Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Soothsayer]Wow, you clearly are either ignorant or forgot why the bulls were broken up. Reinsdorf and the boys did not want to continue paying these Jordan and Pip sky high salaries when they were clearly past their primes. Phil, Jordan, and Pip all had been talking about this since 1997 and, no, Phil and Pippen did not decide to leave first, only to have Jordan "follow" them by leaving the bulls. Quit posting misinformation.[/QUOTE]
That's what he does.
He posts a lot of misinformation because most of ISH posters weren't watching basketball back then, so they can only go on hearsay.
1999 was the lockout season, and the Bulls were in the middle of contract disputes with MJ, Pippen and Phil Jackson.
Pippen was dealt in a sign and trade (wich was implemented in the new CBA) with the houston rockets, he got a big chunk of change and was sent packing. Jerry Riensdorf was not going to pay MJ another $30Million per season, and MJ wasn't playing without Phil Jackson, so the dynasty was broken up and they started this "Organizations Win Championships" and not players in their eyes.
Plus, they wanted to fast track the handing over of the team to Toni Kukoc, which is the reason they brought him over in the first place. It was to be his team when MJ retired. They wound up trading him to the Bucks anyway.
Of course this fact will be overlooked and dismissed.
This whole thing brought on 12 years of bad luck to the Bulls and they are just now starting to recover. No big name free agents would come here because of how they treated MJ and the dynasy.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Such as? [B][U]As t-rex showed, the Bulls WITHOUT Jordan did about as well as the other superstar's of that era WITH them[/U][/B].
The Knicks? 57 wins and needed Hue Hollins to beat the Bulls.
Spurs? 55 wins with Robinson and out in the first round.
Jazz? 53 wins.
Magic? 50 wins.
Rockets? 58 wins.
Suns? 56 wins.
If you broaden it to the entire 90's then you could cite the 95' and 96' Magic and that is about it. The Sonics were chronic underachievers, aside from 96', and had no bench. The Suns from 1993-1995 look good on paper but history showed that even with Barkley they were on par with the Bulls sans Jordan in 94'.
Talent does not by itself win games. The real question is how good a team is at winning and Jordan's "supporting cast" (a shameful term Jordan introduced to the basketball lexicon) was better than any other of the 90's. If you want to look at raw talent then the Jazz of recent years are a juggernaut with a borderline superstar in Deron Williams, an all-NBA caliber player in Boozer, two other all-star caliber players in AK-47 and Okur as well as other good players such as Harpring and Millsap. Yet what has that team achieved? No one 15 years from now is going to say Williams had a great "cast."
The real question is why ONLY MJ fans insist on diminishing his teammates. You don't see Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Kobe fans do it. Among the top 10 only fans of the "clear GOAT" do this en masse. Strange...
:oldlol: Jordan publicly announced that he would not come back unless both Pippen and Jackson were retained during the three-peat years. Once it was clear Jackson and Pippen would be gone, Jordan was out as well. To be fair, what would the point of going, at best, 45-37 be for Jordan? The only purpose would be to win without Pippen/Jackson but Jordan knew...[/QUOTE]
No, they did not. The 94 bulls, having added both kerr and kukoc, won 55 games and had a 2nd round exit. MANY teams in the 90s had as good or better records, and went further in the playoffs.
Thus, your point fails for lack of evidence.
91 Lakers more talented, 91 blazers more talented, 91 celts debatably
92 Blazers and Cavs more talented, as well as Jazz
93 Suns, Knicks, and Sonics more talented
94 knicks, Houston, seattle, phoenix more talented
95 Magic, spurs, utah, suns, sonics more talented
96 Spurs, Sonic, Magic more talented
97 Heat, Hawks, Jazz, Sonics, Lakers more talented
98 Jazz, Lakers, Spurs, Pacers more talented
99 tough to tell with incomplete season, but at least the spurs
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Such as? As t-rex showed, the Bulls WITHOUT Jordan did about as well as the other superstar's of that era WITH them.
The Knicks? 57 wins and needed Hue Hollins to beat the Bulls.
Spurs? 55 wins with Robinson and out in the first round.
Jazz? 53 wins.
