Scottie Pippen appreciation thread.

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]If Pippen would not have played with one of the greatest ball hoggs in NBA History he would have been a constant 22 (48%), 8, 7, 2, 1.5 Player

His stats are lowered because he had to play in a triangle offense

No player had more responsabilities than Pippen in the Bulls

He had to guard the Best Offensive Player
He had to control the Perimeter Defensively
He had to be the 2nd Best Rebounder
He had to be the Creator (Jordan was a pathetic creator for others, Timing Plays)
He had to be the 2nd Lead Scorer


U have to sacrifice stats if u play with the biggest ball hogg of the 80s and early 90s[/B][/QUOTE]

^^ Perfect example of why Pippen will forever go unappreciated. He's either used as a tool to diminish Jordan or not thought of at all. What the f*ck is "Timing Plays" anyway? This thread shouldn't be about Jordan. Why should we need to prop up or denigrate Jordan just to show "appreciation" for Pippen? That shouldn't be anyone's legacy. But this fool doesn't care because he's not a Pippen fan. He just hates Jordan.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]^^ Perfect example of why Pippen will forever go unappreciated. He's either used as a tool to diminish Jordan or not thought of at all. What the f*ck is "Timing Plays" anyway? This thread shouldn't be about Jordan. Why should we need to prop up or denigrate Jordan just to show "appreciation" for Pippen? That shouldn't be anyone's legacy. But this fool doesn't care because he's not a Pippen fan. He just hates Jordan.[/QUOTE]

I agree, the majority of Pippen backers try to tear down Jordan to prop up Pippen.

Sometimes a players greatness speaks for itself and those who don't understand it certainly won't come any closer if you use phrases like "Jordan was a pathetic creator for others."

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]a players greatness speaks for itself[/QUOTE]

Perfect statement.

[I]You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to G.O.A.T again.[/I]

:oldlol: at the irony. Where was the castigation when MJ backers--as they do in every Pippen thread--started "tearing down Pippen to prop up Jordan" early in this thread? The castigation needed 10 pages to manifest. GOAT, weren't you the one who on page 1 of this thread was claiming Pippen was not a good leader? :lol That isn't "tearing down", though, right? Surely that was based on solid evidence of leadership or the lack thereof, such as scoring average and playoff career highs in scoring.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]^^ Perfect example of why Pippen will forever go unappreciated. He's either used as a tool to diminish Jordan or not thought of at all. What the f*ck is "Timing Plays" anyway? This thread shouldn't be about Jordan. Why should we need to prop up or denigrate Jordan just to show "appreciation" for Pippen? That shouldn't be anyone's legacy. But this fool doesn't care because he's not a Pippen fan. He just hates Jordan.[/QUOTE]

[B]I am Jordan fan to. I consider him the Best SG guard ever but i am not going to overrate him like his fans, no way.

But he was never a hero to anyone but Nike: The media puts it out as he dominated games to a total. Which is not true ofcourse.

Wilt did that.

We need to say it how it is with the so many Jordan Stans around.

Roundball where is the thred i made about Pippen`s Winning % with Higher Usage.[/B]

[B]If Jordan was a player that made others better

Explain to us how when he left in 1993-94 the Bulls had 55 wins?

Everyone, Everyone shot a higher FG%. If that team was so bad they would have scored at a lower FG% but it was the total opposite.

Pippen finished Top 4 In PER without the ball hogg.

Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan.

Jordan never made ANYONE BETTER, EVER![/B]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:oldlol: at the irony. Where was the castigation when MJ backers--as they do in every Pippen thread--started "tearing down Pippen to prop up Jordan" early in this thread? [/QUOTE]

Most people who make a case for MJ don't even mention Pippen. But rest assured the same standard should be held both ways.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]The castigation needed 10 pages to manifest. GOAT, weren't you the one who on page 1 of this thread was claiming Pippen was not a good leader? [/QUOTE]

No, I wasn't actually. Here's what I said

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]The only thing he couldn't do was take over a game wit his scoring. He really didn't have many moves to create his own shot and was a great shooter off the dribble.

That's not much of a weakness considering he was still a 20 point scorer, but it was very rare that Pippen went for 30.

