Shaq 96-2002 versus 87-93 Jordan

[QUOTE]You say Pippen would be top 5 today??
Who is Pippen better then???[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]He isn't better then Tim duncan

He isn't better then CP3.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. This is a matter of opinion. My point was that there is a larger gap between where MJ fans rate Pippen and the typical ranking of him than there is between me Jordan's ranking.

Duncan is past his prime, although still very good. Many, if not most, people think Kevin Durant>Paul this year yet Pippen would not be better? As to Wade, what he is doing now with scrubs is comparable to what Pippen did with scrubs for 80% of 95' so how is it a stretch to say he was at a similar level?

It is hard to project players into different years. What is clear is that when he played he was considered a top 5 player for several seasons and some people had him as high as second and third. Could the argument be made that there more great players today then in the mid-90's and hence he could have been top 5 then in his prime but not today? Judge yourself:

Top players in the mid-90's (1994-1996 to be specific): Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Pippen, Malone, Hill, Robinson, Payton, Ewing, Barkley, Richmond, Mourning, Penny, T. Hardaway (no order)
Top players in 2010: Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Carmelo, Durant, Paul, Deron, Roy, Bosh, Howard, Duncan (no order)

I don't think there are more great players today than there were back then. If anything there were more back then. Today we have only one GOAT candidate caliber player in/near his prime playing (Lebron, not Kobe, for the MJ fans reading this who are wondering :oldlol: ), another top 10 all-time player in/near his prime, top 10 all-time Duncan past his prime and none of the other guys on the list right now look to be top 20-25 all-time players other than maybe Paul. It is too soon to project how good prime Durant will be. I can't see Roy, Deron, Carmelo, Dirk, or Bosh reaching the top 25 all-time. The mid-90's featured two GOAT candidate caliber players (Jordan and Shaq), another top 10 all-time player at his peak (Hakeem), and a few top 20-25 all-time players in/near their primes (Malone, Pippen, Barkley, Robinson).

[QUOTE]Where do you rank LJ all0time.[/QUOTE]

I haven't given it much thought because he is going to move up every year for the next few years. He isn't like Kobe or Duncan where most of their careers are over and you can get a good idea of where they fall. I think Lebron has a very good chanc at winding up top 5 all-time and maybe even the GOAT. He actually has a decent chance of becoming the "majority GOAT" because of merit but also because the same forces that elevated Jordan so far past Kareem, Wilt, Russell, et al. will work to do the same with Lebron vis-a-vis Jordan. It will be fun to watch how MJ fans react if that happens. :D

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]I disagree. This is a matter of opinion. My point was that there is a larger gap between where MJ fans rate Pippen and the typical ranking of him than there is between me Jordan's ranking.

Duncan is past his prime, although still very good. Many, if not most, people think Kevin Durant>Paul this year yet Pippen would not be better? As to Wade, what he is doing now with scrubs is comparable to what Pippen did with scrubs for 80% of 95' so how is it a stretch to say he was at a similar level?

It is hard to project players into different years. What is clear is that when he played he was considered a top 5 player for several seasons and some people had him as high as second and third. Could the argument be made that there more great players today then in the mid-90's and hence he could have been top 5 then in his prime but not today? Judge yourself:

Top players in the mid-90's (1994-1996 to be specific): Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Pippen, Malone, Hill, Robinson, Payton, Ewing, Barkley, Richmond, Mourning, Penny, T. Hardaway (no order)
Top players in 2010: Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Carmelo, Durant, Paul, Deron, Roy, Bosh, Howard, Duncan (no order)

I don't think there are more great players today than there were back then. If anything there were more back then. Today we have only one GOAT candidate caliber player in/near his prime playing (Lebron, not Kobe, for the MJ fans reading this who are wondering :oldlol: ), another top 10 all-time player in/near his prime, top 10 all-time Duncan past his prime and none of the other guys on the list right now look to be top 20-25 all-time players other than maybe Paul. It is too soon to project how good prime Durant will be. I can't see Roy, Deron, Carmelo, Dirk, or Bosh reaching the top 25 all-time. The mid-90's featured two GOAT candidate caliber players (Jordan and Shaq), another top 10 all-time player at his peak (Hakeem), and a few top 20-25 all-time players in/near their primes (Malone, Pippen, Barkley, Robinson).