Magic? 50 wins.
Rockets? 58 wins.
Suns? 56 wins.
If you broaden it to the entire 90's then you could cite the 95' and 96' Magic and that is about it. The Sonics were chronic underachievers, aside from 96', and had no bench. The Suns from 1993-1995 look good on paper but history showed that even with Barkley they were on par with the Bulls sans Jordan in 94'.
Talent does not by itself win games. The real question is how good a team is at winning and Jordan's "supporting cast" (a shameful term Jordan introduced to the basketball lexicon) was better than any other of the 90's. If you want to look at raw talent then the Jazz of recent years are a juggernaut with a borderline superstar in Deron Williams, an all-NBA caliber player in Boozer, two other all-star caliber players in AK-47 and Okur as well as other good players such as Harpring and Millsap. Yet what has that team achieved? No one 15 years from now is going to say Williams had a great "cast."
The real question is why ONLY MJ fans insist on diminishing his teammates. You don't see Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Kobe fans do it. Among the top 10 only fans of the "clear GOAT" do this en masse. Strange...
:oldlol: at acting as if MJ retiring was a coincidence that had nothing to do with Pippen and Jackson. Jordan publicly announced numerous times that he would not come back unless both Pippen and Jackson were retained during the three-peat years. Once it was clear Jackson and Pippen would be gone, Jordan was out as well. To be fair, what would the point of going, at best, 45-37 be for Jordan? The only purpose would be to win without Pippen/Jackson but Jordan knew...
Ignorance? Pip's sky high salary? He was the 122nd highest paid player in the NBA at $3 million in 1998. How could a "Jordan fan" who watched MJ in the 90's be unaware of this basic fact that came up so often in the saga of the 90's Bulls?
And? You act as if Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson and co. were surrounding by the Dream Team. Only Jordan and Malone had the luxury of having a second best player who was a superstar for several seasons (Shaq had prime Penny for 2 years). Hakeem had Thorpe until he was 33 or 34. Ewing had Starks. :roll: Robinson had Rodman, who caused chemistry problems in San Antonio and was a mere role player according to you. Quit putting Jordan's team out of context. It is no coincidence Jordan went from winning nothing to winning 6 rings in 7 seasons.
This is misleading. His team was indeed underrated--until Jordan retired 2 days before training camp and the Bulls proved their worth in 94'. They were so underrated most people had them missing the playoffs that year. What relevance then is the view of the team in 1991?[/QUOTE]
"Talent itself does not win games."
No kidding.
And Jordan's teammates, coming off 3 rings, adding both Kerr and Kukoc, WON 55 games and could not make it out of the 2nd round.
Thus, that team is not nearly the most talented of the 90s. Not even close.
Not diminishing his teammates, just accepting reality.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Such as? As t-rex showed, the Bulls WITHOUT Jordan did about as well as the other superstar's of that era WITH them.
The Knicks? 57 wins and needed Hue Hollins to beat the Bulls.
Spurs? 55 wins with Robinson and out in the first round.
Jazz? 53 wins.
Magic? 50 wins.
Rockets? 58 wins.
Suns? 56 wins.
If you broaden it to the entire 90's then you could cite the 95' and 96' Magic and that is about it. The Sonics were chronic underachievers, aside from 96', and had no bench. The Suns from 1993-1995 look good on paper but history showed that even with Barkley they were on par with the Bulls sans Jordan in 94'.
Talent does not by itself win games. The real question is how good a team is at winning and Jordan's "supporting cast" (a shameful term Jordan introduced to the basketball lexicon) was better than any other of the 90's. If you want to look at raw talent then the Jazz of recent years are a juggernaut with a borderline superstar in Deron Williams, an all-NBA caliber player in Boozer, two other all-star caliber players in AK-47 and Okur as well as other good players such as Harpring and Millsap. Yet what has that team achieved? No one 15 years from now is going to say Williams had a great "cast."
The real question is why ONLY MJ fans insist on diminishing his teammates. You don't see Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Kobe fans do it. Among the top 10 only fans of the "clear GOAT" do this en masse. Strange...
