Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen's as a leader

I'll be honest Pippen while a very good all-around player I don't think is like one of the greatest leaders in pro sports of some sh*t like this thread makes it out be.

Jordan was always by a large margin the best player on the Bulls and the Bulls certainly fed off his confidence.

In 94 Pip's refusal to go into game 3 and force the Bulls to waste an extra time out so he could yell at Phil Jackson and then not even be on the floor to be a decoy with the season one the line is one of the most profoundly selfish moments in a basketball game that I can remember.

That image of Bill Cartwright on the bench yelling at the top of his lungs at Pippen to get off the bench who's staring off into space game isn't an easy one to forget.

In Houston he bickered with Barkley and he wasn't able to get tailor his game to Hakeem Olajuwon, let alone lead them anywhere (aside from a first round exit). For a guy who could "do anything and fit into any situation", that sure wasn't evident this season.

He did OK in Blazer land, but you never really got the sense that was a great "team", just a bunch of talented players with no sure go-to guy. Sure enough they melted down in game 7 2000 and had no real "go to" leader to stand up and stem the tide.

Scottie was a great no.2 option and an OK no.1 guy. He brought a lot of intangibles to the table and was a nice guy to teammates, playing the role of good cop, to Jordan's bad cop. Tremendous defender. It was a very effective combination.

Once you're getting into "he was better than Bird/Magic" territory and one of the greatest leaders to play etc. etc. etc., then you've gone full retard.

Are we really still talking about this D-bag?

In addition to quitting on his team and not regretting it, here's another beaut where he ripped into one ex-teammate (Barkley) and threw another under the bus (Jordan) in one fell swoop. Yeah, some leader.

[url]http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=8-ugxfIYANA[/url]





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[QUOTE=Soundwave]I'll be honest Pippen while a very good all-around player I don't think is like one of the greatest leaders in pro sports of some sh*t like this thread makes it out be.

Second Scottie never really exhibited incredible leadership in away from Jordan.
[/QUOTE]

That is refuted by his coaches, numerous teammates, both in Chicago and Portland and journalists close to the situation, i.e. Charley Rosen and Sam Smith. Yet we have Jordan stans saying he sucked as a leader--just because that is what they want to believe.

Hey DatAsh, Pippen continues to get ripped by MJ stans. Where are you to lecture them?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]It is hilarious how MJ stans repeatedly opine (negatively) on Pippen's leadership yet when someone puts forward hard evidence in favor of Pippen in this regard--after years of attacks from MJ stans--they throw a collective temper tantrum and call it unjust, trolling. They want to police people's thoughts and shut down any views that don't align with the mythology they promote.

Note that no one disputed what Jackson said in the OP. The closest you had was one guy arguing MJ had superior impact as a leader. No one is disputing that Pippen was indeed a team leader--even if they are irate at that fact. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Nobody is saying that Pip wasn't 'a' leader.

But you make it appear as tho he was THE leader.

If you didn't try to so hard to shove your agenda into people's mouths, maybe it would appear as just that: Pip was 'a' leader.

You post so much shit that any legit message gets lost and you end up looking like a a delusional Pip stan/Mj hater. As tho you resented MJ and are mad that Pip is remembered as a 'sidekick' (which is exactly what he was).

YOU cause Pip to get overrated.
YOU cause people to troll.

We all accept and respect Pip for what he did. Everybody agrees that he's a great player and one of the best sidekicks/all around players ever. But you go the full retard route repeatedly.

Yeah he's been praised at being 'a' leader.

But so has MJ.

point being? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]That is refuted by his coaches, numerous teammates, both in Chicago and Portland and journalists close to the situation, i.e. Charley Rosen and Sam Smith. Yet we have Jordan stans saying he sucked as a leader--just because that is what they want to believe.

Hey DatAsh, Pippen continues to get ripped by MJ stans. Where are you to lecture them?[/QUOTE]

Based on what I saw with my own two eyes, I was not that impressed with his ability to lead in Houston or Portland.

I mean the Blazers were a good team, but they always came off like a five headed hydra monster to me, no real leader, just a bunch of good players kinda all doing their own thing. It's actually kind of predictable they would melt down the way they did. You need to have a singular guy in a situation like that who will stand up and rally his team, not just with words, but with a key basket to stem the tide.

Scottie couldn't do that for the Blazers.

Don't get it twisted either, I give Pip full marks for being a great no.2 option on the Bulls and having a very good season in 94 (minus that egregious moment of selfishness).

But one of the greatest leaders to ever play? Nah man. I don't see it. If he was, the Blazers would be champs in 2000 and the Rockets should've at least tasted the WCF.

Refusing to go into a game because the play isn't drawn up for you is about the lowest thing you can do as a basketball "star" too. It doesn't get much lower than that.

It's not easy being the number 1 guy, in less than a year of it, Pippen cracked under the pressure of it, it's not really the role he was cut out to be put in.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]Based on what I saw with my own two eyes, I was not that impressed with his ability to lead in Houston or Portland.

