OK, out of curiosity, I searched a bit and Wilt faced Hayes 19 times up to 1972, while in '73 he played 4 games against the Bullets, a team that featured Hayes [B]and [/B]Unseld.
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OK, out of curiosity, I searched a bit and Wilt faced Hayes 19 times up to 1972, while in '73 he played 4 games against the Bullets, a team that featured Hayes [B]and [/B]Unseld.
[QUOTE=Niquesports]I think all would agree they were gifted basketball players but against there peers I would not rank either very high athletically. Would you rank Bird as great an athelet as Dominique Barkley as gifted an athlet as Larry lance Michael Cooper was a better athlet than Magic and they were on the same team. I would agree that Barkley might be the best ahtelt of the players I named if he was only as determined as MJ to be at top shape.[/QUOTE]
[B]Could Larry Nance jump off 1 foot straight up and under the basket (on one leg) at 284 lbs?
Nance was 6`11 205 lbs (rougly later in his career 235 lbs) but silky-light...etc...another type of built to Barkley fluctuated between 252 and 284 lbs most of his career but he felt his deal weight was 260-265 lbs (he felt weaker below that)
But my friend athletic Capacity Most Also Involve [U]Potence[/U], Torso Strength, Legg Strength and especially Interior/Natural Strength...Barkley`s [U]Natural/Interior Strength [/U] was Off the Charts (even his coach in Phily mentioned that Charles was the Strongest Player, naturally he ever coached) and Top of All Time.
Don`t give me the nice looking muscle tone that weight lifting adds bull: rolleyes: ...that just adds to your Natural/Interior strength! but [U]nothing can change your Natural/Interior strength initially [/U](only vitamins from your teens till about 21 years of age)
Also Bird was quite fast for your average 6`9 1/2 er (average) ofcourse not the fastest of ones, he was quick, great 1st step etc
What Bird did not have was POTENCE...but who gives a f-u-c-k.. if you can Shoot like a SG!, Post up (very strong according to weight-thick boned aswell *See Rodman for that) almost in PF style!, Pass and See The Court like a PG!, Play the Game with BOTH HANDS! (what players today can?) and Won`t Go There With His Overall Skills, Fakes, Court Awareness, Timing, Anticipation, B-Ball IQ, Fundamentals etc...HIS WHERE JUST UNCOMPARABLE to Any Player today...
Bird had more of a SG-PG way of Playing (Skill Wise) with PF Post Up Skills and Rebounding than a your typical Pure Sliky, Fast and Leaping SF [/B] :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=indiefan23]I'm not convinced at all that Kareems peers were stronger then Yao's. Although I'm not sure. I don't think we have enough information yet after the rule changes that affected the center position so much and that Yao plays under. Its a much bigger change to the game then like, widening the lane or whatever and allows your opponent to much more easily deal with a traditionally dominant center.
And where does this notion that Magic/Bird/Thomas/Barkley wern't great athletes come from? Man, they were incredible athletes. Bird/Barkley were not strong? Magic wasn't big? Thomas was slow? ;0
Barkley could still jump 40"'s despite his weight. Magic used his speed/coordination/strength at his size to routinely overpower opposing points and guarded 4 positions. Thomas was fast as **** and coordinated as hell. [U][COLOR="DarkGreen"]Bird was strong as an ox and for his size could run fast forever. He was also 100% ambidextrous and could shoot 3's with both hands[/COLOR][/U]. I think this notion exists because MJ came in an athletically dominated everyone in every way but come on already... they were smart players but they were elite gifted athletes as well.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
[B]Exactly recently a couple of months I watched Larry Bird Sports Century and when he was being signed by the Celtics...he was writing with his LEFT HAND...What does that make you think? [/B]
wilt thinks he could score 70 points in this era.
[QUOTE=Mikaiel]Well, just call me when another NBA 7 footer runs a marathon when they're 60. Obviously you're not impressed so it must be pretty common.[/quote]
Uh, its impressive but has no bearing on 'can he ball at 48' which I'm saying no, he can't.
[quote]Only 3 guys but that includes the top 2. In the end it even things out. And an extra 2 games isn't a big deal. Let's say it is. Then you can make the argument those other guys in the top 10 are there just because Wilt was in the other conference so he couldn't take rebounds away from them. Just like the No.2 and No.3 guy.[/quote]
I don't think it works that way. Wilt and Nate make up what, 15 games together? That's not enough to bring the averages of every other west big down that much. The best boarders were in the east which created parity. In the west were two elite rebounders and the rest who they cleaned up on.