I haven't given it much thought because he is going to move up every year for the next few years. He isn't like Kobe or Duncan where most of their careers are over and you can get a good idea of where they fall. I think Lebron has a very good chanc at winding up top 5 all-time and maybe even the GOAT. He actually has a decent chance of becoming the "majority GOAT" because of merit but also because the same forces that elevated Jordan so far past Kareem, Wilt, Russell, et al. will work to do the same with Lebron vis-a-vis Jordan. It will be fun to watch how MJ fans react if that happens. :D[/QUOTE]
LOL A matter of opinion? LOL so you admit kevin durant is better this seson then Pippen then?

LOL Wade is better then Pippen. Where are you coming from with this crap and WHen Wade retires he will be ahead of pippen. They are not at any similar level. Wade is making a case for 3rd best SG. Wade is better then Pippen.(Fact)

You still didn't tell me how Pippen is better then Cp3. I am still waiting.

[QUOTE]so you admit kevin durant is better this seson then Pippen then? [/QUOTE]

:roll: Durant is a better scorer than Pippen ever was but that is it. Pippen crushes him when you look at them overall.

Scoring: Durant>Pippen
Playmaking: Pippen>>>Durant
Rebounding: Pippen>Durant
Defense: Pippen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Durant

[QUOTE]. Where are you coming from with this crap and WHen Wade retires he will be ahead of pippen. [/QUOTE]

Ahead? Maybe but if he is it won't be by much. To be well ahead of Pippen he would have to be in the top 15 all-time conversation and I don't think he is that good. Wade may wind up 20th and Pippen 24th. So what?

[QUOTE]Wade is making a case for 3rd best SG. [/QUOTE]

We shall see. Wade has a history of injuries and his game relies a lot on athleticism. We have to see if he has staying power. I don't see him as better than Jerry West or Kobe. He could be better than Drexler or Iverson, though.

[QUOTE]You still didn't tell me how Pippen is better then Cp3.[/QUOTE]

If Durant>CP3 this year then Pippen>CP3.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:roll: Durant is a better scorer than Pippen ever was but that is it. Pippen crushes him when you look at them overall.

Scoring: Durant>Pippen
Playmaking: Pippen>>>Durant
Rebounding: Pippen>Durant
Defense: Pippen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Durant



Ahead? Maybe but if he is it won't be by much. To be well ahead of Pippen he would have to be in the top 15 all-time conversation and I don't think he is that good. Wade may wind up 20th and Pippen 24th. So what?



We shall see. Wade has a history of injuries and his game relies a lot on athleticism. We have to see if he has staying power. I don't see him as better than Jerry West or Kobe. He could be better than Drexler or Iverson, though.



If Durant>CP3 this year then Pippen>CP3.[/QUOTE]
I will be back in a few.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:roll: Durant is a better scorer than Pippen ever was but that is it. Pippen crushes him when you look at them overall.

Scoring: Durant>Pippen
Playmaking: Pippen>>>Durant
Rebounding: Pippen>Durant
Defense: Pippen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Durant



Ahead? Maybe but if he is it won't be by much. To be well ahead of Pippen he would have to be in the top 15 all-time conversation and I don't think he is that good. Wade may wind up 20th and Pippen 24th. So what?



We shall see. Wade has a history of injuries and his game relies a lot on athleticism. We have to see if he has staying power. I don't see him as better than Jerry West or Kobe. He could be better than Drexler or Iverson, though.



If Durant>CP3 this year then Pippen>CP3.[/QUOTE]
Durant is avging 7 rebounds a game and rising. Where are you getting this >>>>>>>>x10 from?? KD defense has improved and in the top 10 in defensive win shares.
Also ou failed to mention how KD is the way better scorer not just > better. He is also the way better FT shooter.

Juju, the following players are clearly better than Durant: Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and Carmelo. The following have a legit case over Durant: Duncan, Paul, Deron, Howard. Since Durant>prime Pippen does that mean prime Pippen would be the 10th or 11th best player today (I assume you will say Pippen>Deron but you probably would stand by the others)? Then there are players like Roy, Nash, and Bosh. Are they better than Pippen too?

