Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]Does anyone else read all those Wilt quotes as a guy who is jealous that other people are being praised? Probably the same instinct that led him to brag about the number of women he has slept with.[/QUOTE]

All of them are very competitive in their talks. Russell and Kareem have said some viscous things about Wilt and he didn't go back at them with the same venom. Wilt and Jordan had the big argument at the 50 greatest celebration (Jordan saying that he was like Shaq - and yea Shaq was there) and Wilt saying they created rules to slow me down and created them to help you out. The other people in attendance said this is the norm and one journalist told me these arguments are frequently 5 years long. Wilt far out praises other greats than the others do - the exception would be Magic. You rarely hear praise much from the others. Wilt said Shaq could be greater than him because of his abandon at going to the rim. Later on, he criticized Shaq for just being a brute.

[QUOTE=PHILA][I]

"Wilt was big on stats. One time he called me up and said, 'You know, Harvey, Michael Jordan can't hit a shot beyond 15 feet?'

I said, 'How do you know that?'

He said to me, 'Don't you watch the games?'

I said, 'I don't watch stuff like that. How do you know?'

He said, 'I watch it.'

So, during the height of Michael's career, I got the play-by-play of the first 20 Bulls games and I checked the distance of every shot Jordan took during the season and sure enough, he was shooting 38 percent from 15 feet back. So, I did 20 more and came up with the same result. So then I said, if I did 40, I might as well do 82. Wilt

[quote=KevinNYC]Does anyone else read all those Wilt quotes as a guy who is jealous that other people are being praised? Probably the same instinct that led him to brag about the number of women he has slept with.[/quote][I]Chamberlain was asked if he or Michael Jordan was the best player ever. "I watched a couple of years ago when they were talking about two other guys as being the greatest and that was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Dr. J (Julius Erving)," Chamberlain said. " Then they had the one-on-one competition. You know who won that competition? It was not even a contest. Kareem killed him. "What you may think is the best, it's always subjective. What Michael does on the court for his team is the greatest. He's playing his position as well as anybody has. He has something going in his favor, and that's the flair with which he plays the game. People love that. His baskets are more than just two or three points. "I'm not so sure that Oscar Robertson might not have been the greatest basketball player to have ever played. However, there was nothing really sensational about his game."

-1997[/I]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I repeat they were a last place team because their franchise center suffered a career ending injury during that season.

Never once have you even acknowledged that this happened let alone mention it unprovoked.

I can also tell you that the EXACT SAME core of players Arizin, Gola, Graboski and a healthy Johnston plus Jack George won the NBA title in '56 and were in the Eastern Finals in '58.

[B]Can also tell you that Gola actually received votes in the 1970 poll for greatest player of all time, but you'll still foolishly believe and try to convince others to believe that he was a undeserving or borderline Hall of Famer like KC Jones and Frank Ramsey[/B].

You don't care though, your mind is made up, I'm wasting as little time as possible.[/QUOTE]

I just couldn't let this one pass. Some IDIOT voted Gola as the G.O.A.T in the 1970???? Must have been the same guy that did NOT vote for Willie Mays in his first year of eligibilty in the baseball HOF. Gola was never even the best player on his own team's, and his career numbers of 11.3 ppg, 7.8 rpg, and .431 FG% are among the worst by any NBA player in the HOF. In fact I could list a TON of players who are far more deserving of the HOF than Gola. Chet Walker was a MUCH better player his entire career, and for some reason Artis Gilmore, who was FAR more of a force in his professional career, as well as Bernard King, who led the NBA in scoring and who some MONSTER post-season games, are just a few of the many were head-and-shoulders above Gola...and are NOT in the HOF.

Please, don't embarrass yourself with these ridiculous posts.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I just couldn't let this one pass. Some IDIOT voted Gola as the G.O.A.T in the 1970???? Must have been the same guy that did NOT vote for Willie Mays in his first year of eligibilty in the baseball HOF. Gola was never even the best player on his own team's, and his career numbers of 11.3 ppg, 7.8 rpg, and .431 FG% are among the worst by any NBA player in the HOF. In fact I could list a TON of players who are far more deserving of the HOF than Gola. Chet Walker was a MUCH better player his entire career, and for some reason Artis Gilmore, who was FAR more of a force in his professional career, as well as Bernard King, who led the NBA in scoring and who some MONSTER post-season games, are just a few of the many were head-and-shoulders above Gola...and are NOT in the HOF.

Please, don't embarrass yourself with these ridiculous posts.[/QUOTE]

I'm curious, was Neil Johnston hurt during the 58-59 season?

How about Gola?

How was Gola doing during the 1962 playoffs?

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I'm curious, was Neil Johnston hurt during the 58-59 season?

How about Gola?

How was Gola doing during the 1962 playoffs?[/QUOTE]

Huh???

Not sure what your point is/was. The 58-59 Warriors were a LAST-PLACE team, and then Johnston retired. And, in the 56-57 and 57-58 seasons, with their core players in their primes, they went 37-35...basically a .500 team. In Wilt's first season, he led them to a then best-ever record team record of 49-26. So, yes, Chamberlain made a HUGE difference on an average-at-best, team (and one that finished in LAST-PLACE the year before he came onboard.)

And please, don't bring up the fact that they won a title in 55-56. That was pre-Russell and Heinsohn, and far removed from the team that came in LAST-PLACE in 58-59, or the year before Wilt arrived. If you are going use that ridiculous argument, then I could say that the Celtics didn't miss a beat after Russell retired, either. Three years after he retired, they went 56-26. Four years afterwards they went 68-14 (still their best team record ever), and five years after his retirement they won a title (and would win again in another couple of years.)

As for Gola...so what? He missed some games in 58-59, and clearly his 14 ppg and 11 rpg were missed. But let's not make him out as some kind of superstar.

As for his play in the '62 playoffs. He was AWFUL. 6.3 ppg on .271 shooting. And STILL, Chamberlain was able to overcome Gola's inept play and take that vastly inferior Warrior roster to a game seven, two-point loss against the 60-20 Celtics and their 6-3 edge in HOFers (one of those being Gola BTW.)

[QUOTE=jlauber]Huh???

Not sure what your point is/was. The 58-59 Warriors were a LAST-PLACE team, and then Johnston retired. And, in the 56-57 and 57-58 seasons, with their core players in their primes, they went 37-35...basically a .500 team. In Wilt's first season, he led them to a then best-ever record team record of 49-26. So, yes, Chamberlain made a HUGE difference on an average-at-best, team (and one that finished in LAST-PLACE the year before he came onboard.)

And please, don't bring up the fact that they won a title in 55-56. That was pre-Russell and Heinsohn, and far removed from the team that came in LAST-PLACE in 58-59, or the year before Wilt arrived. If you are going use that ridiculous argument, then I could say that the Celtics didn't miss a beat after Russell retired, either. Three years after he retired, they went 56-26. Four years afterwards they went 68-14 (still their best team record ever), and five years after his retirement they won a title (and would win again in another couple of years.)

As for Gola...so what? He missed some games in 58-59, and clearly his 14 ppg and 11 rpg were missed. But let's not make him out as some kind of superstar.

As for his play in the '62 playoffs. He was AWFUL. 6.3 ppg on .271 shooting. And STILL, Chamberlain was able to overcome Gola's inept play and take that vastly inferior Warrior roster to a game seven, two-point loss against the 60-20 Celtics and their 6-3 edge in HOFers (one of those being Gola BTW.)[/QUOTE]

So did Neil Johnston's career ending injury have anything to do with why the Warriors finished in last place?

Was Gola healthy during the 1962 playoffs?

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]So did Neil Johnston's career ending injury have anything to do with why the Warriors finished in last place?

Was Gola healthy during the 1962 playoffs?[/QUOTE]

Here again, I am perplexed. The Warriors finished in LAST PLACE in 58-59. Was Johnston's injury a factor. Probably. BUT, they were basically a .500 team in the two years before that. So, once again, Wilt came to that LAST-PLACE roster, and elevated them to a then best-ever record of 49-26 in his very first season.

And, even if Gola was injured in the '62 post-season, Chamberlain still CARRIED that crappy roster to a near upset of the 60-20 Celtics and their SIX HOFers, DESPITE Gola contributing absolutely NOTHING. One of the greatest miracles in NBA history...along with Wilt taking the 40-40 76ers (who had been 34-46 the year before he arrived) to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics in the 64-65 ECF's.

But, yes, had Gola just scored THREE more lousy points in the '62 ECF's, and Wilt very likely would have shattered every post-season scoring record set by MJ, and probably led the Warriors to a title that year.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Here again, I am perplexed. The Warriors finished in LAST PLACE in 58-59. Was Johnston's injury a factor. Probably. BUT, they were basically a .500 team in the two years before that. So, once again, Wilt came to that LAST-PLACE roster, and elevated them to a then best-ever record of 49-26 in his very first season.

And, even if Gola was injured in the '62 post-season, Chamberlain still CARRIED that crappy roster to a near upset of the 60-20 Celtics and their SIX HOFers, DESPITE Gola contributing absolutely NOTHING. One of the greatest miracles in NBA history...along with Wilt taking the 40-40 76ers (who had been 34-46 the year before he arrived) to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics in the 64-65 ECF's.[/QUOTE]

This is super interesting. I would have thought losing a franchise center like Johnston would be crippling.

Good thing we have you to set us straight and proclaim the miracles of Wilt.

Tell me, why is it that you, with all this knowledge of the '62 series, don't even know about Gola's injury's which were a major story line. I mean not only was he battling a bad back (which plagued him his entire career after a fall as a high schooler) but he also had a severely sprained ankle during game four. It shocks me that you, clearly so knowledgeable about Gola and the rest of Wilt's teammates didn't know this.

Of course Gola was such an awful player that it probably helped the Warriors. I am sure glad you've taught me how bad Gola was, but it does make me a little confused.

I mean this article actually seems to suggest that losing Gola hurt the Warriors in 1963...and that...you won't believe this, Wilt actually misses Gola.

Here's an equally suspicious article that suggests that coach McGuire might actually have thought losing Gola and his zero production would hurt the Warriors too.

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JfUiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=P80FAAAAIBAJ&pg=923,210701&dq=tom+gola+star&hl=en[/url]


Here's a news clipping you might find interesting, discussing the chest surgery Gola had to have in 1958 that forced him to play at half speed and eventually temporarily retire in 1958. Obviously though, that didn't have anything to do with why the Warriors finished in last in 1958-59.

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=U3soAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GsoEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4611,663141&dq=tom+gola+injury&hl=en[/url]

You really need to build a time machine travel back and set all these people right.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]This is super interesting. I would have thought losing a franchise center like Johnston would be crippling.

Good thing we have you to set us straight and proclaim the miracles of Wilt.

Tell me, why is it that you, with all this knowledge of the '62 series, don't even know about Gola's injury's which were a major story line. I mean not only was he battling a bad back (which plagued him his entire career after a fall as a high schooler) but he also had a severely sprained ankle during game four. It shocks me that you, clearly so knowledgeable about Gola and the rest of Wilt's teammates didn't know this.

Of course Gola was such an awful player that it probably helped the Warriors. I am sure glad you've taught me how bad Gola was, but it does make me a little confused.

I mean this article actually seems to suggest that losing Gola hurt the Warriors in 1963...and that...you won't believe this, Wilt actually misses Gola.

Here's an equally suspicious article that suggests that coach McGuire might actually have thought losing Gola and his zero production would hurt the Warriors too.

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JfUiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=P80FAAAAIBAJ&pg=923,210701&dq=tom+gola+star&hl=en[/url]


Here's a news clipping you might find interesting, discussing the chest surgery Gola had to have in 1958 that forced him to play at half speed and eventually temporarily retire in 1958. Obviously though, that didn't have anything to do with why the Warriors finished in last in 1958-59.

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=U3soAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GsoEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4611,663141&dq=tom+gola+injury&hl=en[/url]

You really need to build a time machine travel back and set all these people right.[/QUOTE]

YOU are trying to build Gola up as a legendary superstar. Hell, Happy Hairston contributed more to his team's than Gola did his.

And, Wilt not only lost Gola in that '63 season, Arizin, who was a LEGITIMATE HOFer, retired as well. And how bad was Wilt's roster in '63. Chamberlain shot .528 from the field (in addition to leading the league in 15 of the 22 statistical categories), while his teammates collectively shot .412...or WAY less than the WORST team in the league (.427.) Jeez, the only mistake Wilt made in that '63 season was passing the ball at all (3.0 apg.) And his coach should have had him taking EVERY shot. They would have had a better chance.

And, you can post all the garbage you want. You expect me to believe that Johnston, Gola, Arizin et.al were some great team before Wilt arrived? Once again, throw out their injury-plagued 58-59 season, and go with their previous two years. They went 37-35 in both, and were basically a .500 team. Furthermore, it is not as if Johnston PLAYED in Wilt's rookie year. So, the fact was, Wilt replaced Johnston, and carried what had been an average-at-BEST team, AND a LAST-PLACE team in the year before Wilt, to a BEST-EVER record of 49-26 in his very FIRST season.

It seems that you are attempting to disparage Chamberlain here by somehow suggesting that his surrounding players, were some great dynasty before he arrived. They were, AT BEST, a .500 team. And then, they LOST Johnston.

Wilt didn't have the luxury that Russell had. Russell came to a 39-33 playoff team...along with ROY Tom Heinsohn in HIS first year. And a year later they added HOFer Sam Jones.

Chamberlain went to a LAST-PLACE team, that really only had one QUALITY player, in Arizin, and a decent, but nothing more, Gola, and very little else. Not only that, but Gola was absolutely AWFUL in ALL three post-seasons in which he was paired up with Chamberlain. Too bad he couldn't have contributed a few more points in the '62 ECF's, because I am convinced that Wilt, despite an average roster, would have won his first title.

But, if YOU honestly believe that Gola was the NBA's Greatest Player of All-Time, as YOU suggested in a previous post, then I'm sorry, but YOU, along with the idiot that voted him as such, have to be the ONLY two in the entire world that have ever felt that way. I'm sure even Gola himself must have been laughing at that one.

[QUOTE=jlauber]YOU are trying to build Gola up as a legendary superstar. Hell, Happy Hairston contributed more to his team's than Gola did his.

And, Wilt not only lost Gola in that '63 season, Arizin, who was a LEGITIMATE HOFer, retired as well.

And, you can post all the garbage you want. You expect me to believe that Johnston, Gola, Arizin et.al were some great team before Wilt arrived? Once again, throw out their injury-plagued 58-59 season, and go with their previous two years. They went 37-35 in both, and were basically a .500 team. Furthermore, it is not as if Johnston PLAYED in Wilt's rookie year. So, the fact was, Wilt replaced Johnston, and carried what had been an average-at-BEST team, AND a LAST-PLACE team in the year before Wilt, to a BEST-EVER record of 49-26 in his very FIRST season.

It seems that you are attempting to disparage Chamberlain here by somehow suggesting that his surrounding players, were some great dynasty before he arrived. They were, AT BEST, a .500 team. And then, they LOST Johnston.

Wilt didn't have the luxury that Russell had. Russell came to a 39-33 playoff team...along with ROY Tom Heinsohn in HIS first year. And a year later they added HOFer Sam Jones.

Chamberlain went to a LAST-PLACE team, that really only had one QUALITY player, in Arizin, and a decent, but nothing more, Gola, and very little else. Not only that, but Gola was absolutely AWFUL in ALL three post-seasons in which he was paired up with Chamberlain. Too bad he couldn't have contributed a few more points in the '62 ECF's, because I am convinced that Wilt, despite an average roster, would have won his first title.

But, if YOU honestly believe that Gola was the NBA's Greatest Player of All-Time, as YOU suggested in a previous post, then I'm sorry, but YOU, along with the idiot that voted him as such, have to be the ONLY two in the entire world that have ever felt that way. I'm sure even Gola himself must have been laughing at that one.[/QUOTE]

Neil Johnston is 9th all-time in PER and led his team to the 1956 NBA title and they were in the conference finals in his last full year of 1958. It's clearly obvious that losing a player of his caliber would be detrimental to any team.

And it's okay to have your thoughts on Tom Gola no matter how misguided they are. Tom Gola was highly regarded by his contemporaries and all journalists of his era. Since you were not around to experience his play and have provided no evidence that the experts of Gola's time were wrong I'll have to go with their analysis of him.

[QUOTE=nycelt84]Neil Johnston is 9th all-time in PER and led his team to the 1956 NBA title and they were in the conference finals in his last full year of 1958. It's clearly obvious that losing a player of his caliber would be detrimental to any team.

And it's okay to have your thoughts on Tom Gola no matter how misguided they are. Tom Gola was highly regarded by his contemporaries and all journalists of his era. Since you were not around to experience his play and have provided no evidence that the experts of Gola's time were wrong I'll have to go with their analysis of him.[/QUOTE]

I don't need the journalists of that era to explain to me why Wilt didn't beat Russell's teams more often. In Wilt's first six years in the NBA, Russell enjoyed an edge in HOF teammates of, 7-3, 7-3, 6-3, 8-1, 7-2, and 5-2. Even in the last four, when Chamberlain led his team's to better records, he had margins of 5-3, 6-3 (and Wilt's Sixers obliterated Boston that year), 5-3 and 4-3.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I don't need the journalists of that era to explain to me why Wilt didn't beat Russell's teams more often. In Wilt's first six years in the NBA, Russell enjoyed an edge in HOF teammates of, 7-3, 7-3, 6-3, 8-1, 7-2, and 5-2. Even in the last four, when Chamberlain led his team's to better records, he had margins of 5-3, 6-3, 5-3 and 4-3.[/QUOTE]

That's not what I posted at all, I don't understand why you ignored my post or posted numbers of HOF teammates with no context. Again since you completely ignored my post.

Neil Johnston is 9th all-time in PER and led his team to the 1956 NBA title along with Arizin and Gola and in his last full season they went to the 1958 Eastern Conference Finals.

Tom Gola was highly regarded in his time and was a 5 time All-Star as well as one of if not the best defensive Forward of his day. I'll have to go along with the expert analysis of Gola during his era who all considered him one of the best players in the league than to go along with the analysis of someone who was not around to experience it nor provided any evidence that those who saw Gola were actually wrong.

[QUOTE=PHILA][I]

"Wilt was big on stats. One time he called me up and said, 'You know, Harvey, Michael Jordan can't hit a shot beyond 15 feet?'

I said, 'How do you know that?'

He said to me, 'Don't you watch the games?'

I said, 'I don't watch stuff like that. How do you know?'

He said, 'I watch it.'

So, during the height of Michael's career, I got the play-by-play of the first 20 Bulls games and I checked the distance of every shot Jordan took during the season and sure enough, he was shooting 38 percent from 15 feet back. So, I did 20 more and came up with the same result. So then I said, if I did 40, I might as well do 82. Wilt

[QUOTE=nycelt84]That's not what I posted at all, I don't understand why you ignored my post or posted numbers of HOF teammates with no context. Again since you completely ignored my post.

Neil Johnston is 9th all-time in PER and led his team to the 1956 NBA title along with Arizin and Gola and in his last full season they went to the 1958 Eastern Conference Finals.

Tom Gola was highly regarded in his time and was a 5 time All-Star as well as one of if not the best defensive Forward of his day. I'll have to go along with the expert analysis of Gola during his era who all considered him one of the best players in the league than to go along with the analysis of someone who was not around to experience it nor provided any evidence that those who saw Gola were actually wrong.[/QUOTE]

Here again, I am perplexed. What is it with you and GOAT? The Warriors won a title in the 55-56 season, which was pre-Russell AND Heinsohn. They then went 37-35, 37-35, and 32-40 over the next three seasons. Yes, in a limited league, they went to the ECF's in 57-58, and were blown out by Boston, 4-1. So what?

And, Johnston was injured in 58-59, and the Warriors, basically a .500 team the year before, dropped to LAST-PLACE. Now, did Johnston return in Wilt's rookie year? Hell no. He was done. YET, Chamberlain took what had been a .500 team, that perhaps had lost their best player to injury and retirement, and had fallen to LAST-PLACE, to a then BEST-EVER record in Chamberlain's rookie year of 49-26 (which was even better than their 45-27 championship team in 55-56.)

And why do guys continually bring up that 55-56 season? That was FOUR years before Wilt arrived. Once again, using the same ridiculous analogy, I could argue that Boston was even BETTER after Russell retired. Three years after he retired, they went 56-26 (Russell's Celtics were 48-34 in his last year.) Foru years after he retired they went 68-14 (which is STILL the best ever in their HISTORY), and five years after he retired they won an NBA title (and would win another two years after that.)

As for Gola...maybe I am missing something here. The man was a CAREER 11.3 ppg, 7.8 rpg, .431 shooter, and his BEST season (in a year in which he played WITH Wilt BTW) was 15.0 ppg, 10 rpg, and .433. Not only that, but he was no more than average in his limited post-season career, and was absolutely AWFUL in his three years with Chamberlain. Once again, I would aargue that Happy Hairston contributed more to his team's than Gola did to his.

BTW, the great Gola shot a CAREER .336 in his FIVE post-seasons. And, yes, he is somehow in the HOF.