Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93

[QUOTE=97_Bulls]Everyone came to that conclusion because it's TRUE.

We have to understand that impact on defense goes farrrrr past stats. Or I should say can go. Magic was visibly flustered. It got so bad that other guys (guys like Divac, Perkins, Teagle) found themselves bring the ball up and initiating the offense. Pippen literally took the ball out of Magics hands. That's great defense. Or, Pip harrassed Magic so much that the Lakers found themselves taking a shot (their first shot mind you) with under 10 seconds on the clock. Again GREAT DEFENSE.

Or, the Lakers had Magic shooting the ball after receiving a pass from a player that was under duress. Because Magic was denied the ball from Pippen.

Pippens impact in that game was on par with a player dropping 50.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. The only other alternative is there was a conspiracy cooked up to hype Pippen after the game between the entire NBA press and every participant in the game--including Lakers.

Look at those reporters. Their job literally is to tell their readers what happened and what was important in the game. They concluded the story was Pippen's defense on Magic. Not only that, their editors had to agree with them. If their editors thought it was BS they would force them to change the story.

[QUOTE=Round Mound;14054372][B]And still no one has answered why Jordan himself said "I will only comeback if Pippen stays and plays along side me" [/B]:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

True...:lol Not only that, when Pip left MJ, the reigning MVP and champ, kept his word and quit rather than play without Pippen.
/
3ball dishonestly has to inflate Wade 16% to bring 13' Wade to 98' Pippen--despite 98' being a much lower scoring time (remember, Utah made the chip with their 2nd/3rd options scoring 20-21 PPG--[I]combined[/I]). When you combine Miami playing at a faster pace and Wade playing a lot less minutes, it nets out to 3ball giving Wade a fictional extra 16%. That is the difference between 3ball and the OP: when you have the truth on your side you don't need to do the type of stuff he shamelessly does.

Moreover, under 3ball's BS, 98' Kukoc>13' Wade. Similar line but Kukoc was much more efficient in a much tougher defensive and lower scoring era.

Kukoc 98' per 100 in the PO: 25/7/5 56% TS
Wade 13' per 100 in the PO: 25/7/7 50% TS

The Bulls' 4th best player outperformed 13' Wade--according to 3ball's own accounting. :oldlol:

His defense was equal to a 50 pt game? Now I had to go back and watch this once again - how did I miss this? Turns out I didn't miss anything and my initial evaluation was spot on.

Here are the first half plays involving Pippen/Magic

- Magic dumps it down into a Worthy post iso. Jordan comes from nowhere to block what would have been an uncontested lay up.

[B]- Pippens best defensive play. Hassles Magic all possession. Great defense.[/B]

- Posts Pippen up. Wide open shot result.

- Blow by Pippen into the middle, MJ takes a charge

- Pippen helps way off Magic, he misses wide open 3

- Magic posts Pippen up. He shoots an uncontested hook shot, he misses. This right here is a good example of what I am seeing bring propped as good defense, even the announcer says it was good defense. Pippen went for a steal, Magic turned the opposite way and Pippen literally had nothing to do with the miss. You reach I teach, is what basically happened here but Magic missed the shot.

- Pippen presses, applies pressure but it doesn't phase Magic and he makes a dime for two FTs on a lay up foul.

- Magic blows by Pippen middle, Magic dumps off to Vlade for dunk

- MJ comes up and double teams Magic, forcing a bad TO at half court.

- Magic post up Pippen, wide open corner 3 results

- Magic posts up Pippen, wide open corner 3 again

- Pippen presses Magic, Magic blows right by him into the middle for a wide open kick out 3.


This ranks right up there with some of the most disgustingly false revisionist history I've seen so far. Maybe the second half is where this 50 point defensive explosion comes from - but I doubt it.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14054590]His defense was equal to a 50 pt game? Now I had to go back and watch this once again - how did I miss this? Turns out I didn't miss anything and my initial evaluation was spot on.

Here are the first half plays involving Pippen/Magic

- Magic dumps it down into a Worthy post iso. Jordan comes from nowhere to block what would have been an uncontested lay up.

[B]- Pippens best defensive play. Hassles Magic all possession. Great defense.[/B]

- Posts Pippen up. Wide open shot result.

- Blow by Pippen into the middle, MJ takes a charge

- Pippen helps way off Magic, he misses wide open 3

- Magic posts Pippen up. He shoots an uncontested hook shot, he misses. This right here is a good example of what I am seeing bring propped as good defense, even the announcer says it was good defense. Pippen went for a steal, Magic turned the opposite way and Pippen literally had nothing to do with the miss. You reach I teach, is what basically happened here but Magic missed the shot.

