Gervin " "I could get 30 or 40 every night real easy, these days"

[QUOTE=G-train]Zone defense is getting too much credit in this thread.[/QUOTE]

You think all wing players just naturally became worse from the field? There were rules implemented and of course it affected the FG of a lot of wing players.

Arguments such as Wade being one of the few close to 50% shooting is an example. He is one of the few players that settles for jumpshots and thus his FG is a little higher.

[QUOTE=plowking]You think all wing players just naturally became worse from the field? There were rules implemented and of course it affected the FG of a lot of wing players. [/QUOTE]

But it didn't? Unless you have some sort of cite that the FG% of wings went down permanently after the rule changes. I'd be really interested in something like that.

Historically, as far as I can see, it's pretty unusual for a prolific scoring wing player to average 50%+ no matter the era. And those that do tend to be in the Hall.

The Big O did it a couple times
West did it once, had lots of 49s
Gervin
Thompson
Dr. J
Bird
Mullin
Dantley
King (before he blew out his knee...)
English
Drexler
Jordan

I can't really think of any other perimeter player who scored in buckets and had 50% although I'm sure I'm missing some. I can think of a lot who had similar FG% to players today -- Greer, Dumars, Moncrief, Dennis Johnson, Havlicek, Jo Jo White, Rick Barry, Mitch Richmond, Starks, Hill, Hardaway, etc. although some of those aren't really prolific (some are in the 20-22 ppg range).

Carmelo is extremely close. A healthy Wade showed us what he can do. Chris Paul was extremely close in only his third year although I guess you wouldn't call 21 ppg prolific (ditto Williams, who did hit 50% but only 18 ppg). Dirk did it his MVP year and had some 48% seasons, which is funny I guess because he's not really a wing (he just plays like one, haha). Kobe has shown flashes of being able to do it -- IIRC he averaged well over 50% in the playoffs last year until he hit the Finals. And yes, I do think a lot of it has to do with players having questionable shot selections a lot of the time.

Well its hard to take a sample of players after and before the handcheck rule as it was reinforced sometime in 06, though originally introduced in 2000 I think.

Though take a look at Richmonds career. As his career went along his FG% got worse and worse with time. He sure as hell didn't become a worse player in his prime. It's just the way wing players are in some way forced to play now. It is a lot more jumpshooting then driving due to the defense.

[QUOTE=plowking]You think all wing players just naturally became worse from the field? There were rules implemented and of course it affected the FG of a lot of wing players. [/QUOTE]

Wing player FG% dropped way before zone started being employed (which was ~2004), so that argument is moot. You're acting like guys like Kobe/TMac/VC/AI were shooting blistering percentages from '99-'04. They weren't.

[QUOTE=Loki]Wing player FG% dropped way before zone started being employed (which was ~2004), so that argument is moot. You're acting like guys like Kobe/TMac/VC/AI were shooting blistering percentages from '99-'04. They weren't.[/QUOTE]

Take a look and you'll realize the majority of them had their career highs in FG% during those years. Of course none of them are going to shot 50% as they aren't MJ. Though I'm saying this did have an impact on their FG numbers.

[QUOTE=plowking]
Though take a look at Richmonds career. As his career went along his FG% got worse and worse with time. He sure as hell didn't become a worse player in his prime.[/QUOTE]

I don't understand. His second and third years he had a nice FG%. Then it erodes until he shoots an OK 44-45%. Then at age 33 in '98 it falls off a cliff. But all this was happening in the early to mid 90s.

[quote=Loki]Wing player FG% dropped way before zone started being employed[/quote]

I know league wide team offenses died in the late 90s (see [url=http://ww.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=418]here[/url]) so it should follow that wings (along with all players) were less efficient, but I'd still love to see (if you have one) a cite with details about wing players' FG% dropping.

Also, according to that link league wide team offensive efficiency improved after the rule changes in 2004.

[QUOTE=plowking]Take a look and you'll realize the majority of them had their career highs in FG% during those years. Of course none of them are going to shot 50% as they aren't MJ. Though I'm saying this did have an impact on their FG numbers.[/QUOTE]

AI has had his career high FG% since zone. Guys like Wade/Leron/Melo have averaged 48-49.5% FG since zone, whereas in the '99-'04 time frame no perimeter player did so. Kobe has shot comparably (46.1% the last two years) on higher ppg volume than he was scoring in the early 00's, and this despite being the primary option. Pierce had both his highest FG% [b]and[/b] highest ppg average in 2006, post-zone. Carter shot comparably in 2007 on similar volume despite being a much older and less explosive player than he was in '00 or '01.

In short: the FG% of these wing players is not a result of the zone.

[QUOTE=Loki]AI has had his career high FG% since zone. Guys like [B]Wade/Leron/Melo [/B]have averaged 48-49.5% FG since zone, whereas in the '99-'04 time frame no perimeter player did so. Kobe has shot comparably (46.1% the last two years) on higher volume than he was scoring in the early 00's, and this despite being the primary option. Pierce had both his highest FG% [b]and[/b] higher ppg average in 2006, post-zone. Carter shot comparably in 2007 on similar volume despite being a much older and less explosive player than he was in '00 or '01.

In short: the FG% of these wing players is not a result of the zone.[/QUOTE]

Of course they are going to, they only played one season without zone. You expect them to have a career high in FG% their rookie season? :roll:

Iverson was on a team where he needed to take a lot of shots and at time ill advised. When put on a team with another scorer of course he is going to cut back and take better shots.


Don't kid yourself Loki. The point of a zone is to force jumpshots. If anything you are supporting that players are now better jumpshooters then before if they are able to maintain a similar FG% with more jumpshots.