:[B][U]oldlol: at acting as if MJ retiring was a coincidence that had nothing to do with Pippen and Jackson.[/U][/B] Jordan publicly announced numerous times that he would not come back unless both Pippen and Jackson were retained during the three-peat years. Once it was clear Jackson and Pippen would be gone, Jordan was out as well. To be fair, what would the point of going, at best, 45-37 be for Jordan? The only purpose would be to win without Pippen/Jackson but Jordan knew...
Ignorance? Pip's sky high salary? He was the 122nd highest paid player in the NBA at $3 million in 1998. How could a "Jordan fan" who watched MJ in the 90's be unaware of this basic fact that came up so often in the saga of the 90's Bulls?
And? You act as if Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson and co. were surrounding by the Dream Team. Only Jordan and Malone had the luxury of having a second best player who was a superstar for several seasons (Shaq had prime Penny for 2 years). Hakeem had Thorpe until he was 33 or 34. Ewing had Starks. :roll: Robinson had Rodman, who caused chemistry problems in San Antonio and was a mere role player according to you. Quit putting Jordan's team out of context. It is no coincidence Jordan went from winning nothing to winning 6 rings in 7 seasons.
This is misleading. His team was indeed underrated--until Jordan retired 2 days before training camp (nice timing MJ! Another reason he is the clear GOAT :bowdown: ) and the Bulls proved their worth in 94'. They were so underrated most people had them missing the playoffs that year. Even Phil Jackson predicted a 42-40 record, because he assumed Jordan was worth 15-20 wins. What relevance then is the view of the team in 1991 when they were underrated for several more years until Jordan left? If Jordan never quit his "cast" would have forever been underrated. Fortunately, other than MJ fans, most people--especially those who saw the Bulls without MJ in action in 94'--realize how great a "cast" that was. No other "cast" in the 90's, other than the 96' Magic, could have remained elite without their best player.[/QUOTE]
Nobody said Jordan leaving had nothing to do with Pippen and Phil. All would have stayed had Reinsdorf ponied up the cash. He didn't, they left.
However, you could just as easily say Phil and Pippen left because Jordan was not there, vs. the other way round.
Thus, your statement that Jordan left BECAUSE Phil and Pippen left is silly.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Such as? As t-rex showed, the Bulls WITHOUT Jordan did about as well as the other superstar's of that era WITH them.
The Knicks? 57 wins and needed Hue Hollins to beat the Bulls.
Spurs? 55 wins with Robinson and out in the first round.
Jazz? 53 wins.
Magic? 50 wins.
Rockets? 58 wins.
Suns? 56 wins.
If you broaden it to the entire 90's then you could cite the 95' and 96' Magic and that is about it. The Sonics were chronic underachievers, aside from 96', and had no bench. The Suns from 1993-1995 look good on paper but history showed that even with Barkley they were on par with the Bulls sans Jordan in 94'.
Talent does not by itself win games. The real question is how good a team is at winning and Jordan's "supporting cast" (a shameful term Jordan introduced to the basketball lexicon) was better than any other of the 90's. If you want to look at raw talent then the Jazz of recent years are a juggernaut with a borderline superstar in Deron Williams, an all-NBA caliber player in Boozer, two other all-star caliber players in AK-47 and Okur as well as other good players such as Harpring and Millsap. Yet what has that team achieved? No one 15 years from now is going to say Williams had a great "cast."
The real question is why ONLY MJ fans insist on diminishing his teammates. You don't see Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Kobe fans do it. Among the top 10 only fans of the "clear GOAT" do this en masse. Strange...
:oldlol: at acting as if MJ retiring was a coincidence that had nothing to do with Pippen and Jackson. Jordan publicly announced numerous times that he would not come back unless both Pippen and Jackson were retained during the three-peat years. Once it was clear Jackson and Pippen would be gone, Jordan was out as well. To be fair, what would the point of going, at best, 45-37 be for Jordan? The only purpose would be to win without Pippen/Jackson but Jordan knew...