- Pippen presses, applies pressure but it doesn't phase Magic and he makes a dime for two FTs on a lay up foul.

- Magic blows by Pippen middle, Magic dumps off to Vlade for dunk

- MJ comes up and double teams Magic, forcing a bad TO at half court.

- Magic post up Pippen, wide open corner 3 results

- Magic posts up Pippen, wide open corner 3 again

- Pippen presses Magic, Magic blows right by him into the middle for a wide open kick out 3.


This ranks right up there with some of the most disgustingly false revisionist history I've seen so far. Maybe the second half is where this 50 point defensive explosion comes from - but I doubt it.[/QUOTE]

Again. It goes deeper than just Pippen on Magic. Even the two examples you gave. One shows Terry Teagle initiating the Lakers offense with Magic on the other side of the court. Think about that. How often was another player running the Lakers offense while Magic was on the floor?

The other example you used was a bad pass from Magic to Worthy and Worthy got bailed out with a foul called on Paxson.

I wish we could watch the game together.

That was a great pass from Magic, I don't know what you're looking at. Where else do you want him to put it? It hit him right in the hands?

It doesn't matter to me who initiates the offense if what results is a wide open shot. Magic was a good shooter at this point in his career, having him end up with a wide open look for the possession is great.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14054624]That was a great pass from Magic, I don't know what you're looking at. Where else do you want him to put it? It hit him right in the hands?

It doesn't matter to me who initiates the offense if what results is a wide open shot. Magic was a good shooter at this point in his career, having him end up with a wide open look for the possession is great.[/QUOTE]

Bro. I'm rewatching this game right now. Right off the bat 3 if Magics 10 assists came with MJ on him. Another came off a TO fastbreak when Cartwright was stripped Magic got the ball and passed it to Scott.

We still haven't gotten an explanation for why the whole world apparently got it wrong in real time, including Magic himself.

[QUOTE]This ranks right up there with some of the most disgustingly false revisionist history I've seen so far. [/QUOTE]

It isn't revisionism if that is what was recorded in real time, thereafter, and continued for decades (with no dissents at the time from any participants or observers of the game). That's the recorded history--you can't revise what has been the consensus the entire time--there by definition is nothing to revise if you agree with the consensus.

Only in the 2010's have we gotten this push back online from MJ fans on Pippen's defense on Magic (curiously, I don't see any analysis of Magic roasting MJ in the same series in other games). You are unbiased but the broader currents are the entire "Pippen on Magic" push to revise comes from an agenda.

That is where real time observations carry weight. None of the people involved had an agenda. People 20-30 years later do. It is obvious the revisionism comes from a slant dedicated to diminishing Pippen's role. Real time? People simply watched the game, reported or commented on what they saw.

[QUOTE]Right off the bat 3 if Magics 10 assists came with MJ on him.[/QUOTE]

MJ spent nearly the entire series getting roasted by Magic and he somehow draws no scrutiny for that defense but we have this big push on Pippen.

What's that have to do with anything? I'm isolating the plays of two players, what he did against MJ is not of any value - although MJ couldn't do anything against Magic either. Magic had no trouble against him.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14054639]What's that have to do with anything? I'm isolating the plays of two players, what he did against MJ is not of any value - although MJ couldn't do anything against Magic either. Magic had no trouble against him.[/QUOTE]

Even then how do you not say Pippen did a great job on Magic if he was only 4-13? I dont see what your measuring stick is.

He shot bad, had 4 TOs, the Lakers offense was out of synch, they took the ball out of Magics hands. What more do you want? Or expect?

[QUOTE]He shot bad, had 4 TOs, the Lakers offense was out of synch, they took the ball out of Magics hands. What more do you want? Or expect?[/QUOTE]

7 points on 3 for 14, 3 assists, 4 rebounds it appears. That just isn't going to happen with a player of Magic's caliber. Pippen, Jordan are GOAT defenders and Magic still got numbers on them. That isn't the metric. It is compared to his norm...

[QUOTE=Horace Grant]"If I had a vote in that first championship for MVP it would have been Scottie. He brought his whole game and everyone could see. [B]The way he played Magic and made him turn and turn and turn and made him work like that was the difference[/B], especially after we lost the first game."[/QUOTE]

He was on the court--he is wrong like everyone else involving in or covering the game? [url]http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2015/07/scottie-pippen-all-around-performer.html?m=1[/url]

I'm giving you a play by play break down, not something that's an opinion but facts. I can't make it up, when he blows by Pippen into the middle of the lane for open looks. It's there for anyone to see.