[quote]And if Duncan played in the 60's and got that many boards, we'd be arguing right now because you'd think there would be no way he would dominate in the 90's.[/quote]
If Duncan played in an era where they didn't box out in the NBA finals yea, I would be arguing that his stats were inflated and his dominance were an indication of it's weakness. I would also be saying he would have a tough time dominating in the 90's because in the 90s Tim Duncan DID NOT DOMINATE! He was one of the best of a huge crop of fantastic players.
TD will be a hall of famer but would Wilt make it? His game was not as polished as Duncan's because he spent the majority of his career playing against people who couldn't sniff his jock without being dominated by him. He's great for doing it but because of that I just see holes in his game. Competition raises your game and makes you a better player. Thats why they sent Yao to play in the NBA: because they knew he would never be able to compete at a higher level if he stayed in China.
Duncan did have that competition his whole career. Watch this NBA finals:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTOPU5SvtIQ&feature=related[/url]
And tell me you see anything resembling Dwight Howard or Duncan. Or tell me you see someone like Iverson that Wilt has to try to defend in the paint and not pick up fouls against. Its just not there and it make's Wilt's game weak because when you see him play you can just tell how raw and undeveloped it is. He didn't have the advantages Duncan did, but thats a big reason why Duncan is better.
Heres the 1967 east finals and its still not much better.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVtr2t7SvFE[/url]
I'm seen lots of rookies who's games looked more developed honestly. And its not so much Wilt's fault as the game hadn't developed much yet. I mean, its the finals and they're giving people 2 feet of space and not boxing out for boards and the defense is just not sophisticated. Wilt is 30 here btw and already nearing the end of his prime. I mean, Wilt's size advantage as he catches a lob pass over the top and dunks on someone is present in nearly every single scoring/defensive play and the fact its pretty obvious.
Side note: Nice dunk on Russel at 1:20 though. That's vicious!
[quote]Hakeem was a better player overall, but I think a prime Shaq was more dominant than a prime Hakeem. But that's another debate.[/quote]
He averaged more points. I think thats it.
[quote]All I wanted to say was LeBron or Wade had holes in their games, sometimes pretty big ones. Kobe doesn't. He's not elite in every aspect of his game, but he's got no real weaknesses. His post game is not as good as Jordan's ? Well that's like saying he can't rebound like Rodman ... His post game is good enough.[/quote]
I don't think his post game is good enough at all. When Kobe gets pushed he lives and dies by the 3 because under tough defenses he really has nothing else unless someone else initiates the offense for him. And when he does get aggressively defended his passing/creating game is crazy weak too as he just seems to have issues making the right decision as opposed to jackin up some 3 pointer while being triple teamed. His shot selection has improved steadily but again he always has and probably always will force way too many shots. Lastly Kobe is a totally 100% lackluster leader. I don't know how many times I've seen him scowl at teammates but you can just tell from body language he has difficulty getting along with his teammates and you can tell from how he behaves that he doesn't make much of an attempt to correct it and create a winning attitude on his team. And I consider that a big part of a star athlete's game. I'm sorry, I honestly hate Kobe. He's really improved these past couple years though so I begrudgeingly give him credit. Kobe's problem: he's figuring out things at 30 he should have picked up when he was 23.
[qutoe]I'm not saying he could play a game against prime Shaq and humiliate him. But I just don't see how he could be anything less than a Dwight Howard if he played today. He would still dominate physically.[/quote]
Dude, how would he? Prime Shaq daddy is the same height, 75 pounds heavier and has so much more game in him. How would he box out Shaq for rebounds when he really didn't box out anyone for anything? Litterally, someone would have to take Wilt aside and show him where to put his feet and how to move his ass backward to force the other player out of the lane. How is that guy going to drop in a game and dominate Shaquille O'Neal?
[quote]He'd be in the top 2 most athletic players today. Or even in the 90's. Any era. He would be a 7'1 Dwight Howard. I don't care if you think the 60's and 70's were a weak era, the fact is Kareem played against the exact same competition[/quote]
After the ABA merger Kareem never had more then 13 RPG. Still in his prime in the 80's he never averaged more then 10 RPG in 80-81. After that his boards declined to 8.7 and 7.5. Did he suck? Not really: he just was not the best rebounder in the league for the most part and the scrubs he and Wilt made a killing off of were drying up. He was getting old but that's hardly the whole story. He spent the rest of his career around the 6 RPG mark.
[quote]and he couldn't do some of the things Wilt did. Even though Wilt was in his 30's. So maybe Kareem was not that good then ? Then I guess Hakeem wasn't good either, because Kareem played extremely well against him. But then that means Robinson, Shaq, Zo and Mutombo are all crappy players.[/QUOTE]
Uh, yea, Kareem also was on the best team in basketball. But lets check it out. Before 86 I'm guessnig Hakeem probably had about twice the boards/blocks/steals as their averages suggest. I'm guessing since they nearly swept the Lakers to the finals in 85-86 Kareem wasn't overly effective there. 86 on Dream basicly handed it to him. 20 boards to 4... ouch.
