Jordan 69 pt game vs Kobe 81 point game

The Cavs in 89-90 were the 9th most efficient defensive team in the league. Toronto in 05-06? 28th :roll:

Only a true moron(or a groupie) would think Kobe went up against better D.

69/18/6/4/1 against a playoff team and a FAAAAAR better defensive team >>>>> 81/3 stls against a sh*tty squad that plays no D.

[quote]Instead Kobe faced Mo Pete, Jalen Rose, and combos with other athletic players,[/quote]

Jalen Rose :roll:. The guy who'd make everybody's Worst Defenders of the Post-2000 Era" List. I saw 2 years of this bum in Chicago and he is without a doubt the worst perimeter defender I've seen this decade. He isn't athletic either. Also, who the heck are these "other athletic players" and if they're such a big deal then why were the Raptors the 3rd worst defensive team in the league last season? And since when does athleticism = automatically better/good D? Do you consider LeBron a good defender?

I also find it funny how in the Hill vs. James thread you were constantly talking abt how today's league is [i]easier[/i] and Grant did it in a "much better and tougher league". Yet no such talk this time around. How come?

You also need to go and watch the game if you think MJ wasn't constantly doubled and trapped that night.

I wouldn't say Price is light years ahead of Nash's defense. Probably better to an extent, but definetely not light years. Explain how he is 'light years' better? Are you one of those fans who presumes EVERYTHING was better back in the day? Or do you just hate Kobe?

And I realize Jordan was doubled that game. I didn't have to say it, because it was known. People were acting like Kobe wasn't, and that his defenders were mince meat compared to those backcourt Cavs players who were put on Jordan. When at least, they were about equal. So you can't use that as a means to diminish Kobe's performance. The reason why the Cavs had a good defense, was their athletic big men. Not because of their guard's defense. That's why Jordan routinely torched them, and why in 1993 they went to get the supposed "Jordan Stopper" in Gerald Wilkins. But Craig Ehlo, and Winston Bennett aren't near as athletic as the players Kobe faced for his 81. They can't contest with shots, and use explosive innate abilities to help them play defense. I have both games on tape, and it isn't even close. I'm not slighting Jordan. That performance was crazy. Yet, not near as crazy as 81 points. Better all-around game, in an extra 5 - 10 minutes compared to what Kobe played? Sure. Which is all the more reason, why 81 points is ridiculous. Second most points in a game in NBA HISTORY. And it was done by a 6'6 shooting guard, shooting mostly perimeter and long range bombs. That takes a hell of alot of stamina to get your legs into long shots, and to shoot as many times as he did, at such a great percentage. It was nuts. I think Kobe scored something like 20 points in the last 4 or 5 minutes of the game. It was incredible. As was Jordan's feat. Just not AS amazing, due to the context. In my opinion, at least. And as we know, we all have opinions. Plus, I don't think Jordan's 69 is his best performance...

LOL Loki once again, a total 90s NBA library.

[QUOTE=Indian guy]I also find it funny how in the Hill vs. James thread you were constantly talking abt how today's league is [i]easier[/i] and Grant did it in a "much better and tougher league". Yet no such talk this time around. How come?[/QUOTE]
It is a more difficult league then. Hands down. But that doesn't make me believe 69 points in 50 minutes, was more impressive than 81 in 41 minutes. Because I have tapes of both games, and can compare them. The Cavs weren't a physical team that knocked your block off. They were a finesse team, and were good defenders not because of their permiter, but because of their interior. It wasn't like Jordan was being defensed by great permiter defenders that game against Cleveland. There is a reason he routinely made them his b1tch. And why they searched desperately for years, for an athletic two guard who could at least contend with his athletic ability, let alone his game. In comes Gerald Wilkins in 1992 - 1993.

[QUOTE]You also need to go and watch the game if you think MJ wasn't constantly doubled and trapped that night.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I've watched it. Recently actually. And I never said he wasn't double and tripple teamed. But when it comes down to it numbers wise, 81 to me is more impressive than 69 in an overtime win. 12 more points, in about ten less minutes of play. Going against double teams, and triple teams that Jordan faced, and shooting long range bombs ... which takes a real toll on your legs. I just find 81 more amazing than his Jordan's 69 performance. And as I've said, I've seen better Jordan games than his 69 / 18 in Overtime.