[B][U]
Ignorance? Pip's sky high salary? He was the 122nd highest paid player in the NBA at $3 million in 1998. How could a "Jordan fan" who watched MJ in the 90's be unaware of this basic fact that came up so often in the saga of the 90's Bulls?[/U][/B]
And? You act as if Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson and co. were surrounding by the Dream Team. Only Jordan and Malone had the luxury of having a second best player who was a superstar for several seasons (Shaq had prime Penny for 2 years). Hakeem had Thorpe until he was 33 or 34. Ewing had Starks. :roll: Robinson had Rodman, who caused chemistry problems in San Antonio and was a mere role player according to you. Quit putting Jordan's team out of context. It is no coincidence Jordan went from winning nothing to winning 6 rings in 7 seasons.
This is misleading. His team was indeed underrated--until Jordan retired 2 days before training camp (nice timing MJ! Another reason he is the clear GOAT :bowdown: ) and the Bulls proved their worth in 94'. They were so underrated most people had them missing the playoffs that year. Even Phil Jackson predicted a 42-40 record, because he assumed Jordan was worth 15-20 wins. What relevance then is the view of the team in 1991 when they were underrated for several more years until Jordan left? If Jordan never quit his "cast" would have forever been underrated. Fortunately, other than MJ fans, most people--especially those who saw the Bulls without MJ in action in 94'--realize how great a "cast" that was. No other "cast" in the 90's, other than the 96' Magic, could have remained elite without their best player.[/QUOTE]
Do your homework. Pippen was demaning a LOT more money heading into the 98-99 season. They had pip locked up at 2-3 mill per year from 92-98 and he was woefully underpaid. He was demanding a LOT more money, which Reinsdorf did not want to pay. Pippen eventually signed for $11 million with Houston, nearly quadrupling his previous salary.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE]1999 was the lockout season, and the Bulls were in the middle of contract disputes with MJ, Pippen and Phil Jackson.
Pippen was dealt in a sign and trade (wich was implemented in the new CBA) with the houston rockets, he got a big chunk of change and was sent packing. Jerry Riensdorf was not going to pay MJ another $30Million per season, and [B]MJ wasn't playing without Phil Jackson[/B], so the dynasty was broken up and they started this "Organizations Win Championships" and not players in their eyes.[/QUOTE]
So what exactly do you disagree with me saying? Jordan also would not play without Pippen, as you know since he said so publicly numerous times. Why didn't you post that? :eek:
:oldlol: at these MJ fans acting as if 99' was when the management-players/Jackson dispute started. Talk about misinformation and misleading younger posters! There was doubt as to whether the team would be brought back for 98' as well and MJ was on record demanding both Pippen and Jackson being retained or he would retire.
[QUOTE]The 94 bulls, having added both kerr and kukoc, won 55 games and had a 2nd round exit. MANY teams in the 90s had as good or better records, and went further in the playoffs.
Thus, your point fails for lack of evidence.
91 Lakers more talented, 91 blazers more talented, 91 celts debatably
92 Blazers and Cavs more talented, as well as Jazz
93 Suns, Knicks, and Sonics more talented
94 knicks, Houston, seattle, phoenix more talented
95 Magic, spurs, utah, suns, sonics more talented
96 Spurs, Sonic, Magic more talented
97 Heat, Hawks, Jazz, Sonics, Lakers more talented
98 Jazz, Lakers, Spurs, Pacers more talented
99 tough to tell with incomplete season, but at least the spurs[/QUOTE]
Which of those teams were missing their best player? We are talking about "supporting casts." Thanks in advance.
[QUOTE]And Jordan's teammates, coming off 3 rings, adding both Kerr and Kukoc, WON 55 games and could not make it out of the 2nd round.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and Pippen's teammates, coming off 3 rings, adding the clear GOAT Jordan himself, could not make it out the 2nd round in 95'! Oh knowes!
:oldlol: at how MJ fans never mention how MJ screwed the team by retiring at the last minute. The team had the worst "starting" SG in the league and still remained elite. Imagine if MJ retired over the summer and the Bulls had legit starters at all 5 positions.
Kukoc? 9/4/3 as a rookie in the playoffs in 18 minutes. Kerr? 3.5 ppg in the playoffs. :lol at acting as if 94' Kukoc and Kerr were the same guys they later became.