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=abdulka01&p2=olajuha01[/url]
I 'love' Hakeem. :)
[QUOTE=nbastatus]wilt thinks he could score 70 points in this era.[/QUOTE]
Do you think he could? How about sleep with 100,000 women?
[QUOTE=Sir Charles]:applause:
[B]Exactly recently a couple of months I watched Larry Bird Sports Century and when he was being signed by the Celtics...he was writing with his LEFT HAND...What does that make you think? [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, it tells me he eats and writes with his left hand (like many people who use both hands equally do) but because I'm not an idiot I know that he plays right handed hover is 'ambidexterous' like I said in my post. It makes me think that Larry Bird spent a summer dribbleing/shooting every single day with his left to make sure he could use it to play just as much as his right... cuz thats what he did.
You're a joke Sir Charles.
[QUOTE=Psileas]OK, out of curiosity, I searched a bit and Wilt faced Hayes 19 times up to 1972, while in '73 he played 4 games against the Bullets, a team that featured Hayes [B]and [/B]Unseld.[/QUOTE]
So 19 games out of 1045? I'm not impressed. The NBA was 'full' of scrubs. Thats why he averaged 3 times the boards as teh guy in 20'th and twice as many as 7'th.
[QUOTE=nbastatus]wilt thinks he could score 70 points in this era.[/QUOTE]
and he would be correct.
[QUOTE]So 19 games out of 1045? I'm not impressed. The NBA was 'full' of scrubs. Thats why he averaged 3 times the boards as teh guy in 20'th and twice as many as 7'th.[/QUOTE]
19 of the 257 actually that he played between the seasons 1969-72, when he faced solely Hayes. And another 4 of 82 in '73, when he faced the combined duo of Hayes-Unseld.
[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Could Larry Nance jump off 1 foot straight up and under the basket (on one leg) at 284 lbs?
Nance was 6`11 205 lbs (rougly later in his career 235 lbs) but silky-light...etc...another type of built to Barkley fluctuated between 252 and 284 lbs most of his career but he felt his deal weight was 260-265 lbs (he felt weaker below that)
But my friend athletic Capacity Most Also Involve [U]Potence[/U], Torso Strength, Legg Strength and especially Interior/Natural Strength...Barkley`s [U]Natural/Interior Strength [/U] was Off the Charts (even his coach in Phily mentioned that Charles was the Strongest Player, naturally he ever coached) and Top of All Time.
Don`t give me the nice looking muscle tone that weight lifting adds bull: rolleyes: ...that just adds to your Natural/Interior strength! but [U]nothing can change your Natural/Interior strength initially [/U](only vitamins from your teens till about 21 years of age)
Also Bird was quite fast for your average 6`9 1/2 er (average) ofcourse not the fastest of ones, he was quick, great 1st step etc
What Bird did not have was POTENCE...but who gives a f-u-c-k.. if you can Shoot like a SG!, Post up (very strong according to weight-thick boned aswell *See Rodman for that) almost in PF style!, Pass and See The Court like a PG!, Play the Game with BOTH HANDS! (what players today can?) and Won`t Go There With His Overall Skills, Fakes, Court Awareness, Timing, Anticipation, B-Ball IQ, Fundamentals etc...HIS WHERE JUST UNCOMPARABLE to Any Player today...
Bird had more of a SG-PG way of Playing (Skill Wise) with PF Post Up Skills and Rebounding than a your typical Pure Sliky, Fast and Leaping SF [/B] :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Why is it that this is the only place where nobodies know more than people that played the game been around the game and covered the game. I have never read any article heard an interview or seen with my own eye anything that would prove Bird or Barkley to be incredible athlets WHy is it that when ever someone makes a point on a player people on ISh take it as an insult to that player.Bird could do many things but few will remember him as a great athelet Great Basketball player yes
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]A 6'2" White SG couldn't be a star but a 5'11 165 lb Black SG can win 4 scoring titles and average 30PPG several times?
[IMG]http://www.cavsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/AllenIverson.jpg[/IMG] Look at how athletic
People have grossly overrated the athleticism of today and it's impact on the game. If size/athleticism was the only prerequisite for success in the NBA, then guys like Jason Richardson and Josh Smith would be sure-fire hall of famers. Also, most players in this era don't even use their size correctly. Zydrunas Ilguaskas is what 7'6"? When was the last time you saw him in the post? The guy's purely a jump shooter and he isn't an anomally, he's the norm. Oversized, soft jump-shooting big men who want nothing to do with banging down low and playing tough... that's today's NBA.