I mean the Blazers were a good team, but they always came off like a five headed hydra monster to me, no real leader, just a bunch of good players kinda all doing their own thing. It's actually kind of predictable they would melt down the way they did. You need to have a singular guy in a situation like that who will stand up and rally his team, not just with words, but with a key basket to stem the tide.

Scottie couldn't do that for the Blazers.

Don't get it twisted either, I give Pip full marks for being a great no.2 option on the Bulls and having a very good season in 94 (minus that egregious moment of selfishness).

But one of the greatest leaders to ever play? Nah man. I don't see it. If he was, the Blazers would be champs in 2000 and the Rockets should've at least tasted the WCF.[/QUOTE]

Part of a leadership role is to keep shit together and from keeping a bad situation from happening. Anybody can be a leader when things are all right. A TRUE leader steps in when shit goes south. A TRUE leader prevents shit from getting to that point.

The Blazers had great talent.

But lacked leadership to corral them.

The Rockets didn't have an identity. That's due to poor leadership.

What happened with the Bulls in the mythical 94 season is, MJ had set the table. All Pip had to do was follow it and keep things steady. But we all know what happened when shit got real.

[QUOTE]Based on what I saw with my own two eyes, I was not that impressed with his ability to lead in Houston or Portland. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, but you weren't in the huddle. You weren't in the locker room. You weren't at the practices. You simply don't want to believe he was and are reaching a conclusion based on faith. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. To me there simply is too much evidence in the other direction to reach any conclusion but that Pippen was a great team leader.

What happens internally is often not known. Mitt Romney, for example, was completely different privately than he was perceived publicly. That didn't come out until after the election, though.

The purpose of this thread, though, was to directly refute the NUMEROUS statements made attacking Pippen's leadership by MJ stans over the years. What this thread does--and what the teammates thread also will do--is present evidence from people who would know what really happened on those teams. It is then up to people to reach their conclusions based on the evidence. They are perfectly free to reject it. What is pathetic, though, is MJ stans' attempts to chill debate by throwing a collective temper tantrum everyone time they hear something that does not fit with the dictates of the Church of Jordan. The usual MJ stans were in this thread and you even had hypocritical temper tantrums from 2 others who strangely view anything in favor of Pippen as an attack on Jordan--and an attack on Jordan is a heinous deed indeed. Meanwhile Pippen gets ripped for 10 pages by 6-7 posters and those individuals don't say a word. :oldlol:

Jordan mythology does not have the same chokehold it did a few years ago. I am glad to see that and hope the nuanced reality that was the 90's Bulls continues to break free from the cloak of mythology.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yeah, but you weren't in the huddle. You weren't in the locker room. You weren't at the practices. You simply don't want to believe he was and are reaching a conclusion based on faith. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. To me there simply is too much evidence in the other direction to reach any conclusion but that Pippen was a great team leader.

What happens internally is often not known. Mitt Romney, for example, was completely different privately than he was perceived publicly. That didn't come out until after the election, though.

The purpose of this thread, though, was to directly refute the NUMEROUS statements made attacking Pippen's leadership by MJ stans over the years. What this thread does--and what the teammates thread also will do--is present evidence from people who would know what really happened on those teams. It is then up to people to reach their conclusions based on the evidence. They are perfectly free to reject it. What is pathetic, though, is MJ stans' attempts to chill debate by throwing a collective temper tantrum everyone time they hear something that does not fit with the dictates of the Church of Jordan. The usual MJ stans were in this thread and you even had hypocritical temper tantrums from 2 others who strangely view anything in favor of Pippen as an attack on Jordan--and an attack on Jordan is a heinous deed indeed. Meanwhile Pippen gets ripped for 10 pages by 6-7 posters and those individuals don't say a word. :oldlol:

Jordan mythology does not have the same chokehold it did a few years ago. I am glad to see that and hope the nuanced reality that was the 90's Bulls continues to break free from the cloak of mythology.[/QUOTE]

I'm just going on Pippen's own record ...

He wasn't a great leader in Houston or Portland. He bickered with teammates in Houston, unable to find a proper role (despite being hailed as a player that would sacrifice anything for the team ... so which is it? You can't have it both ways) and couldn't lead Portland when they needed leadership the most.

Someone needed to step up in that game 7 when season was collapsing around them, and no one did.

Refusing to go into a game with the season on the line because the play isn't called for you is a huge black mark. I can't even think of too many players who cracked so visibly under stress than that.

He's a great player, but even removing Jordan entirely from the equation, I don't think he's a "great leader" per se. Good leader who was most comfortable being an auxiliary to Jordan, sure. But guys like Magic and Russell are great leaders. You're not going to choose a Scottie Pippen led team over a Jordan or Magic or Bird led team if your life depended on it.

