Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

[QUOTE=dankok8]In 88-89, Bird's back gives out and he's never the same player again.[/QUOTE]

It was not a back injury that caused Bird to miss this season

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]Bird's 81 finals were not horrid. His points, rebounds and assists averages are unequaled in the Finals to this day.
[/quote]
15/15/7 huh??? Its late but I know that's wrong? Wilt 18/28/8? Jordan 41/8/6 Duncan 24/17/5 Shaq 33/16/5 Magic 26/8/13 Lebron 28/10/7 and I know they all had much better shooting percentages. Are you saying with a bare minimum of 7 assist?

It was definitely a major let down in the finals to have Cedric Maxwell be the man. I just don't see Cedric Maxwell winning it that in any other year. He sucked.

[QUOTE=dankok8]Come on man it's not like Bird was often going all out trying to score either. Heck he was playing the 85-86 season shooting jumpers left-handed and stuff just because he wanted a challenge. Magic could have averaged 22-24 ppg consistently but Bird could have eclipsed 30+ ppg quite easily.



How terribly useless is this post. You mean to tell me the Lakers didn't get any worse when a 42 year old Kareem retired? Yea man peak Magic was way better than 40+ year old Kareem. Fascinating... tell me more! :hammerhead:

Again Game 6 in 1980... WAS ONE GAME!! You won't find anyone who knows a god damn thing about the NBA in that season saying rookie Magic was as good as Kareem.




Finally a voice of reason!

Dude I'm a big-time Magic fan and I have to defend Bird (and Kareem) in this thread. This is how ridiculous this is. He is calling Bird a choker! Larry freaking Bird... And he's trying to discredit Kareem by saying that at 41 and 42 years old in his last 2 seasons he wasn't that good. SMH[/QUOTE]

WE already KNOW that Magic was capable of scoring FAR more. 22-24 is absolutely pure S**t. He was handing out 12-13 apg and scoring 24 ppg for cryingoutloud (and had a Finals of 26 ppg on .541 FG% and .960 FT% while handing out 13 assists per game.) 30 ppg would have been a reasonable estimation had Magic shot-jacked as much as Bird did in his career.

And, by 1982, MAGIC was EASILY considered better than Kareem. In fact, in a span of six games, went 6-0 without Kareem, and when he returned to the starting lineup, they lost by 20 points. There was a question, THEN, about just how needed KAJ was.

[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1125158/index.htm[/url]

And Magic was FAR better in that post-season (and much better than your boy Bird, BTW, too), and easily won FMVP #2. And let's get real here about '82. The ONLY reason that Magic didn't get much pub in the MVP race, was because HE was blamed for the firing of Westhead. He was an eyelash away from a TRIPLE-DOUBLE season AND post-season...all while SHARING the PG position.

After KAJ's 80-81 season, it was ALL Magic. And again, anyone that actually followed basketball back then, would tell you that KAJ was NEVER a leader. He was a loner who offended his own teammates. His ONE title before Magic came at his absolute peak, and with OSCAR running the show. After Oscar retired, he was putting up useless and often under-achieving stats. He was CAPABLE of so much more, but he lacked motivation and drive. He couldn't carry LOADED rosters past far inferior rosters (and yet Rick Barry could.)


And please, get off of this "I am a Magic fan" crap. As well as defending KAJ. I have ripped your completely exaggerated takes on KAJ and Wilt to SHREDS here. A PEAK KAJ was never remotely as dominant as a prime Chamberlain. And please, give me the FACTS that prove that KAJ was at his PEAK in '76-77. Not one poster has come up with the reasons why a 70-72 KAJ could score more, shoot better against league average, rebound better (and before you use 76-77, give me the list of rebounders in the league...they were awful.) A young KAJ played much better defense, was far more UNSTOPPABLE, anchored the best defensive team in the league, was a better passer, more efficient, and was a much bigger WINNER. The rest of his career was slow decline.


