Lebron vs Hakeem.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]I meant compared to today's centers. How would he not be better statistically than, say, Dwight?

And about the rules - they implemented the defensive three-second rule in 2001. Was Shaq still not dominant? Don't tell me you think something like "zone" would prevent Hakeem, a great midrange shooter, from dominating. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

He would be more dominant than Dwight. I see him as a 25/12 player in this era, which would be exceptional for a big man.

Shaq was still dominant, but my point is, the effectiveness and focus of big men is taken away by today's game. If it were up to me, I wouldn't want it that way, but its the way it is. Hence the lack of dominant big men.

[QUOTE=plowking]Disagree. Players like Al Jeff, Dwight Howard, Zach Randolph, Aldridge, etc would be force-fed the ball back in the 80's and 90's.

People love to diminish Howard as some no skilled, muscle pumped douche, but in reality he has plenty of skills that translate well, hence why he does score at an efficient rate. He'd be a good center in any era.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Howard is more like what a modern center has to be like. To me Hakeem is the only center that could move as fast as Howard does but Hakeem would be selective as to when he would up himself to that speed. Howard is really quick if you look at him in comparison to previous centers. And I don't know who I would have as more athletic/agile/explosive than him at center either. The one exception would be another speed player that didn't have a polished game but averaged 26 a game. Duncan who is considered a defensive great, who was very fundamental, often had trouble with both Amare and DH. So I think they would score the same regardless of era.

I think the game is a little bit faster and the cave condensing on the inside game would affect centers from other era's some.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Yes, Howard is more like what a modern center has to be like. To me Hakeem is the only center that could move as fast as Howard does but Hakeem would be selective as to when he would up himself to that speed. Howard is really quick if you look at him in comparison to previous centers. And I don't know who I would have as more athletic/agile/explosive than him at center either. The one exception would be another speed player that didn't have a polished game but averaged 26 a game. Duncan who is considered a defensive great, who was very fundamental, often had trouble with both Amare and DH. So I think they would score the same regardless of era.

I think the game is a little bit faster and the cave condensing on the inside game would affect centers from other era's some.[/QUOTE]

Yeah.

Speaking of centers, I think D-Rob's game would translate best out of most of the great centers. Loved to face up, had a great first step, and was a beast when it came to running up and down the court. His game would be suited to today's style.

[QUOTE=Electric Slide]There is legitimately zero argument that rose was better than lebron in 2011.[/QUOTE]

True, although Lebron wasn't better than Dwight Howard that year.

The MVP too often goes to players with the better "story." Which Rose had. But, Lebron was dominant but probably one of less dominant years in his prime, while Dwight was at his best and his impact on the course of the game defensively, paired with an improved productiveness offensively, made him the best player of the league that year.

So yea, I agree Lebron was better than Rose (IMO) in 2011 (certainly debatable, I mean Rose DID have a terrific year, and was largely un-guardable one on one). But, Dwight was even better than Bron that year.

[QUOTE=ripthekik]Youngest team in the league? What was their average age.. 23?
I havent checked this stat.. but seems like they're the youngest team ever in the finals..

So congrats Heat, you beat the youngest team ever in the finals. :applause:[/QUOTE]
the team that demolished the lakers

[QUOTE=plowking]Yeah.

Speaking of centers, I think D-Rob's game would translate best out of most of the great centers. Loved to face up, had a great first step, and was a beast when it came to running up and down the court. His game would be suited to today's style.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, imagine him with John Wall.

[QUOTE=chazzy]You guys are being way to quick to dismiss Hakeem's title runs. Look at his team in 94 and look at his numbers in 95[/QUOTE]

This.

And honestly, regular season numbers don't mean all that much with the greats like this. Compare the playoff stats...you want to know what these guys do when it matters most.

Lebron

29/9/7 on 47/31/75

Hakeem

26/11/3 on 53/22/71

Now, those are a little misleading considering Hakeem played 3 years in the playoffs outside of his prime. And Hakeem's title run in 95 was amazing. 33/10/5...