And why on earth wouldn't Bill Russel be the same defensive force he was back then? I mean Ben Wallace (6'9" same height as Russell) had a string of seasons where he averaged 13+ RPG and 2-3 BPG.... playing CENTER. Some of the best defensive players in this decade are some of the more unathletic players in the game- Tim Duncan, Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier, etc.
In summary, SKILL>>>>>>>ATHLETICISM[/QUOTE]
You're right, and Allen Iverson is more skilled than Jerry West was. Watching West try to guard Iverson would be funnier than a Chappelle show skit.
And Russell wouldn't be the same because he's not playing against undersized, unathletic players with a fraction of the skill and strategies players have/know now.
[QUOTE=Younggrease]and he would be correct.[/QUOTE]
No.
[QUOTE=indiefan23]So 19 games out of 1045? I'm not impressed. The NBA was 'full' of scrubs. Thats why he averaged 3 times the boards as teh guy in 20'th and twice as many as 7'th.[/QUOTE]
Voters for the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (player), Marv Albert (media), Al Attles (team), Red Auerbach (team), Elgin Baylor (team), Dave Bing (player), Larry Bird (team), Marty Blake (team), Fran Blinebury (media), Bill Bradley (player), Hubie Brown (team), Wilt Chamberlain (player), Mitch Chortkoff (media), Bob Cousy (player), Billy Cunningham (team), Chuck Daly (team), David DuPree (media), Wayne Embry (team), Julius Erving (player), Joe Gilmartin (media), Sam Goldaper (media), Alex Hannum (team), Lester Harrison (team), John Havlicek (player), Chick Hearn (media), Red Holzman (team), Phil Jasner (media), Earvin Johnson (player), John Kerr (player), Leonard Koppet (media), Bob Lanier (player), Frank Layden (team), Leonard Lewin (media), Jack McCallum (media), Dick McGuire (team), George Mikan (player), Bob Pettit (player), Harvey Pollack (team), Jack Ramsay (team), Willis Reed (team), Oscar Robertson (player), Bill Russell (player), Bob Ryan (media), Dolph Schayes (player), Bill Sharman (player), Gene Shue (team), Isiah Thomas (team), Wes Unseld (team), Peter Vecsey (media), Jerry West (team)
Kareem
Moses
Wilt
Russ
Pettit
Cowens
Reed
DeBusschere
Thurmond
Unseld
Hayes
Walton
Lucas
These players from the 60's and 70's were pick by the above I guess they dont agree with you that the NBA was full of "scurbs" in the 60's and 70's but Im sure you know more about basketball than these nobodies
[QUOTE=Niquesports]Voters for the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (player), Marv Albert (media), Al Attles (team), Red Auerbach (team), Elgin Baylor (team), Dave Bing (player), Larry Bird (team), Marty Blake (team), Fran Blinebury (media), Bill Bradley (player), Hubie Brown (team), Wilt Chamberlain (player), Mitch Chortkoff (media), Bob Cousy (player), Billy Cunningham (team), Chuck Daly (team), David DuPree (media), Wayne Embry (team), Julius Erving (player), Joe Gilmartin (media), Sam Goldaper (media), Alex Hannum (team), Lester Harrison (team), John Havlicek (player), Chick Hearn (media), Red Holzman (team), Phil Jasner (media), Earvin Johnson (player), John Kerr (player), Leonard Koppet (media), Bob Lanier (player), Frank Layden (team), Leonard Lewin (media), Jack McCallum (media), Dick McGuire (team), George Mikan (player), Bob Pettit (player), Harvey Pollack (team), Jack Ramsay (team), Willis Reed (team), Oscar Robertson (player), Bill Russell (player), Bob Ryan (media), Dolph Schayes (player), Bill Sharman (player), Gene Shue (team), Isiah Thomas (team), Wes Unseld (team), Peter Vecsey (media), Jerry West (team)
Kareem
Moses
Wilt
Russ
Pettit
Cowens
Reed
DeBusschere
Thurmond
Unseld
Hayes
Walton
Lucas
These players from the 60's and 70's were pick by the above I guess they dont agree with you that the NBA was full of "scurbs" in the 60's and 70's but Im sure you know more about basketball than these nobodies[/QUOTE]
That's not how you make a point dude. If I find a single ex-nba player, preferably a great, saying something outlandish and stupid, I can claim it as truth because he played in the NBA and none of us did?
Regardless, these players' greatness should be examined not how they would do across eras, but how they played within their own.