BTW, here were the "clutch" Bird's averages in his five Finals:

23.1 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 6.0 apg, .457 FG%, .431 3pt%, .887 FT%, .473 eFG%, and a .534 TS%.

And keep in mind that the post-season league eFG% average was .490 in that span.

In his 31 Finals games, he had as many games in which he shot under .399 (including two in which he shot under .299...and a game seven of .333), ELEVEN, as he did in which he shot over .500.

And again, his teammates were collectively shooting better than he was.

Larry the Legend.

[QUOTE]How terribly useless is this post. You mean to tell me the Lakers didn't get any worse when a 42 year old Kareem retired? Yea man peak Magic was way better than 40+ year old Kareem. Fascinating... tell me more[/QUOTE]

Magic's W-L record, withOUT Kareem, and during their 10 years in the league together, was 25-8 (.758), while KAJ's was 61-43 (.587) without Magic in that span. And again, that 25-8 record came in varying stages of their 10 seasons together, including a 6-0 mark in '82.

THEN, after KAJ retired, did Magic's Lakers suddenly collapse. Hell no, they IMPROVED. His two teams immediately after Kareem retired, went 63-19 and 58-24.

So, collectively, Magic went 25-8, 63-19, and 58-24 withOUT Kareem...or a 146-51 W-L record (.741.)

As the above clearly shows, Magic certainly didn't need Kareem nearly as much as KAJ needed Magic. No question about it, Magic had a far greater impact on the 80's Lakers than KAJ did.

[B]And this dude goes on with ludicrous posts. Ban pls.[/B]

[QUOTE=dankok8]

Dude I'm a big-time Magic fan and I have to defend Bird (and Kareem) in this thread. This is how ridiculous this is. He is calling Bird a choker! Larry freaking Bird... And he's trying to discredit Kareem by saying that at 41 and 42 years old in his last 2 seasons he wasn't that good. SMH[/QUOTE]

Totally agree, it's laughable really. Classic case of insecurity. He's convinced if he screams long and loud enough, and at the same time talks smack about the opposition, that people will find his opinion more credible. But they won't of course. Bird was the best of the two until 86-87, and no revisionist history can ever change that. I still have Magic slightly ahead of Bird alltime, but it's close.

[QUOTE=dankok8]Come on man it's not like Bird was often going all out trying to score either. Heck he was playing the 85-86 season shooting jumpers left-handed and stuff just because he wanted a challenge. Magic could have averaged 22-24 ppg consistently but Bird could have eclipsed 30+ ppg [/QUOTE]
Huh, Bird was the feature while Magic featured others. Magic from year one was capable of playing all positions, fill in for Kareem and get 42/15/7 to close out the championship against a great defensive team. He featured Kareem in the half court and Coop/Worthy/Green/Scott on the break which were easy baskets that would have put even more distance on his his stellar FG%. They ran at least 15 times a game on (Magics steals and rebounds were close to double digits alone). Magic was a mismatch for any defender in the half court.

Bird shot on average six or seven shots more per game than Magic post seasn and RS. Yet Bird in your clutch shooting examples is only one made basket above Magic. And when Magic is hot he's still a distributor and would have definitely scored more if he wasn't trying to keep everybody happy. Gives Magic six more shots per game and there is no discussion here.

The stats prove that bird is better

[QUOTE=dankok8]

[B]PLEASE LAZERUSS POST SOME SI LINKS THAT PROVE BIRD > MAGIC BEFORE 86-87![/B] I'm willing to take a softer stance in the face of proof but everything I know about the era points in the other direction.
[/QUOTE]

@ dankok8
I think you meant, links that prove Magic> Bird before '87?

Anyways...

I have no personal agenda here as a lifelong Magic fan who feels that his overall ranking is higher than Bird's, but I would like to see a response to your request in bold. Not particularly from Laz, but anyone. In my [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241244"]80's Bird GOAT conversation thread,[/URL], there were several declarations between '84 and '88 that Bird may have been the GOAT. Admittedly I haven't look as diligently, but I haven't found the same reports for Magic prior to 1987.