I think Lebron does pass him if he wins the title and finals mvp this year. But if he doesn't, I'd still rank Hakeem higher. It's already getting pretty close though.

Just depends on if you mean basketball or resume. Lebron has a better resume already than most legends. Hes gonna blow Hakeems away.

Id still rather have Hakeem on my team. All the rest is pretty whatever to me in situations like this where I have seen the entire career of both sides. Im not guessing like I am with some older players.

I know what Hakeem could do...and Lebron. Not taking Lebron. Its not like....5 levels apart. But its not something id have to look at the team first either.

Id take Hakeem every time. Too disruptive on defense with the right mix of skill and aggression on offense.

If Lebron more often played the way hes capable of id take him. Id take out to prove a point Lebron over Hakeem. I wouldnt take average Lebron though.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Steve Nash has more MVPs than Isiah Thomas. That doesn't make him better. Heck Derrick Rose has more MVPs than Isiah. The MVP is not a great tool to rate players against each other for several reasons. For one, the voting rules have changed. The players themselves used to vote. Now the media does. Also the definition of what truly is the MVP has never been defined.

Michael Jordan should probably have 10 MVPs, but instead he only has 5. The voters change their opinions from year to year on who should get the award. Sometimes they like to crown a past champion, and sometimes they get fatigue and want to give it to a new guy.


On top of that, the competition is different from era to era. Dirk has an MVP, but he never competed with Magic, Bird, nor Michael to get it. It's just an awful awful awful way to try to judge players from different eras.[/QUOTE]
Great post

MJ battled all time greats in their prime for MVP the likes of Magic, Bird, Barkley, Malone, DRobinson, Hakeem, Shaq etc.

Let's be real, LBJ competition for MVPs are nowhere near that level considering that most of them are either old or injured. Who's his biggest comp? KD? Fair enough but he's still only 23? Who's next? Melo? Paul? lol

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Just depends on if you mean basketball or resume. Lebron has a better resume already than most legends. Hes gonna blow Hakeems away.

Id still rather have Hakeem on my team. All the rest is pretty whatever to me in situations like this where I have seen the entire career of both sides. Im not guessing like I am with some older players.

I know what Hakeem could do...and Lebron. Not taking Lebron. Its not like....5 levels apart. But its not something id have to look at the team first either.

Id take Hakeem every time. Too disruptive on defense with the right mix of skill and aggression on offense.

If Lebron more often played the way hes capable of id take him. Id take out to prove a point Lebron over Hakeem. I wouldnt take average Lebron though.[/QUOTE]

Meh...you over-rate Hakeem's impact. Not by a lot, but enough if you would take Hakeem in every situation.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Just depends on if you mean basketball or resume. Lebron has a better resume already than most legends. Hes gonna blow Hakeems away.
[/QUOTE]
How is his resume better? He has 1 ring on a stacked team in a weak era. Hakeem has 2 on a weak team in a strong era.

I agree with the rest of your post though.

[QUOTE=TheMan]
[B]MJ battled all time greats in their prime for MVP the likes of Magic, Bird, Barkley, Malone, DRobinson, Hakeem, Shaq etc.

Let's be real, LBJ competition for MVPs are nowhere near that level considering that most of them are either old or injured. Who's his biggest comp? KD? Fair enough but he's still only 23? Who's next? Melo? Paul? lol[/B][/QUOTE]
:applause:
excellent post.

Every realistic situation. If you are gonna say who would I take if a team already had Shaq and Zo....thats one thing. But any reasonable....likely...situation?

No question who.

And its not as simple as impact. Hakeem might well not make say...the 09 Cavs win 66 games.

Im picking him because of what he allows me to do team building wise and us being in a league I can find a 20ppg swingman just laying outside some GMs window looking for a meal but I cant find a spare bigman I can depend on to save my life.

The only centers id call franchise players even potentially....Bynum and Dwight? One is a giant child...well...both are giant children...and one of them is a hurt one who gets sued by neighbors for too much weed smoke in the backyard.

Hakeem wasnt perfect...he got in fights and so on. He supposedly slapped a teammate or two...