Obviously I disagree with you but I am trying to get a clear read on where you stand. You said Pippen would be top 10 today in another thread but if Durant>Pippen that almost automatically means Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and Carmelo are better. Add Durant and that is six players right there that >Pippen according to you. That puts him 7th. You said the 2010 versions of Duncan and Paul>Pippen. That puts him 9th. Was he better than Howard, Deron, Roy, Nash, and Bosh? Hell, I know you love Gasol. Gasol>Pip?

Durant may wind up being a better rebounder but that is speculation. We are comparing prime Pippen to Durant. Prime Pippen was almost top 20 in the league in rebounding before Rodman joined the team and gobbled up such a high percentage of boards. Pippen did this as a SF. Durant is averaging 7 boards a game. That is run of the mill for a SF.

[QUOTE]KD defense has improved and in the top 10 in defensive win shares.[/QUOTE]

That goes to show you the win share stat is a joke. You are a Bulls fan, right? According to win shares Noah>>>Rose, Deng>>Rose, Salmons>Rose, and Taj Gibson=Rose.

You are comparing the defense of the GOAT defensive SF who is arguably also the GOAT perimeter defender with Durant's? :wtf:

[QUOTE]Also ou failed to mention how KD is the way better scorer not just > better.[/QUOTE]

True but we have to consider their roles. Pippen was always tasked with being his team's primary playmaker. He couldn't just focus on scoring. He had a pass first mentality and role. You can't compare their scoring at face value. Durant today is a 28 ppg guy. Pippen was never capable of that but I could see him scoring 24-25 ppg if his role was the same as Durant's. He scored 22 ppg without Jordan even when he was tasked as the team's playmaker (and defensive anchor. Durant has to expend little energy on defense). In 92' he scored 21 ppg alongside Jordan and did the same in 96' and 97' when healthy.

Yeah, Durant also is a much better shooter than Pippen ever was, both at FT's and FG's.

How about the rest, though? Durant is average at best at playmaking and defense. He is average at rebounding. All he does better than Pippen is score.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Juju, the following players are clearly better than Durant: Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and Carmelo. The following have a legit case over Durant: Duncan, Paul, Deron, Howard. Since Durant>prime Pippen does that mean prime Pippen would be the 10th or 11th best player today (I assume you will say Pippen>Deron but you probably would stand by the others)? Then there are players like Roy, Nash, and Bosh. Are they better than Pippen too?

Obviously I disagree with you but I am trying to get a clear read on where you stand. You said Pippen would be top 10 today in another thread but if Durant>Pippen that almost automatically means Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and Carmelo are better. Add Durant and that is six players right there that >Pippen according to you. That puts him 7th. You said the 2010 versions of Duncan and Paul>Pippen. That puts him 9th. Was he better than Howard, Deron, Roy, Nash, and Bosh? Hell, I know you love Gasol. Gasol>Pip?

Durant may wind up being a better rebounder but that is speculation. We are comparing prime Pippen to Durant. Prime Pippen was almost top 20 in the league in rebounding before Rodman joined the team and gobbled up such a high percentage of boards. Pippen did this as a SF. Durant is averaging 7 boards a game. That is run of the mill for a SF.



That goes to show you the win share stat is a joke. You are a Bulls fan, right? According to win shares Noah>>>Rose, Deng>>Rose, Salmons>Rose, and Taj Gibson=Rose.

You are comparing the defense of the GOAT defensive SF who is arguably also the GOAT perimeter defender with Durant's? :wtf:



True but we have to consider their roles. Pippen was always tasked with being his team's primary playmaker. He couldn't just focus on scoring. He had a pass first mentality and role. You can't compare their scoring at face value. Durant today is a 28 ppg guy. Pippen was never capable of that but I could see him scoring 24-25 ppg if his role was the same as Durant's. He scored 22 ppg without Jordan even when he was tasked as the team's playmaker (and defensive anchor. Durant has to expend little energy on defense). In 92' he scored 21 ppg alongside Jordan and did the same in 96' and 97' when healthy.

Yeah, Durant also is a much better shooter than Pippen ever was, both at FT's and FG's.