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]And this dude goes on with ludicrous posts. Ban pls.[/B][/QUOTE]
I remember when jlauber used to post cool and interesting facts from the past, sadly this is what he has become.

[QUOTE=havoc33]Bird was the best of the two until 86-87, and no revisionist history can ever change that. I still have Magic slightly ahead of Bird alltime, but it's close.[/QUOTE]
Best example I can give you.

Say Derrick Rose comes into the league and in his first year has the best finals game since MJ to close out the Lakers. Durant wins the next year chip but Ibaka not Westbrook, wins finals MVP. The next year Rose wins his second Fmvp. Durant would be in the same boat he is in as he is now with Lebron. This scenario covers the first four years with Bird/Magic.

The next year Rose makes it to the finals - got swept tho but not by the team that swept Durants team in the first round. More props to Ros

[QUOTE=CelticBaller]The stats prove that bird is better[/QUOTE]
They most certainly do not.

Oh and, 1979-1983 Magic > 1989-1983 Bird especially when you factor postseason play

[QUOTE=ThePhantomCreep]They most certainly do not.

Oh and, 1979-1983 Magic > 1989-1982 Bird especially when you factor postseason play[/QUOTE]

[B]2 posts, basically registered to say this :lol clear alt :roll:

Gonna make me another account to say Bird > Magic :rolleyes: [/B]

[QUOTE=jlip]@ dankok8
I think you meant, links that prove Magic> Bird before '87?

Anyways...

I have no personal agenda here as a lifelong Magic fan who feels that his overall ranking is higher than Bird's, but I would like to see a response to your request in bold. Not particularly from Laz, but anyone. In my [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241244"]80's Bird GOAT conversation thread,[/URL], there were several declarations between '84 and '88 that Bird may have been the GOAT. Admittedly I haven't look as diligently, but I haven't found the same reports for Magic prior to 1987.[/QUOTE]

[B]They/he's hiding now, making alt's too :oldlol: [/B]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]15/15/7 huh??? Its late but I know that's wrong? Wilt 18/28/8? Jordan 41/8/6 Duncan 24/17/5 Shaq 33/16/5 Magic 26/8/13 Lebron 28/10/7 and I know they all had much better shooting percentages. Are you saying with a bare minimum of 7 assist?

It was definitely a major let down in the finals to have Cedric Maxwell be the man. I just don't see Cedric Maxwell winning it that in any other year. He sucked.[/QUOTE]

I was imprecise. The following is Unequaled since 1981.
In an NBA Finals, averaging
15 or more points,
15 or more rebounds
7 or more assists

I've posted elsewhere on this board about this, but his coach was surprised Maxwell won it, he expected it to be Bird especially as he was clearly the best player in the closeout game. Maxwell didn't have 6 good games either. He also had a couple of off nights. So he ended up average about 17 ppg for the series not a giant advance over Bird's 15ppg. Field goal percentage was the only place Maxwell was clearly better than Bird that series. In my mind that's just not enough difference to be ahead of Bird's other stats. Bird also had 2.3 steals a game that series. He shot poorly, but his all around play was pretty darn high.

Here are the players who averaged more than 15 rebounds in the NBA finals series since 1981.

Moses Malone 16.3 1981
Larry Bird 15.3 1981
Moses Malone 18.3 1983
Shaq 16.3 2000
Shaq 15.8 2001
Duncan 17.0 2003

It's only happened 5 times in 32 years. It's a rare thing. Of course, of those guys Bird is the only lead both teams in assists.

Where do you get this idea that Maxwell sucked? Between 79 and 81 in both field goal percentage and offensive rating he was

1
1
3

In win shares those years, he was
5
3
7

He was a very good offensive rebounder, great around the basket and had some clutch moments. Definitely the kind of guy any team could use.