[QUOTE]. Pippen was demaning a LOT more money heading into the 98-99 season. They had pip locked up at 2-3 mill per year from 92-98 and he was woefully underpaid. He was demanding a LOT more money, which Reinsdorf did not want to pay. Pippen eventually signed for $11 million with Houston, nearly quadrupling his previous salary.[/QUOTE]
And your point is? Pippen had been demanding that kind of raise (to a superstar salary) for years. You make it seem as if 99' was a sea change in that regard. What changed was he became a free agent that year but the Bulls were almost broken up the previous year. We all knew it. Sports Illustrated had a "Last Stand" issue during the 98' season. Jackson called it the "Last Dance." It was a near run thing that the team was brought back for 98' and there was little chance it would be back in 99'.
[QUOTE]However, you could just as easily say Phil and Pippen left because Jordan was not there, vs. the other way round. [/QUOTE]
Except that is factually incorrect. Pippen left for financial reasons, not Jordan. Jordan--per his own words--simply was not coming back if Jackson and Pippen weren't there, regardless of what he was paid.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Such as? As t-rex showed, the Bulls WITHOUT Jordan did about as well as the other superstar's of that era WITH them.
The Knicks? 57 wins and needed Hue Hollins to beat the Bulls.
Spurs? 55 wins with Robinson and out in the first round.
Jazz? 53 wins.
Magic? 50 wins.
Rockets? 58 wins.
Suns? 56 wins.
If you broaden it to the entire 90's then you could cite the 95' and 96' Magic and that is about it. The Sonics were chronic underachievers, aside from 96', and had no bench. The Suns from 1993-1995 look good on paper but history showed that even with Barkley they were on par with the Bulls sans Jordan in 94'.
Talent does not by itself win games. The real question is how good a team is at winning and Jordan's "supporting cast" (a shameful term Jordan introduced to the basketball lexicon) was better than any other of the 90's. If you want to look at raw talent then the Jazz of recent years are a juggernaut with a borderline superstar in Deron Williams, an all-NBA caliber player in Boozer, two other all-star caliber players in AK-47 and Okur as well as other good players such as Harpring and Millsap. Yet what has that team achieved? No one 15 years from now is going to say Williams had a great "cast."
The real question is why ONLY MJ fans insist on diminishing his teammates. You don't see Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Kobe fans do it. Among the top 10 only fans of the "clear GOAT" do this en masse. Strange...
:oldlol: at acting as if MJ retiring was a coincidence that had nothing to do with Pippen and Jackson. Jordan publicly announced numerous times that he would not come back unless both Pippen and Jackson were retained during the three-peat years. Once it was clear Jackson and Pippen would be gone, Jordan was out as well. To be fair, what would the point of going, at best, 45-37 be for Jordan? The only purpose would be to win without Pippen/Jackson but Jordan knew...
Ignorance? Pip's sky high salary? He was the 122nd highest paid player in the NBA at $3 million in 1998. How could a "Jordan fan" who watched MJ in the 90's be unaware of this basic fact that came up so often in the saga of the 90's Bulls?
And? You act as if Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson and co. were surrounding by the Dream Team. Only Jordan and Malone had the luxury of having a second best player who was a superstar for several seasons (Shaq had prime Penny for 2 years). Hakeem had Thorpe until he was 33 or 34. Ewing had Starks. :roll: Robinson had Rodman, who caused chemistry problems in San Antonio and was a mere role player according to you. Quit putting Jordan's team out of context. It is no coincidence Jordan went from winning nothing to winning 6 rings in 7 seasons.
[B]This is misleading. His team was indeed underrated--until Jordan retired 2 days before training camp (nice timing MJ! Another reason he is the clear GOAT :bowdown: ) and the Bulls proved their worth in 94'. They were so underrated most people had them missing the playoffs that year. Even Phil Jackson predicted a 42-40 record, because he assumed Jordan was worth 15-20 wins. What relevance then is the view of the team in 1991 when they were underrated for several more years until Jordan left? If Jordan never quit his "cast" would have forever been underrated. Fortunately, other than MJ fans, most people--especially those who saw the Bulls without MJ in action in 94'--realize how great a "cast" that was. No other "cast" in the 90's, other than the 96' Magic, could have remained elite without their best player[/B].[/QUOTE]
Already been over this. The 94 bulls were a 3 time championship team, battle tested many times over. Add to this mix both Kerr and Kukoc.