I always liked his demeanor on the court, so calm and consistent he never seemed to get rattled. And very few players were as smooth.

Defensively I think he gets a little overrated now (only by people who say he is one of the best few defensive players ever), but that's not to say he wasn't one of the best perimeter defenders of his era, because he was. The best part about his defense is that he accepted that role, as the #1 defensive option. He guarded everyone from Isiah Thomas to Chris Webber to Larry Johnson and everyone in between.[/QUOTE]

Specific to leadership I said this about Pippen in a scenario as histeams best player...

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I also don't think he would have been a good leader, but he never really had to be so i don't hold that against him. As it is I believe it's between him and John Havilcek and Kevin McHale as the best complimentary star players of all-time. All guys who could play and guard multiple positions as well as score, rebound and pass.[/QUOTE]

Later after looking more into the Pippen leadership angle, I asked this question:

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]What examples do we have of Pippen being a good leader?

Late in his career he was a cancer in Houston and the so-called leader of the most undisciplined team in the NBA (Portland)

He was almost never a problem player, but I never thought of him as a leader.

Someone set me straight if I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]

Seem's pretty fair to me...especially after this response from jlip

[QUOTE=jlip][I]"On the Bulls he [Pippen] was probably the player most liked by the others. He mingled. He could bring out the best in the players and communicate the best. [B]Leadership, real leadership, is one of his strengths[/B]. Everybody would say Michael is a great leader. He leads by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. [B]Scottie's leadership was equally dominant[/B], but it's a leadership of patting the back, support."[/I]

Phil Jackson
[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1017938/5/index.htm[/url]

"[I][B]Scottie was our team leader.[/B] He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...[/I]"

Phil Jackson
[url]http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2005/12/scottie-pippens-place-in-basketball.html[/url]

Bill Wennington echoes the same sentiments in his book, entitled [I]Bill Wennington's Tales from the Bulls Hardwood[/I]. He says

[I]"Scottie was my favorite Bull. It's not the most popular thing to say in Chicago, because Michael is supposed to be everybody's favorite. And I loved Michael as a person and as a teammate. I just appreciated Scottie more...

Michael will test you everyday. But Michael will also let you burn in the coach's eyes to see how you handle the situation. [B]Scottie handled his relationships with his teammates differently, and better, in my opinion [/B]...

My first season with the Bulls was the 1993-94 season, the first one Michael did not play because of his initial retirement. In that season I saw Scottie as No. 1...I played with a lot of players--Chris Webber, Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins--[B]Scottie was head and shoulders above all of those players in terms of leadership [/B]and what he stood for as a team basketball player...

...But what Scottie represented to me is a player whom I would pick 1st for my team every time. Even if Michael was available, I would pick Scottie Pippen...

...[B]Scottie led that team[/B] ['93-'94 Bulls] to 55 wins...Maybe it's apples to oranges, but t[B]hat season was an indication of what Scottie was capable of doing as a team leader.[/B]"[/I]
[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=EipQcbzkyvoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=bill+wennington&hl=en&ei=vTiaTKq6MoG0lQeMvJTuDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url] pp.11-17[/QUOTE]

And my response to being set straight...

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Very good stuff.

How's Wennington's book overall?

I was under more of the impression that Pippen was more like a Sam Jones who preferred not having the attention on him and kind of a loner.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]lol That isn't "tearing down", though, right? Surely that was based on solid evidence of leadership or the lack thereof, such as scoring average and playoff career highs in scoring.[/QUOTE]

If only you could have went back and read what was actually said and look at within the context of the discussion.

[B]Jordan`s HOF speech

"Me Me Me Me Me, I Took the Last Shot, I Wish Russell was Still Guarding Me"

He mentioned Pippen at the beggining of the Speech and the rest he talked about how he was the Greatest Competitor Ever etc etc etc.

Half of the Speech Should have been about Pippen and yes Phil Jackson.

But no he got passed that at and then wen`t on about his heroics.

Jordan would have NO RINGS WITHOUT PIPPEN OR PHIL.

Fact

Jordan never had a Winning % without Pippen, Grant and Phil.