How about the rest, though? Durant is average at best at playmaking and defense. He is average at rebounding. All he does better than Pippen is score.[/QUOTE]
I agree for me posting win shares. I don't know wat came over me. LOL I have said how thrash that stat is in the past. He has improved his defense through. LOL Carmelo isn't better then KD this season are you kidding me?

Carmelo isn't better then Durant this season. The only players i said who was better are the ones i listed from above. I forgot to add KD in my first post. So Prime Pip would be top 7 today. How is 7.2 avg for a SF??? His rebounding has been increasing since his rookie season. His avg has been going up every month in rebounding. Pip in his prime was a 7-8 rebound guy. Lets see where KD rebounding at the end of the season. Rememeber every season he has gotten stronger with weight lifting.

7th. Wow. I disagree with that but all this is opinion and involves speculation since it is hard to compare retired players to today's players.

Pippen was at 9 rpg in 94' and was around the same in 95' until Jordan came back. He was at only 7 rpg during the second threepeat but that was because Rodman took away such a high percentage of rebounds. Durant with Rodman would be at about 5-5.5 boards.

Durant may wind up being better but right now I can't see him being better than prime Pippen or even Carmelo. It isn't just me. There was a KD vs. Carmelo thread a few days ago and most people were saying Carmelo>Durant today but that in a few years Durant will surpass Carmelo. I agree on both counts.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Durant is avging 7 rebounds a game and rising. Where are you getting this >>>>>>>>x10 from?? KD defense has improved and in the top 10 in defensive win shares.
Also ou failed to mention how KD is the way better scorer not just > better. He is also the way better FT shooter.[/QUOTE]

Are you seriously trying to make this argument bro?

Your a cool dude, but please stop with this...

We both know Pippen is a better Rebounder than Durant...We know he's a better playmaker, and we know he's by far a better defender...

We all know Durant is the greater scorer...If you just base the whole game of Basketball on just scoring...Then Durant is better I suppose.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Are you seriously trying to make this argument bro?

Your a cool dude, but please stop with this...

We both know Pippen is a better Rebounder than Durant...We know he's a better playmaker, and we know he's by far a better defender...

We all know Durant is the greater scorer...If you just base the whole game of Basketball on just scoring...Then Durant is better I suppose.[/QUOTE]
We are talking about this season. KD is avging 7.2 and has been growing since the season started. When did i say he was the better playmaker???

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]7th. Wow. I disagree with that but all this is opinion and involves speculation since it is hard to compare retired players to today's players.

Pippen was at 9 rpg in 94' and was around the same in 95' until Jordan came back. He was at only 7 rpg during the second threepeat but that was because Rodman took away such a high percentage of rebounds. Durant with Rodman would be at about 5-5.5 boards.

Durant may wind up being better but right now I can't see him being better than prime Pippen or even Carmelo. It isn't just me. There was a KD vs. Carmelo thread a few days ago and most people were saying Carmelo>Durant today but that in a few years Durant will surpass Carmelo. I agree on both counts.[/QUOTE]
We will see where KD rebounding is at the end of the year since your comparing for this year. He has been getting more and more every month. I see him at 7.5+ at the end of the season.

KD isn't in Pippen's league as a rebounder. Pippen was the best rebounding SF in his prime. Before MJ came back he was top 20 in the league in rebounding in 95' and obviously #1 among SF's.

I didn't realize KD improved his rebounding as much as he has. He is good but not at the same level as prime Pippen. Here is KD's rebounding compared to top SF's:

Lebron 7.2
Durant 7.2
Carmelo 6.3
Pierce 4.9
Butler 6.8
Granger 5.7
Artest 5.0
Turkulo 4.5
Gay 6.1

How about 94' Pippen compared to top SF's?

Pippen 8.7
Rice 5.4
Mashburn 4.5
Schrempf 5.6
Mullin 5.6
Wilkins 6.5

Pippen was head and shoulders above the other top SF's in rebounding in 94'. You might say 8.7 is not much more than 7.2 but you have to compare them with their peers in their era. If 8.7 rpg was so easy for a SF how come the other top SF's could not come close to it in 94'? Also keep in mind Pippen was playing with Horace Grant, who was pulling down 11.0 boards a game. The best rebounding teammate Durant has is at 6.1.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]KD isn't in Pippen's league as a rebounder. Pippen was the best rebounding SF in his prime. Before MJ came back he was top 20 in the league in rebounding in 95' and obviously #1 among SF's.