[QUOTE=Money 23]I wouldn't say Price is light years ahead of Nash's defense. Probably better to an extent, but definetely not light years. Explain how he is 'light years' better? Are you one of those fans who presumes EVERYTHING was better back in the day? Or do you just hate Kobe? [/quote]

How does me noting that Price's defense was way better than Nash's (your analogy, not mine) make me a "Kobe hater" considering that Steve Nash didn't guard Kobe in that game? Price was simply a much better defender; I've seen both of them. Price was more fundamental, gave more effort, and was gritty to boot. Nash is...well...Nash.

[quote]And I realize Jordan was doubled that game. I didn't have to say it, because it was known. People were acting like Kobe wasn't, and that his defenders were mince meat compared to those backcourt Cavs players who were put on Jordan.[/quote]

Did I personally say that? Kobe was doubled (not as much as some fans would have you believe, but he was), but the actual quality of the defenses in question can be viewed objectively, as I've tried to show you. As to individual defenders, I really don't think that Jalen Rose is much more athletic than Craig Ehlo. Don't know what else to say except that I think you're simultaneously overestimating the athleticism of Toronto's defenders while underestimating that of Cleveland's defenders.

[quote]When at least, they were about equal. So you can't use that as a means to diminish Kobe's performance.[/quote]

I have never -- as in "not once" -- tried to diminish Kobe's performance. Not when it happened, and not in the intervening months.

[quote] Second most points in a game in NBA HISTORY. And it was done by a 6'6 shooting guard, shooting mostly perimeter and long range bombs. That takes a hell of alot of stamina to get your legs into long shots, and to shoot as many times as he did, at such a great percentage. It was nuts. [/quote]

I agree.

[quote]we all have opinions. Plus, I don't think Jordan's 69 is his best performance...[/QUOTE]

Neither do I.

I think the MAvs game was better because of the quality of team but I like Kobe's 81. The reason is there a was a moment of time in the game where you just saw Kobe say, "screw this im not going to lose to Toronto" They go from being down 20 to up 20 in mere matter of minutes. You could see the fear and helplessness in the defenders faces, Kobe took their hearts. Thats why I liked Kobe's game. You can actually pick out the moment where he rips each Toronto defenders heart out.

[QUOTE=Money 23]And I realize Jordan was doubled that game. I didn't have to say it, because it was known.[/quote]

Ummm, you said MJ going up against Ehlo/Price was the equivalent of Kobe FACING [B]SINGLE[/b] coverage against Sura/Nash.

[quote]People were acting like Kobe wasn't, and that his defenders were mince meat compared to those backcourt Cavs players who were put on Jordan.[/quote]

Compared to the Cavs the Raptors are indeed mince meat defensively. 9th best versus 3rd worst. Think about it.

[quote]The reason why the Cavs had a good defense, was their athletic big men. Not because of their guard's defense.[/quote]

Defense is a TEAM game. The Cavs didn't have an intimidating presence in the paint who you can say held the team together. Nobody ala a TD/Shaq/Hakeem/D-Rob.

[quote]But Craig Ehlo, and Winston Bennett aren't near as athletic as the players Kobe faced for his 81.[/quote]

Once again, who are these athletic players Kobe faced while going up against 3rd ****tiest defensive team in the league? Rose? :roll:. Peterson is a decent athlete, nothing more. The Raptors don't have anyone else in the back court(around Kobe's height) who I'd term as athletic.

[quote]I have both games on tape, and it isn't even close.[/quote]

So, 69/18/6/4/1 [i]isn't even close[/i] to 81/nothing because MJ didn't go up against a 27-win, 3rd worst defensive team in the league that featured IMO the worst perimeter defender of the post-2000 era in Jalen Rose(who guarded Kobe quite a lot that night). Is that the reason why it [i]isn't even close[/i] to you?

[QUOTE=Money 23]It is a more difficult league then. Hands down. But that doesn't make me believe 69 points in 50 minutes, was more impressive than 81 in 41 minutes.[/quote]

The question wasn't 69 in 50 vs. 81 in 42. The question on the first page is asking which is the better [b]GAME[/b]? 69/18/6/4/1 against a playoff squad that also happens to be the 9th best defensive team in the league is clearly superior in my eyes.