I don't think he was THE leader of the Bulls (that was Jordan). Nor do I think he's one of the all-time great leaders in basketball history (too many examples of when he wasn't). He was a terrific player though.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/dhJyzYb.gif[/IMG]

TLDR Jordan GOAT

Hey roundball lecock why don't you stop using Pippen and start making arguments against Jordan's actual game and failures. :oldlol:

Round ball think s he proved something.:roll: Mj is still the Goat no matter how much you try to downplay make up stats.

Look you are entitled to your view. Even though I rarely agree with you on anything relating to the 90's Bulls you always put forward legitimate, thoughtful points. You are a serious poster, unlike some.

I am interested to see your reaction when I post the quotes from his teammates and some others and see if that changes your view on this. I limited it to Jackson because he had so many quotes and because Jackson is the leading authority on this matter for his Chicago days.

The one thing I will say is you are conflating being the best player and some other things that are not the type of leadership we are talking about. We are talking about leadership in the sense of getting others in the group to do things, improving their performance and morale, etc. You are thinking a lot about leadership in the sense of productivity. Game 7 is a perfect example. For all we know he could have given the basketball equivalent of the Gettysburg address in the huddle--and it didn't work. What you are looking at is his productivity (or lack thereof in that case).

What is overlooked, and probably because it is the kind of little detail that is not remembered, is he dislocated his finger in the middle of Game 5. It was a fluke thing like going for a rebound and hitting Sabonis. He was shooting 47% in the series up to that point; he shot in the low 30's in Games 6, 7 and the rest of Game 5. What you seem to be requiring of him is actually what he did in Game 5. He came out guns blazing and had 22/6/3/6/4 to stave off elimination. He lacked the ability, due to his injury, to perform that way in the remaining games. He did show the instinct, though, previous to that injury. Read any press account of Game 5 of the WCF. He did the same thing as a player at various other points in the playoffs, i.e. the Jazz series and the Minnesota series. It was Pippen who hit the game winner to eliminate Utah.

My last paragraph is about the basketball productivity question. As far as being a team leader, he was widely acknowledged as Portland's leader during those years. This was acknowledged by players, coaches and the press. The Portland newspaper referred to him as the leader when he got in the HOF.

[QUOTE=Los Angeles Times]Mike Dunleavy may officially be the Portland Trail Blazers' coach but [B]their coach on the floor is do-it-all veteran Scottie Pippen.[/B][/QUOTE]

[url]http://articles.latimes.com/2000/may/23/sports/sp-33158[/url]

[QUOTE=The Oregonian]In his first season in Portland, [B]Pippen led the Blazers to a 59-23 record and into the Western Conference Finals[/B], where they had a 15-point fourth quarter lead in Game 7 but lost to the Lakers, who went on to win the first of their three consecutive titles. The Blazers haven't made it past the first round since then.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://blog.oregonlive.com/nba/2010/08/nba_high-5_45.html[/url]

[QUOTE=The Oregonian (in an article naming Pippen the #18 all-time Blazer)]
[B]
Worth went beyond box score[/B]

Although his statistics in Portland were modest, [B]there wasn't a player or coach on his Blazers teams that questioned the value of Scottie Pippen.[/B]

Playing in the twilight of his career, [B]Pippen was the most valuable piece of his Blazers teams because of his well-rounded play and the tone he set in the locker room and on the practice court.[/B]

"As a coach, you loved him," said[B] Mike Dunleavy, Portland's coach at the time. "He was the glue. The pro. And he was the guy who made the pass that led to the assist, the guy that made the deflection that led to the steal, and the guy who made the rebound that led to the fast break."[/B]

Playing both small forward and point guard, [B]Pippen could direct the offense and would always spearhead the defense.[/B]

"The thing about Pippen is, everybody knew he was good, but you didn't know how good until you were around him every day," said Maurice Cheeks, who coached Pippen in his final two seasons in Portland.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2010/02/blazers_top_40_no_18_scottie_p.html[/url]

So these are from the Portland newspaper from people who covered the team. That is what I am saying. The same things are said by coach after coach, player after player, reporter after reporter about him. It is either one big conspiracy or it is the truth.

[QUOTE]Round ball think s he proved something. Mj is still the Goat no matter how much you try to downplay make up stats.[/QUOTE]

I proved that Pippen was a leader--refuting years of attacks from people like you and other MJ stans on Pip in that regard. :cheers:

Yeah, I agree, MJ is my co-GOAT along with KAJ.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Round ball think s he proved something.:roll: Mj is still the Goat no matter how much you try to downplay make up stats.[/QUOTE]

I doni't even think he's saying MJ isn't the GOAT.

I think that he's bitter (just like Pip) that MJ is seen as having the bigger role and main catalyst for the Bulls' success. So he tries and tries and tries to make it appear as tho Pip was THE reason for the Bulls' success. Even if that's not what he's trying to purposely do, that's how it's coming across to basically everybody.