The 92-93 bulls had coasted through the regular season to 57 wins after both Pippen and Jordan had played in the 92 olympics. In the 91-92 season the same team had won 67 games.
Add to that mix, a rested Pippen and Jordan for the 93-94 season, plus adding Kerr and Kukoc, and you are lookikng at a good possibility of 70+ wins.
Without Jordan, 55 wins and a 2nd round exit.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Glide2keva]That's what he does.
He posts a lot of misinformation because most of ISH posters weren't watching basketball back then, so they can only go on hearsay.
1999 was the lockout season, and the Bulls were in the middle of contract disputes with MJ, Pippen and Phil Jackson.
Pippen was dealt in a sign and trade (wich was implemented in the new CBA) with the houston rockets, he got a big chunk of change and was sent packing. Jerry Riensdorf was not going to pay MJ another $30Million per season, and MJ wasn't playing without Phil Jackson, so the dynasty was broken up and they started this "Organizations Win Championships" and not players in their eyes.
Plus, they wanted to fast track the handing over of the team to Toni Kukoc, which is the reason they brought him over in the first place. It was to be his team when MJ retired. They wound up trading him to the Bucks anyway.
Of course this fact will be overlooked and dismissed.
This whole thing brought on 12 years of bad luck to the Bulls and they are just now starting to recover. No big name free agents would come here because of how they treated MJ and the dynasy.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm noticing that. The lack of knowledge or honesty by some on this board is disturbing to say the least.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]So what exactly do you disagree with me saying? Jordan also would not play without Pippen, as you know since he said so publicly numerous times. Why didn't you post that? :eek:
:oldlol: [B][U]at these MJ fans acting as if 99' was when the management-players/Jackson dispute started[/U][/B]. Talk about misinformation and misleading younger posters! There was doubt as to whether the team would be brought back for 98' as well and MJ was on record demanding both Pippen and Jackson being retained or he would retire.
Which of those teams were missing their best player? We are talking about "supporting casts." Thanks in advance.
Yes, and Pippen's teammates, coming off 3 rings, adding the clear GOAT Jordan himself, could not make it out the 2nd round in 95'! Oh knowes!
:oldlol: at how MJ fans never mention how MJ screwed the team by retiring at the last minute. The team had the worst "starting" SG in the league and still remained elite. Imagine if MJ retired over the summer and the Bulls had legit starters at all 5 positions.
Kukoc? 9/4/3 as a rookie in the playoffs in 18 minutes. Kerr? 3.5 ppg in the playoffs. :lol at acting as if 94' Kukoc and Kerr were the same guys they later became.[/QUOTE]
I just wrote that Pippen and Jordan and phil had been openly talking about this since 1997. Yes, there WAS doubt that the team would be brought back for the 97-98 season. MJ was working on 1 year contracts.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]So what exactly do you disagree with me saying? Jordan also would not play without Pippen, as you know since he said so publicly numerous times. Why didn't you post that? :eek:
:oldlol: at these MJ fans acting as if 99' was when the management-players/Jackson dispute started. Talk about misinformation and misleading younger posters! There was doubt as to whether the team would be brought back for 98' as well and MJ was on record demanding both Pippen and Jackson being retained or he would retire.
Which of those teams were missing their best player? We are talking about "supporting casts." Thanks in advance.
Yes, and Pippen's teammates, coming off 3 rings, adding the clear GOAT Jordan himself, could not make it out the 2nd round in 95'! Oh knowes!
:oldlol: at how MJ fans never mention how MJ screwed the team by retiring at the last minute. The team had the worst "starting" SG in the league and still remained elite. Imagine if MJ retired over the summer and the Bulls had legit starters at all 5 positions.