Then he had Rodman: The Goat Rebounder of the 90s and a Top Defender.

Kukoc: Great Player All Around too.

Jordan had Great Teams gtfout here Jordan stans.[/B]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:oldlol: at the irony. Where was the castigation when MJ backers--as they do in every Pippen thread--started "tearing down Pippen to prop up Jordan" early in this thread? The castigation needed 10 pages to manifest. GOAT, weren't you the one who on page 1 of this thread was claiming Pippen was not a good leader? :lol That isn't "tearing down", though, right? Surely that was based on solid evidence of leadership or the lack thereof, such as scoring average and playoff career highs in scoring.[/QUOTE]

:applause:


[B]Roundball

Where is the Thred i made about Jordan`s Winning % without Pippen and Grant, Phil and the System Perfect for the Ball Hogg. Where Pippen did more things than every player.

Jordan`s Usage % Lowered and Let Pippen do the CREATING and they won.

Thats how it was. He was no Hero to Anyone but those who like flashy ballet slam dunks and acrobatic shots. Thats it[/B]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]If Jordan was a player that made others better

Explain to us how when he left in 1993-94 the Bulls had 55 wins?

Everyone, Everyone shot a higher FG%. If that team was so bad they would have scored at a lower FG% but it was the total opposite.

Pippen finished Top 4 In PER without the ball hogg.

Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan.

Jordan never made ANYONE BETTER, EVER![/B][/QUOTE]

Dig a little deeper. Look at the franchise before MJ. Look at the changes that needed to happen over the long haul. Look at how many coaches that came and went. Pippen came in 87. Jordan was already there in 84. Who set the tone for practice every single day? Who set the tone for the Bulls to be competitive every single game? Who set that standard? I know you can get this...

Do you know that 1994 was Pippen's 7th year? Pippen didn't start the company, he maintained the company in the CEO's absence. He should be given great credit for that, but let's not act like he's better than the guy that built the company in the first place. Pippen was an apprentice for 7 years. Didn't have to answer the tough questions. He could just let his play speak for itself for 7 years. We didn't see Pippen at year 2 lead anything -- he didn't have to. Because (you know the answer). In your honest opinion, could Pippen have led that team to 55 wins in 91? Who did Pippen himself credit for helping him reach his potential? Do you think Pippen would have been Pippen playing beside fat, lazy, unmotivated Charles Barkley for the first 7 years of his career?

Do you know that Jordan led a much worse cast with a different coach to 50 wins in your precious 80's (1988) when he was much younger and had less experience? No Phil Jackson (as head coach), no triangle offense, no great player beside him. 50 wins. Why would we think a more championship experienced version of Jordan working with Phil Jackson within the triangle offense after having won 3 titles couldn't do 5 games better if everyone started the season saying they wouldn't win squat?

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Dig a little deeper. Look at the franchise before MJ. Look at the changes that needed to happen over the long haul. Look at how many coaches that came and went. Pippen came in 87. Jordan was already there in 84. Who set the tone for practice every single day? Who set the tone for the Bulls to be competitive every single game? Who set that standard? I know you can get this...

Do you know that 1994 was Pippen's 7th year? Pippen didn't start the company, he maintained the company in the CEO's absence. He should be given great credit for that, but let's not act like he's better than the guy that built the company in the first place. Pippen was an apprentice for 7 years. Didn't have to answer the tough questions. He could just let his play speak for itself for 7 years. We didn't see Pippen at year 2 lead anything -- he didn't have to. Because (you know the answer). In your honest opinion, could Pippen have led that team to 55 wins in 91? Who did Pippen himself credit for helping him reach his potential? Do you think Pippen would have been Pippen playing beside fat, lazy, unmotivated Charles Barkley for the first 7 years of his career?

Do you know that Jordan led a much worse cast with a different coach to 50 wins in your precious 80's (1988) when he was much younger and had less experience? No Phil Jackson (as head coach), no triangle offense, no great player beside him. 50 wins. Why would we think a more championship experienced version of Jordan working with Phil Jackson within the triangle offense after having won 3 titles couldn't do 5 games better if everyone started the season saying they wouldn't win squat?[/QUOTE]
The funny thing about 1988 his 2nd leading scorer only played 20+ games :lol Mj was just on another level in 1988. He snatched a MVP from Bird and Magic when it looked like they would take the rest of the decades MVP.