But give me the shot to build a team around Hakeem where hes only gonna play a center likely to score 20 like...6 times a season...where the highest scoring 4/5 in the league does like 20 a game(Aldridge)?

He would have so much defensive freedom he wouldnt know what to do with it. Hes barely breaking a sweat defending his man. There is nobody left who makes you work on the boards and man to man(closest being Dwight or Bynum if he returns). Hakeem would have so much less to do in this league I cant imagine he doesnt find a way to excel even more at whats left.

I watched Dwight average like 27 a game for a stretch just off being fed the ball and not automatically kicking it back out. Hakeem isnt getting slowed by rule changes and he would have freedom on defense I feel a need to see.

Dwight was too effective on Orlando for me to believe Hakeem isnt gonna be better. And Dwight at his peak(2011) wasnt more than a step behind Lebron anyway.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Every realistic situation. If you are gonna say who would I take if a team already had Shaq and Zo....thats one thing. But any reasonable....likely...situation?

No question who.

And its not as simple as impact. Hakeem might well not make say...the 09 Cavs win 66 games.

Im picking him because of what he allows me to do team building wise and us being in a league I can find a 20ppg swingman just laying outside some GMs window looking for a meal but I cant find a spare bigman I can depend on to save my life.

The only centers id call franchise players even potentially....Bynum and Dwight? One is a giant child...well...both are giant children...and one of them is a hurt one who gets sued by neighbors for too much weed smoke in the backyard.

Hakeem wasnt perfect...he got in fights and so on. He supposedly slapped a teammate or two...

But give me the shot to build a team around Hakeem where hes only gonna play a center likely to score 20 like...6 times a season...where the highest scoring 4/5 in the league does like 20 a game(Aldridge)?

He would have so much defensive freedom he wouldnt know what to do with it. Hes barely breaking a sweat defending his man. There is nobody left who makes you work on the boards and man to man(closest being Dwight or Bynum if he returns). Hakeem would have so much less to do in this league I cant imagine he doesnt find a way to excel even more at whats left.

I watched Dwight average like 27 a game for a stretch just off being fed the ball and not automatically kicking it back out. Hakeem isnt getting slowed by rule changes and he would have freedom on defense I feel a need to see.

Dwight was too effective on Orlando for me to believe Hakeem isnt gonna be better. And Dwight at his peak(2011) wasnt more than a step behind Lebron anyway.[/QUOTE]

Then maybe you don't over-rate Hakeem. Seem to under-rate Lebron then...at least last years Lebron and this year so far.

I'm not sure there has been a team in the league since 09 that Lebron wouldn't lead to 50 regular season wins.

I'm just curious. Would you also take Hakeem over Bird and Magic and Kobe everytime as well?

[quote=DMAVS41]Then maybe you don't over-rate Hakeem. Seem to under-rate Lebron then...at least last years Lebron and this year so far.

I'm not sure there has been a team in the league since 09 that Lebron wouldn't lead to 50 regular season wins.

I'm just curious. Would you also take Hakeem over Bird and Magic and Kobe everytime as well?[/quote]

No. Many times though. Im talking for today. His advantage over his peers would be much greater than theirs for the most part.

Kobe id take him over every time as well though. I suspect that leads into a "Why Magic/Bird at times and not Kobe/Lebron" thing that would make it seem like an old school/new school issue but it isnt. Hakeem is from the same era they are in a way. Shit if Magic went to 4 years of college he would have come in in what....81 or so?

I dont think Hakeem is flat better than all of them. But I think he would need to do the least to stand out these days.

Lebron has reached a level of dominance where it's certainly debatable, but I'd still go with Dream and if Lebron never gets better than he is now, he'll remain behind Dream who was obviously on a completely different level defensively.

Amazing player to watch offensively as well. Could hit baseline fadeaways away from the double all day, but sometimes he'd do a quick spin as soon as he got the entry pass, and defenders were fooled by that constantly because he'd also sometimes shoot the fadeaway immediately after receiving the pass. Or he'd go to a little step through and jump hook in the lane, and sometimes he'd spin and end up getting swarmed, but find a wide open 3 point shooter.