[QUOTE=plowking]Of course they are going to, they only played one season without zone. You expect them to have a career high in FG% their rookie season? :roll: [/quote]

I threw them in as more evidence that it's possible to shoot a good % against zone.

[quote]Iverson was on a team where he needed to take a lot of shots and at time ill advised. When put on a team with another scorer of course he is going to cut back and take better shots.[/quote]

This was partially my mistake, but my point stands. I meant that AI shot his best FG% of the previous 8 seasons in 2006 while on the Sixers (not Nuggets), under zone rules.

[QUOTE=plowking]The point of a zone is to force jumpshots. If anything you are supporting that players are now better jumpshooters then before if they are able to maintain a similar FG% with more jumpshots.[/QUOTE]

I would love a cite that wing players take more jump shots (not three pointers, that has been increasing ever since it was introduced -- see my prior link) than they used to before the NBA allowed shading and doubling off the ball. I'm honestly curious and would rep you big time if you have something like that. Otherwise you seem to be assuming that players take more jump shots. In my personal subjective opinion I don't think this is true because there are endless star (and lower tier) players who make a living off penetration. I don't think Steve Nash is exactly an athletic phenom. Pierce is strong but he seems to move in slow motion. And so on. But I could be wrong.

[b]EDIT[/b]: Also, Gervin was considered an incredible jump shooter AFAIK, so how this circles back to the actual topic is questionable.

[QUOTE=inclinerator]no he was bleeding had it been a longer fight charles might have been beheaded. not really but he probably would have lost.[/QUOTE]

[B]He was bleeding because the punch razored him a bit but thats not enough to win a fight dummy :rolleyes: Barkley moved and the slow Shaq missed then Charles picked that 350 lbs **** up from the ground in less than second and even his teamates could not move him then he went on top of Shaq his teamates when over to control Charles from punching Shaq. Charles was way stronger than most people think when he had his feet to the ground it was impossible to move him. Shaq was lucky Charles did not smack him while on top.

The camera shows Shaq`s face and the big guy was scared like a baby:oldlol: :pimp: :banghead: :pimp: [/B]

A Prime Gervin could average around 30PPG and challenge for the scoring title depending on what team he was on.

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]He was bleeding because the punch razored him a bit but thats not enough to win a fight dummy :rolleyes: Barkley moved and the slow Shaq missed then Charles picked that 350 lbs **** up from the ground in less than second and even his teamates could not move him then he went on top of Shaq his teamates when over to control Charles from punching Shaq. Charles was way stronger than most people think when he had his feet to the ground it was impossible to move him. Shaq was lucky Charles did not smack him while on top.

The camera shows Shaq`s face and the big guy was scared like a baby:oldlol: :pimp: :banghead: :pimp: [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree. Personally, I feel that Barkley's "face forward, charge, and punch" and "sidestep and right cross" is far superior to Shaq's "wind up slowly and throw haymaker" and "grab and use my belly."

Personally.

[QUOTE=stephanieg]I would love a cite that wing players take more jump shots (not three pointers, that has been increasing ever since it was introduced -- see my prior link) than they used to before the NBA allowed shading and doubling off the ball. I'm honestly curious and would rep you big time if you have something like that. Otherwise you seem to be assuming that players take more jump shots. In my personal subjective opinion I don't think this is true because there are endless star (and lower tier) players who make a living off penetration. I don't think Steve Nash is exactly an athletic phenom. Pierce is strong but he seems to move in slow motion. And so on. But I could be wrong.

[b]EDIT[/b]: Also, Gervin was considered an incredible jump shooter AFAIK, so how this circles back to the actual topic is questionable.[/QUOTE]

I found some stats, though this included 3 pointers, though I don't see why it shouldn't as it is still a jumpshot. 02-03 was as far back as I could find and 07-08 the most recent. Took your star guards and compared them from the most recent I could find to to furthest back (thus 02-03 and 07-08). In some cases I choose the season prior, like Arenas as he didn't play even half the season. I also chose players season depending on whether their role on the team stayed the same. So for Carter and Iverson I compared them on their former teams where they were the single primary scorer.

Organised by:
Season - percentage of jumpshots taken

Arenas:
02-03 - 68%
06-07 - 75% (Didn't play much this last season so this one was chosen)

Wade
03-04 - 50%
07-08 - 65%

Carmelo
03-04 - 54%
07-08 - 62%

Iverson
02-03 - 72%
06-07 - 74% (Chose this season as he was still with the Sixers this season and had the same role as the season in 02-03)

Bryant
02-03 - 78
07-08 - 74

Nash
02-03 - 72%
07-08 - 85%

McGrady
02-03 - 74%
07-08 - 79%

Hamilton
02-03 - 74%
07-08 - 80%

Carter while on the Raptors
02-03 - 79%
04-05 - 77% (This season choosen as he had a different role on the Nets. Shot 66% this last season)

Billups
Stayed the same

Pierce
Stayed the same

Stojackovic on the Kings
02-03 - 76%
04-05 - 79%

Artest
02-03 - 61%
07-08 - 64%

R. Jefferson
02-03 - 55%
07-08 - 61%

James
03-04 - 67%
07-08 - 60%


Going by those numbers, the trend is that more jumpshots are being taken by players. Bar Kobe and Carter, who already took a lot of jumpshots to begin with, the amount of jumpshots has increased. Also James who now is bigger and just barges his way through the defense.

All numbers and stats can be found here.
[url]http://www.82games.com/FGSORT7.HTM[/url]
[url]http://www.82games.com/teams06.htm[/url]

[QUOTE=Loki]Wing player FG% dropped way before zone started being employed (which was ~2004), so that argument is moot. You're acting like guys like Kobe/TMac/VC/AI were shooting blistering percentages from '99-'04. They weren't.[/QUOTE]

Take a look at the figures I posted above. Most have an increase in jumpshots.