Him posting up and creating wide open shots for his teammates is not opinion.

If the large majority of possessions in this matchup end result is his team getting wide open shots, the individual defense of Pippen isn't having any effect on him.

He blows by Pippen and Jordan takes a charge under the hoop, it's a TO for Magic but it's not good defense for Pippen. He gets a negative mark for letting the best playmaker of all time beat him into the middle in the lane.

I'm watching it (at least the first half) today. Pippen has just come in and the difference is obvious: Pippen is harassing Magic, making Magic work to even bring the ball up (which throws off the timing of the offense by delaying when the offense can set up). When Jordan was on Magic, Magic was strolling up the court, other than when MJ attempted a steal. The crowd roars in appreciation of Pippen's defense. The result of the play? Magic got a layup attempt but it was hardly an easy shot. Pippen, Grant were there to contest and he missed.

Fratello is talking about this play at the beginning of the 2nd quarter--notes Pippen's tough defense resulted in a difficult shot (miss) by Magic.

[QUOTE]- Posts Pippen up. Wide open shot result.[/QUOTE]

This makes it sound as if Magic had a walk in the park and got an open shot. Magic spun himself into the wall of Horace Grant after getting past Pippen who gambled for a steal (knowing Grant was behind them)--then threw it to an open man (not surprising since all 5 Chicago defenders were in the paint). This wasn't some great play by Magic. It is at 16:10 or so here. [url]https://youtu.be/8o8l6oM6Jeg[/url]

[QUOTE]Blow by Pippen into the middle, MJ takes a charge[/QUOTE]

Yeah, shooting with 4 defenders draped around you isn't a great idea.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14054665]I'm giving you a play by play break down, not something that's an opinion but facts. I can't make it up, when he blows by Pippen into the middle of the lane for open looks. It's there for anyone to see.

Him posting up and creating wide open shots for his teammates is not opinion.

If the large majority of possessions in this matchup end result is his team getting wide open shots, the individual defense of Pippen isn't having any effect on him.

He blows by Pippen and Jordan takes a charge under the hoop, it's a TO for Magic but it's not good defense for Pippen. He gets a negative mark for letting the best playmaker of all time beat him into the middle in the lane.[/QUOTE]

Lol. All that blowing by Pippen netted him 4 FGs on 13 attempts and 4 TOs and only 7 assists. A fee of those

All jokes aside, Pippen funneled Magic into the teeth of the defense.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14054670]I'm watching it (at least the first half) today. Pippen has just come in and the difference is obvious: Pippen is harassing Magic, making Magic work to even bring the ball up (which throws off the timing of the offense by delaying when the offense can set up). When Jordan was on Magic, Magic was strolling up the court, other than when MJ attempted a steal. The crowd roars in appreciation of Pippen's defense. The result of the play? Magic got a layup attempt but it was hardly an easy shot. Pippen, Grant were there to contest and he missed.



This makes it sound as if Magic had a walk in the park and got an open shot. Magic spun himself into the wall of Horace Grant after getting past Pippen who gambled for a steal (knowing Grant was behind them)--then threw it to an open man (not surprising since all 5 Chicago defenders were in the paint). This wasn't some great play by Magic. It is at 16:10 or so here. [url]https://youtu.be/8o8l6oM6Jeg[/url]



Yeah, shooting with 4 defenders draped around you isn't a great idea.[/QUOTE]


You don't have to link me the play - I know what play you're speaking of.

You and I see the game much differently. That play you're speaking of where he goes baseline and passes, that's beautiful to me. Getting a wide open shot as the end result is all you can ask for in the NBA, especially against this Chicago defense. Magic got two defenders to come at him, he found the open man - simple and beautiful offense.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14054675]Lol. All that blowing by Pippen netted him 4 FGs on 13 attempts and 4 TOs and only 7 assists. A fee of those

All jokes aside, Pippen funneled Magic into the teeth of the defense.[/QUOTE]

You don't funnel Magic into the middle of your defense. This isn't a "strategy," IMO because it is illogical. Like I said to RoundBall, you and I clearly do not view basketball the same way - which is OK.

I'm extremely confident in what I believe.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14054681]You don't funnel Magic into the middle of your defense. This isn't a "strategy," IMO because it is illogical. Like I said to RoundBall, you and I clearly do not view basketball the same way - which is OK.

I'm extremely confident in what I believe.[/QUOTE]

Lol. Bro. Did Magic have a Magic type game?