[quote]It wasn't like Jordan was being defensed by great permiter defenders that game against Cleveland. There is a reason he routinely made them his b1tch. And why they searched desperately for years, for an athletic two guard who could at least contend with his athletic ability, let alone his game. In comes Gerald Wilkins in 1992 - 1993.[/quote]

The Cavs DID have an athletic 2-guard in Ron Harper. He fared no better than Ehlo or Wilkins. MJ simply liked playing against Cleveland. They were one of the few teams who used to guard him 1-on-1(they smartened up, eventually) and MJ obviously took it as an insult and used to go extra hard at them.

[quote]And as I've said, I've seen better Jordan games than his 69 / 18 in Overtime.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I think most people who've seen a lot of MJ will tell you that's not his best game. Even though he was near perfect at all aspects of the game that night.

[QUOTE]So, 69/18/6/4/1 isn't even close to 81/nothing because MJ didn't go up against a 27-win[/QUOTE]

Isn't even close? :confusedshrug: Kobe had 6 rebounds and 3 steals...but I guess that's nothing...I guess since Jordan had 18 rebounds (did Cavs even have a big man on that team, a good post presence who can grab them rebounds?)...does mean that Kobe didn't do anything but score...last I checked 6 rebounds and 3 steals a game is more then 95% of SGs production a game in this league.
I don't know about you guys but this kid lost every credibility, I see people complain about Kobe groupies yet this is probably the biggest Jordan homer I've seen in my life. I can understand if Jordan impressed you more, I'm fine with you saying he had the better all around game because he did...but claiming it ain't [B]even close[/B] is a case of unbelievable denial.

If you want to play that game buddy...Kobe sh*ts on Jordan's overtime win with his 69 points/18 rebounds when Kobe he OUTSCORED a western conference champions by HIMSELF aftter 3 quarters...you're just mad that Kobe could probably have already 3-4 games over 69 throught FIRST half of his career...and being a 2nd option for 8 years of his career.

[QUOTE=West-Side]...but claiming it ain't [B]even close[/B] is a case of unbelievable denial.[/quote]

So you're saying Money 23(apparently a big MJ fan) is in denial? He's the one who said 69/18/6/4/1 isn't even close to 81.

[QUOTE=West-Side]Isn't even close? :confusedshrug: Kobe had 6 rebounds and 3 steals...but I guess that's nothing...I guess since Jordan had 18 rebounds (did Cavs even have a big man on that team, a good post presence who can grab them rebounds?)...[/QUOTE]

Actually, Cleveland had 3 big men over 8 rebounds per game that year: Nance (8.3 rpg), Daugherty (9.1 rpg), and Williams (8.1 rpg). Toronto only had Bosh at 9.2 and then no other player above 6.4 rpg (Villanueva). So I'm not sure why you'd make that comment...

I just made a big post but it didn't proceed...not bothering to retype it. I talk about about how 9 RPG in those days aren't that impressive, since today 13 RPG would clinch you a rebounding title, while back in the day dozen of players had that mark in the league. I'm pretty sure Bosh would get well over 12 RPG in those days, deep down Loki knows it too.

I'm out.

mj's was better. 69, 18, 6 oh my goddd! they showed this game on espn classic today.

All numbers put aside Kobes performance was simply more impressive because of the complete momentum swing it caused. MJ needed OT to win the game, Kobe brought back the lackers from -20 to lead them to a near 20 point victory.
Also, in Kobe's 81 game Kwame and Odom each got 10 rebounds, Mihm had 8 and George got 7. MJ's game? 2nd leading rebounder was Pippen with 8, and the two big men, Cartwright and and Ho Grant each got only 5. Of course MJ would get many rebounds with both big men not producing.
Not that it was not a great rebounding performance, but you have to put it into context.

well naturally mj's 69 was a better overall better game. it gets bigger props because it was a playoff game as well.

but for some who try to underestimate kobe's performance, just aren't fans of the guy...(what a surprise)

there was a few articles w/quotes from other players of the league after kobe's 81. a few of them noted that they'd have trouble shooting 46 times in a game. it takes a lot of conditioning to shoot that many shots. they noted their legs and arms would be very tired.

kobe did this in what, 42 mins? and he was VERY efficient in the process.

just accept that that scoring 81 is hard. no one but wilt out did it and he took just a regulation game to pull it off.

some of you touched on the 62 againt the mavs. his 56 point game in 2002 against memphis was another game where he did it in 3 quarters and wasn't needed in the 4th and he was very efficient in that one as well.

now 69/18 for mj...the 18 boards is a very remarkable accomplishment as well. that pushes his game over kobe's.