I didn't realize KD improved his rebounding as much as he has. He is good but not at the same level as prime Pippen. Here is KD's rebounding compared to top SF's:

Lebron 7.2
Durant 7.2
Carmelo 6.3
Pierce 4.9
Butler 6.8
Granger 5.7
Artest 5.0
Turkulo 4.5
Gay 6.1

How about 94' Pippen compared to top SF's?

Pippen 8.7
Rice 5.4
Mashburn 4.5
Schrempf 5.6
Mullin 5.6
Wilkins 6.5

Pippen was head and shoulders above the other top SF's in rebounding in 94'. You might say 8.7 is not much more than 7.2 but you have to compare them with their peers in their era. If 8.7 rpg was so easy for a SF how come the other top SF's could not come close to it in 94'? Also keep in mind Pippen was playing with Horace Grant, who was pulling down 11.0 boards a game. The best rebounding teammate Durant has is at 6.1.[/QUOTE]
Carmelo and LJ are really the only close ones and they are superstars. Yep and on his twitter page he tells you when he working out lol. He gotten stronger, but he just still looks the same way. Lets wait until the season end to see his complete season. He will make it to 7.5 or+ book it.

[QUOTE]Carmelo and LJ are really the only close ones [/QUOTE]

[U]No one [/U]was close to peak Pippen among top SF's in 1994 or 1995 (in 96' Hill developed and was better)! :bowdown:

Durant is solid but Pippen was great for his position. He even outrebounded Grant in the playoffs in 94' and I believe in two of the first threepeat years. I know for sure he did it in one of the threepeat years in the playoffs. Pip's rebounding would consistently increase in the playoffs too. Regular season listed first, playoff average second:

1989: 6.1 [B]7.6[/B]
1990: 6.7 [B]7.2[/B]
1991: 7.3 [B]8.9[/B]
1992: 7.7 [B]8.8[/B]
1993: [B]7.7[/B] 6.9
1994: [B]8.7 [/B]8.3
1995: 8.1 [B]8.6[/B]
1996: 6.4 [B]8.5[/B]
1997: 6.5 [B]6.8*[/B]
1998: 5.2 [B]7.1[/B]

We don't know if Durant can do this because we haven't seen him in the playoffs yet.

*including Game 5 of the ECF where he got hurt and played only 5 or 6 minutes. If you exclude that he would be at something like 7.1 or 7.2.

Durant may wind up better than Pippen but I believe prime Pip>2010 Durant. However, beating Pip means Durant would have to end up being one of the 20-25 greatest players ever. He is off to a good start, though.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock][U]No one [/U]was close to peak Pippen among top SF's in 1994 or 1995 (in 96' Hill developed and was better)! :bowdown:

Durant is solid but Pippen was great for his position. He even outrebounded Grant in the playoffs in 94' and I believe in two of the first threepeat years. I know for sure he did it in one of the threepeat years in the playoffs. Pip's rebounding would consistently increase in the playoffs too. Regular season listed first, playoff average second:

1989: 6.1 [B]7.6[/B]
1990: 6.7 [B]7.2[/B]
1991: 7.3 [B]8.9[/B]
1992: 7.7 [B]8.8[/B]
1993: [B]7.7[/B] 6.9
1994: [B]8.7 [/B]8.3
1995: 8.1 [B]8.6[/B]
1996: 6.4 [B]8.5[/B]
1997: 6.5 [B]6.8*[/B]
1998: 5.2 [B]7.1[/B]

We don't know if Durant can do this because we haven't seen him in the playoffs yet.

*including Game 5 of the ECF where he got hurt and played only 5 or 6 minutes. If you exclude that he would be at something like 7.1 or 7.2.

Durant may wind up better than Pippen but I believe prime Pip>2010 Durant. However, beating Pip means Durant would have to end up being one of the 20-25 greatest players ever. He is off to a good start, though.[/QUOTE]
I agree about the playoffs, but what KD ends up with a better season then pip ever did and gets injured following season?? Most people have LJ ahead of pip and his career isn't even close to over yet.

I will have to wait until the playoffs for the final judgement on KD, but you still have to prove me about CP3.