Kukoc? 9/4/3 as a rookie in the playoffs in 18 minutes. Kerr? 3.5 ppg in the playoffs. :lol at acting as if 94' Kukoc and Kerr were the same guys they later became.[/QUOTE]
Irrelevant. You said that MJ's teammates were the most talented in the league and used the 94 bulls as an example. MJ's "supporting cast", after winning 3 rings, and adding both Kerr and Kukoc won 55 games and were expelled in the 2nd round. That is far from the "most talented" of the 90s.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]So what exactly do you disagree with me saying? Jordan also would not play without Pippen, as you know since he said so publicly numerous times. Why didn't you post that? :eek:
:oldlol: at these MJ fans acting as if 99' was when the management-players/Jackson dispute started. Talk about misinformation and misleading younger posters! There was doubt as to whether the team would be brought back for 98' as well and MJ was on record demanding both Pippen and Jackson being retained or he would retire.
Which of those teams were missing their best player? We are talking about "supporting casts." Thanks in advance.
Yes, and Pippen's teammates, coming off 3 rings, adding the clear GOAT Jordan himself, could not make it out the 2nd round in 95'! Oh knowes!
:oldlol: at how MJ fans never mention how MJ screwed the team by retiring at the last minute. The team had the worst "starting" SG in the league and still remained elite. Imagine if MJ retired over the summer and the Bulls had legit starters at all 5 positions.
Kukoc? 9/4/3 as a rookie in the playoffs in 18 minutes. Kerr? 3.5 ppg in the playoffs. :lol at acting as if 94' Kukoc and Kerr were the same guys they later became.
And your point is? Pippen had been demanding that kind of raise (to a superstar salary) for years. You make it seem as if 99' was a sea change in that regard. What changed was he became a free agent that year but the Bulls were almost broken up the previous year. We all knew it. Sports Illustrated had a "Last Stand" issue during the 98' season. It was a near run thing that the team was brought back for 98' and there was little chance it would be back in 99'.
Except that is factually incorrect. Pippen left for financial reasons, not Jordan. Jordan--per his own words--simply was not coming back if Jackson and Pippen weren't there, regardless of what he was paid.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't make it out of the 2nd round in 95? Irrelevant. Jordan had been retired for a year and a half, and was out of basketball shape.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]So what exactly do you disagree with me saying? Jordan also would not play without Pippen, as you know since he said so publicly numerous times. Why didn't you post that? :eek:
:oldlol: at these MJ fans acting as if 99' was when the management-players/Jackson dispute started. Talk about misinformation and misleading younger posters! There was doubt as to whether the team would be brought back for 98' as well and MJ was on record demanding both Pippen and Jackson being retained or he would retire.
Which of those teams were missing their best player? We are talking about "supporting casts." Thanks in advance.
Yes, and Pippen's teammates, coming off 3 rings, adding the clear GOAT Jordan himself, could not make it out the 2nd round in 95'! Oh knowes!
:oldlol: at how MJ fans never mention how MJ screwed the team by retiring at the last minute. The team had the worst "starting" SG in the league and still remained elite. Imagine if MJ retired over the summer and the Bulls had legit starters at all 5 positions.
Kukoc? 9/4/3 as a rookie in the playoffs in 18 minutes. Kerr? 3.5 ppg in the playoffs. :lol at acting as if 94' Kukoc and Kerr were the same guys they later became.
And your point is? Pippen had been demanding that kind of raise (to a superstar salary) for years. You make it seem as if 99' was a sea change in that regard. What changed was he became a free agent that year but the Bulls were almost broken up the previous year. We all knew it. Sports Illustrated had a "Last Stand" issue during the 98' season. It was a near run thing that the team was brought back for 98' and there was little chance it would be back in 99'.
Except that is factually incorrect. Pippen left for financial reasons, not Jordan. Jordan--per his own words--simply was not coming back if Jackson and Pippen weren't there, regardless of what he was paid.[/QUOTE]
Kerr and Kukoc in the 93-94 season played a combined 50 minutes per game--strong contributors, adding 20 ppg, 6 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals and half a block, and with Kerr shooting lights out.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]So what exactly do you disagree with me saying? Jordan also would not play without Pippen, as you know since he said so publicly numerous times. Why didn't you post that? :eek:
:oldlol: at these MJ fans acting as if 99' was when the management-players/Jackson dispute started. Talk about misinformation and misleading younger posters! There was doubt as to whether the team would be brought back for 98' as well and MJ was on record demanding both Pippen and Jackson being retained or he would retire.
Which of those teams were missing their best player? We are talking about "supporting casts." Thanks in advance.
Yes, and Pippen's teammates, coming off 3 rings, adding the clear GOAT Jordan himself, could not make it out the 2nd round in 95'! Oh knowes!
:oldlol: at how MJ fans never mention how MJ screwed the team by retiring at the last minute. The team had the worst "starting" SG in the league and still remained elite. Imagine if MJ retired over the summer and the Bulls had legit starters at all 5 positions.
Kukoc? 9/4/3 as a rookie in the playoffs in 18 minutes. Kerr? 3.5 ppg in the playoffs. :lol at acting as if 94' Kukoc and Kerr were the same guys they later became.
And your point is? Pippen had been demanding that kind of raise (to a superstar salary) for years. You make it seem as if 99' was a sea change in that regard. What changed was he became a free agent that year but the Bulls were almost broken up the previous year. We all knew it. Sports Illustrated had a "Last Stand" issue during the 98' season. Jackson called it the "Last Dance." It was a near run thing that the team was brought back for 98' and there was little chance it would be back in 99'.
Except that is factually incorrect. Pippen left for financial reasons, not Jordan. Jordan--per his own words--simply was not coming back if Jackson and Pippen weren't there, regardless of what he was paid.[/QUOTE]
Wrong. The reason Pippen was not staying was because management did not want to pay him. They didn't want to pay Jordan $30million again either considering he would be 36 the next season. They didn't want to continue to pay Phil either. If management had ponied up, the same team would have been there again.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Soothsayer]Irrelevant. [B]You said that MJ's teammates were the most talented in the league [/B]and used the 94 bulls as an example. [/QUOTE]
I've never said that. What I have long said is he had the best "supporting cast" of any superstar in the 90's.
[QUOTE]MJ's "supporting cast", after winning 3 rings, and adding both Kerr and Kukoc won 55 games and were expelled in the 2nd round. That is far from the "most talented" of the 90s.[/QUOTE]
Name "supporting casts" who could do even that in the 90's without their best player? Thanks in advance.
[QUOTE]
Couldn't make it out of the 2nd round in 95? Irrelevant. Jordan had been retired for a year and a half, and was out of basketball shape.[/QUOTE]
:lol He averaged 32/7/5 on 48% while taking 25 shots a game in 42 minutes in the 95' playoffs.
[QUOTE]Kerr and Kukoc in the 93-94 season played a combined 50 minutes per game--strong contributors, adding 20 ppg, 6 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals and half a block, and with Kerr shooting lights out.[/QUOTE]
Yeah--and they disappeared in the playoffs when it counted. Again, 9/4/3 in 18 minutes from Kukoc and 3.5 ppg from Kerr in the playoffs yet the Knicks (with Ewing) still needed Hue Hollins to "win"!
Plus, Cartwright and Paxson were banged up in 94'. Cartwright played only 5 minutes in the Cleveland series. Why don't MJ fans mention this? The only key players on all cylinders on the playoffs were Pippen, Grant, and Armstrong.
[QUOTE]The reason Pippen was not staying was because management did not want to pay him.[/QUOTE]
You failed to grasp what "financial reasons" meant.
[QUOTE] If management had ponied up, the same team would have been there again.[/QUOTE]
For all three yes, but if they gave MJ $33 million and did not retain Jackson and Pippen we all know--even though you may say otherwise--MJ would not have come back.
Again, why is all this (diminishing MJ's teammates) necessary if the claims about MJ are accurate?
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
Personally I have Jordan as the GOAT because of combination. He has the best combination of statistics\dominance\awards\rings\skill. Usually people will use Russel over MJ for winning\Wilt over MJ because of statistics\dominance and what that proves is you have to use more than 1 player to debunk MJ's case for GOAT. Clearly when looking at the best ever you have to combine everything and when you do that MJ has the best case. 6 finals appearances and 6 FMVP's? Insane. There is always going to be a player that tops him in one area like Wilt\Kareem\Russel but IMO I don't think there's a player that has the combination.