Dig a little deeper. Look at the franchise before MJ. Look at the changes that needed to happen over the long haul. Look at how many coaches that came and went. Pippen came in 87. Jordan was already there in 84. Who set the tone for practice every single day? Who set the tone for the Bulls to be competitive every single game? Who set that standard? I know you can get this...

[B]The changes for Jordan to win was Phil.

Pippen as the Point-Forward (less creating for the ball hogg with no court vision).

Jordan was a great competitor i agree but he was no god, who set the standard? Phil

Jordan was untrianable because he did not like to share the ball.[/B]


Do you know that 1994 was Pippen's 7th year? Pippen didn't start the company, he maintained the company in the CEO's absence.

[B]I don`t give a shit about who started the company.

No Jordan = the following:

-Everyone Shot a Higher FG%
-Pippen 4th In PER, Top in DRT (only SF in the top)
-Grant shot higher
-Pippen shot higher
- Paxon shot higher etc..

55 Wins.[/B]

He should be given great credit for that, but let's not act like he's better than the guy that built the company in the first place. Pippen was an apprentice for 7 years. Didn't have to answer the tough questions. He could just let his play speak for itself for 7 years. We didn't see Pippen at year 2 lead anything -- he didn't have to. Because (you know the answer). In your honest opinion, could Pippen have led that team to 55 wins in 91? Who did Pippen himself credit for helping him reach his potential? Do you think Pippen would have been Pippen playing beside fat, lazy, unmotivated Charles Barkley for the first 7 years of his career?

[B]Barkley had back problems from 1994 on the same was Bird and then he busted his knee the 1996-97 season. Barkley was lazy? yes...but once the game started he played hard.

Pippen did shit the 1999 Play-Offs: Barkley owned the Lakers at age 35 while Hakeem and Pippen did nothing. Pippen shot 42% FG that series

Why do u bring up Barkley this is about Pippen u pie-ce of shit.[/B]


Do you know that Jordan led a much worse cast with a different coach to 50 wins in your precious 80's (1988) when he was much younger and had less experience? No Phil Jackson (as head coach), no triangle offense, no great player beside him. 50 wins. Why would we think a more championship experienced version of Jordan working with Phil Jackson within the triangle offense after having won 3 titles couldn't do 5 games better if everyone started the season saying they wouldn't win squat?

[B]1985-86: Jordan injured: Bulls MADE IT TO THE PLAY-OFFS.

Loosing % because thats how it was in the 80s, competitive era un like the 90s.

How did he make others better?

Jordan is the creation of Phil, The Triangle Offense (for it to work u need a Creating Big Man like Pau or a Monster Multi Positional Player like Pippen)[/B]

I appreciate the fact that he gave so much of his money to people who are smarter then he is. It might have taken some of the criminal elements of the streets because the've been able to retire.

[QUOTE=Round Mound]
[B]Loosing % because thats how it was in the 80s, competitive era un like the 90s.[/B][/QUOTE]

So how much is 50 wins in 1988 worth in the uncompetitive 90's? 60? :eek: Jordan with 2 years experience in the league could have led a 90's team to 60 wins! :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Jordan is the creation of Phil, The Triangle Offense (for it to work u need a Creating Big Man like Pau or a Monster Multi Positional Player like Pippen)[/B][/QUOTE]

:oldlol: Jordan must have put a bug in your panties. I know you were [I]miserable[/I] in the 90's! Barkley quitting on the Sixers. Spitting on little girls. Throwing dudes out of windows. Couldn't get it done with the Suns. Losing a 3-1 lead to the Rockets WITH homecourt advantage. Actually put up a whopping 5 points on 0-10 fgs against them one game. Couldn't beat them, so he joined them. They never even made the Finals. And who do you see over and over and over and over and over and over again lifting up the title and Finals MVP? That damn JORDAN :mad: :rant

:roll:

^

Ouch, :roll: