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[QUOTE=DMAVS41]reading comprehension. defensively mate. where was duncan defensively. diop at times played good defense, but Duncan went off in game 7 just like Dirk did. didn't duncan have like 40/15/10 or something? Its hard to credit defense with a line like that.[/QUOTE]
As was said. He was playing with a bad foot
[QUOTE=SCdac]Well, he didn't guard Dirk that much... and Dirk didn't guard Duncan that much... by design of both coaches, undoubtedly.
But are you seriously acting like Duncan didn't put his mark on the series defensively... because they didn't win? or Because Dirk played great? :facepalm
You're more obtuse than I thought.
Duncan averaged over 2.5 blocks in that series and was basically playing center because the Spurs unexpectedly, and controversially amongst SA fans, went small in that series. His "lack of defense" is hardly the reason the Spurs lost.
This is like asking, why didn't Dirk's all-time great offense get the Mavs out of the first round or second round in... 01, 02, 04, 05, 07, 08, 09, and 2010?
Where was Dirk offensively in those seasons?[/QUOTE]
What?
I brought that up because Dirk and the Mavs went off in a lot of those games.
The spurs gave up 88.8 ppg that season. The Mavs averaged around 104 ppg in that series. Around 115 per win. Duncan, who happens to play the same position as Dirk, did almost nothing to stop Dirk the last 4 games.
Calm down. This isn't a Dirk vs Duncan argument. Duncan actually played better than Dirk in that series. That is not what this is about. Its an offense vs defense argument. We can both agree that Duncan is one of the best defenders of all time. We can both agree that the 06 Spurs were a great defense. And the Spurs had Bowen as well.
Of course Duncan made an impact defensively on that series. But think about what that series would have been like if Duncan was mainly just a great defender and not also a great offensive player. Its not even close....probably a sweep.
Just another example of offense being more important.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Duncan, who happens to play the same position as Dirk, did almost nothing to stop Dirk the last 4 games.[/QUOTE]
They weren't even guarding each other :confusedshrug: ... It's hard to understand what you're trying to say when it seems you didn't even watch the games... (it's highly suspect if you even watched that series, or are just going off stats)
and you didn't answer the question...
Where was Dirk's offense in all those first and second round exits? Why did they never advance with his all-time great offense? why their offensive number drop in some post seasons?
[QUOTE=97 bulls]As was said. He was playing with a bad foot[/QUOTE]
:facepalm
here is what it boils down to...a list of mainly offensive players vs players that play great defense and also play solid offense:
nash vs payton? debatable
dirk vs howard? debatable
barkley vs kg? debatable
shaq vs duncan? debatable
magic vs pippen? magic
bird vs pippen? bird
dirk vs mourning? dirk
barkley vs robinson? debatable
magic vs hakeem? magic
these are some of the best defensive players ever vs some of the best offensive players ever. furthermore, a lot of these defensive players were also great offensively.
other than Bill Russell, there isn't one instance in which the defensive player clearly beats the offensive guy. And again, almost every single one of those defensive guys was also very good to great offensively. If defense was more important, the defensive guys should be winning this comparisons easily.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What?
I brought that up because Dirk and the Mavs went off in a lot of those games.
The spurs gave up 88.8 ppg that season. The Mavs averaged around 104 ppg in that series. Around 115 per win. Duncan, who happens to play the same position as Dirk, did almost nothing to stop Dirk the last 4 games.
Calm down. This isn't a Dirk vs Duncan argument. Duncan actually played better than Dirk in that series. That is not what this is about. Its an offense vs defense argument. We can both agree that Duncan is one of the best defenders of all time. We can both agree that the 06 Spurs were a great defense. And the Spurs had Bowen as well.
Of course Duncan made an impact defensively on that series. But think about what that series would have been like if Duncan was mainly just a great defender and not also a great offensive player. Its not even close....probably a sweep.
Just another example of offense being more important.[/QUOTE]
Duncan avg 32 ppg and the spurs still lost. Maybe if hee hadn't been playing on a bad wheel, his defense would've been better and the spurs win.
Neither is more important than the other. But if I had to choose, I go 55% defense and 4t% offense
[QUOTE=SCdac]They weren't even guarding each other :confusedshrug: ... It's hard to understand what you're trying to say when it seems you didn't even watch the games... (it's highly suspect if you even watched that series, or are just going off stats)
and you didn't answer the question...
Where was Dirk's offense in all those first and second round exits? Why did they never advance with his all-time great offense? why their offensive number drop in some post seasons?[/QUOTE]
You are just being an idiot now. They didn't guard each other a lot...helps my point. Same with KG vs Dirk in 02....what good is that defense if the player that plays your freaking position tears your team up. That is also why I included the team stats as well....in which the Mavs shredded the Spurs defense to a tune of 15 or so more ppg than they normally gave up.
Where was Dirk's offense? It was there throughout his entire career in the playoffs aside from a couple series. What relevance does that have? I'm not blaming Duncan for that series loss. You get so sensitive...LOL. I'm saying that we can all agree that Duncan is one of the best defenders ever. We can agree the Spurs were great defensively in 06. Yet that defense didn't matter all that much in the series. And when push came to shove, the last 4 games saw Dirk go off and neither Duncan nor the Spurs could do anything to stop him. Just like KG could do nothing to stop Dirk in 02. And you'd see that individual great defense just doesn't matter as much as individual great offense in this hypothetical.
Team defense vs team offense is another story.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Where was Duncan in the 06 series?[/quote]
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Of course Duncan made an impact defensively on that series. [/QUOTE]
[quote=DMAVS41]Duncan actually played better than Dirk in that series[/quote]
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=SCdac]:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
It was "where was Duncan" defensively as I have explained. Please don't derail a decent thread because you are butthurt still about 06.
Duncan made an impact defensively, just not a huge one. The Mavs shredded the Spurs and the player that plays his position went off. Sorry...get over it.
Duncan is a far better player than Dirk and in my top 6. Enjoy your 4 rings and stop acting like a child.
Doesn't change what happened in 06. Individual offense by Dirk destroyed the individual and team defense of the Spurs.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Duncan avg 32 ppg and the spurs still lost. Maybe if hee hadn't been playing on a bad wheel, his defense would've been better and the spurs win.
Neither is more important than the other. But if I had to choose, I go 55% defense and 4t% offense[/QUOTE]
So then.
Answer Mourning vs Barkley. Barkley played no defense. None. Mourning was not only a great defender, but solid offensively.
Would you take Mourning over Barkley? And if so, is the gap big or small?
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]And when push came to shove, the last 4 games saw Dirk go off and neither Duncan nor the Spurs could do anything to [B]stop him[/B]. [/QUOTE]
Dude, "stopping" the best offensive players is not an easy task. That's basketball, is it not?
Would you say that not having a player to "stop" Dwayne Wade in 2006 ultimately cost the Mavericks a championship?
Wouldn't you say that the inability to stop players then... only emphasizes how much defense is important?
[QUOTE=SCdac]Dude, "stopping" the best offensive players is not an easy task. That's basketball, is it not?
Would you say that not having a player to "stop" Dwayne Wade in 2006 ultimately cost the Mavericks a championship?
Wouldn't you say that the inability to stop players then... only emphasizes how much defense is important?[/QUOTE]
Thats the point. You can't do it. Even some of the best defensive players ever couldn't and can't do it. And individually (which is what this is about) is almost impossible. It has to be a team thing.
That was my point with KG in 02. Great defender. But put him on a team that isn't made up of quality defenders and his impact defensively dwindles. Its almost impossible to stop a great offensive force like Dirk or Barkley one on one.
And not only that, but the offense late in games (as in this hypothetical) is of extreme importance to winning.
Team defense...I totally agree with you. Individual defense? Nah...too many situations its marginalized. Give me the offensive guy over the defensive guy 9 out of 10 times in a hypothetical like this in which the offensive guy is capable of carrying an offense throughout a game and closing other teams out.
Answer me this. Magic vs Pippen? One of the best offensive players ever that plays little to no defense.....vs arguably the best perimeter defender ever who is also very very good offensive player?
Who do you think is the better player?
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]So then.
Answer Mourning vs Barkley. Barkley played no defense. None. Mourning was not only a great defender, but solid offensively.
Would you take Mourning over Barkley? And if so, is the gap big or small?[/QUOTE]
Yep. I would've loved to see what mourning would've done with that 93 suns team.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Yep. I would've loved to see what mourning would've done with that 93 suns team.[/QUOTE]
And to what extent was Mourning a superior player to Barkley in your opinion? Is the gap small or big?
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]And to what extent was Mourning a superior player to Barkley in your opinion? Is the gap small or big?[/QUOTE]
Its definately small. It always is when you're comaring players that good
What the hell? They turned the rep system back on?