Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

[QUOTE=eliteballer]LeBron explodes past his defender who can't recover. Jordan's barely touches him and doesn't impede him at all, he literally just touches him after Jordan's already past him.[/QUOTE]

Even if that's true, once Jordan gets past his man he has a center camped out in the lane waiting for him who goes for the block on the shot attempt. When LeBron gets past Johnson... who came to help? Was Noah waiting for him at the basket to challenge his shot and help his teammate? Why not?

[QUOTE=3ball]What difference does 1-4 make above in evaluating the FGA/Dunk stat?

The FGA/Dunk stat shows what the league is doing as a whole - this is how many advanced stats are used - they compare what the player does to what the league does as a whole.

So when comparing the defensive rating of teams in different eras, the league-wide average defensive rating is relevant to see how each team performed compared to what the rest of the league was doing... the FGA/Dunk stat accomplishes this same objective when compared to raw dunk stats.

Also, are you saying that the coverage Lebron faces - with the lower level of physicality that is allowed and the spacing - is tougher than what Jordan faced?

So why are all of Lebron's dunks wide open then?

Did you look at the tape for the 2013 and the 2014 season???... Lebron's dunks REALLY ARE open and uncontested... I'm not making that up... the way you are talking, it's like you aren't seeing the same wide open dunks and open space that i do.

Do you really want to compare the double teams, triple teams, lack of spacing and high level of physicality Jordan faced versus the Pistons, Knicks, and Seattle, to what Lebron faces?... One guy has room to operate, the other guy doesn't.. This isn't an issue that Lebron is going to come out on ahead on.[/QUOTE]
I want to be very precise and confident in our analysis.

As I've said plenty of times, I can't stand LeBron, and prefer watching MJ. I also think MJ is the superior dunker. But I want to be very confident that we're correct, not leaving room for error.

We very likely may reach the same conclusion, but there's no downside to doing extensive, detailed analysis (except the time spent of course, but time spent watching ball is time well spent IMO).

[QUOTE=eliteballer]It was contested...look at the two guys right in front of him. he just gets up too fast. Also checkout the youtube link to the James Johnson dunk. Stop your willful blindness.[/QUOTE]
Reach-ins and fly-bys don't count..

Chest-to-chest dunks are what i've been posting of Jordan... one after another amongst congestion.

How is it fair that you get to counter with weak fly-bys and reach-ins amongst great spacing?

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Even if that's true, once Jordan gets past his man he has a center camped out in the lane waiting for him who goes for the block on the shot attempt. When LeBron gets past Johnson... who came to help? Was Noah waiting for him at the basket to challenge his shot and help his teammate? Why not?[/QUOTE]

Noah got boxed out by Varaejo. It's basketball, it happens just like every play is different, just like Oakley, Ho Grant, Rodman blocked out guys for Jordan. Nitpicking every aspect of the play isn't doing anything. The assertion was LeBron couldn't explode like that off a short dribble, he did, to an even greater degree.

[QUOTE=3ball]Reach-ins and fly-bys don't count..

Chest-to-chest dunks are what i've been posting of Jordan... one after another amongst congestion.

How is it fair that you get to counter with weak fly-bys and reach-ins amongst great spacing?[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: You've been posting all kinds of dunks. The statistic you cited in the Op doesn't discriminate what TYPE of dunks they are.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Noah got boxed out by Varaejo. It's basketball, it happens just like every play is different, just like Oakley, Ho Grant, Rodman blocked out guys for Jordan. Nitpicking every aspect of the play isn't doing anything. The assertion was LeBron couldn't explode like that off a short dribble, [B]he did, to an even greater degree.[/B][/QUOTE]

Except he [I]clearly[/I] didn't and it was against no resistance whatsoever. Surely, you can find a better gif or video.

Show me ONE instance like this where Bron or any player from this era has to beat 2 doubles/trap before running into a 7 ft shot blocker who actually challenges his dunk attempt at the rim:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

I mean with advanced defense being what it is nowadays, this must go on all the time. I have no idea why you keep posting gifs of uncontested dunks where Bron bee-lines unimpeded to the basket (or at best him dunking over midgets or guys trying to take charges) :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU[/url]

and here's your hop step:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

the big differce is one one play defence against leflop :banana:
everyone is prefer looking him dunk than challenge leflop's shot: pathetic defence facepalm

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Waiting Loki:coleman:[/QUOTE]

I just see how pathetic defence by pistons :banana:

[QUOTE=eliteballer]LeBron explodes past his defender who can't recover. Jordan's barely touches him and doesn't impede him at all, he literally just touches him after Jordan's already past him.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="7"]LEBRON EXPLODES PAST THEM :roll: THE FACT IS HIS OPPENENT IS NOT EVEN TRYING TO DO ANYTHING TO CONTEST HIM,IT JUST SHOW HOW PATHETIC DEFENCE IN THIS ERA :banana: [/SIZE]

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Except he [I]clearly[/I] didn't and it was against no resistance whatsoever. Surely, you can find a better gif or video.

Show me ONE instance like this where Bron or any player from this era has to beat 2 doubles/trap before running into a 7 ft shot blocker who actually challenges his dunk attempt at the rim:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

I mean with advanced defense being what it is nowadays, this must go on all the time. I have no idea why you keep posting gifs of uncontested dunks where Bron bee-lines unimpeded to the basket (or at best him dunking over midgets or guys trying to take charges) :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]


eliteballer, you on the clock.

tick-tock, tick-tock...

[QUOTE=fpliii]I want to be very precise and confident in our analysis.

As I've said plenty of times, I can't stand LeBron, and prefer watching MJ. I also think MJ is the superior dunker. But I want to be very confident that we're correct, not leaving room for error.

We very likely may reach the same conclusion, but there's no downside to doing extensive, detailed analysis (except the time spent of course, but time spent watching ball is time well spent IMO).[/QUOTE]
It would be cool to watch a game where the 3-point line was removed... The entire game would be more compacted.... why would anyone even stand out far from the basket at all?... why take a further distance shot with with no extra compensation (extra point) to do so?

No need for scrambling schemes like strong-side floods or weak-side whatevers because those are already built into the game - the defenders don't need to flood over to a certain side because they are already there - everyone was in close proximity to everyone.

Why would a strong side flood be necessary here???

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paint_Congestion_in_Wilts_Era__e5cc5559f5ecbd15aefec46a22dd4b99.gif[/IMG]


or here?

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef003568c2.gif[/IMG]


The scrambling schemes are only needed in today's game BECAUSE of the 3-point shooting, floor-spacing, defensive 3 seconds and restrictions on hand-checking.... they are necessary BECAUSE defenders aren't allowed in the paint anymore and BECAUSE of the spacing... without these things, the schemes are not needed.. this concept seems very difficult for many hoops people to understand.
.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]The funny thing is he's right. I've actually noticed that. Not just with Bron either- centers don't really challenge dunks like they use to. Nowadays they either run away (or are forced to because of the 3 sec rule), try to take a charge, or stand in place with their hands in the air like that's going to do something. Guys like Zo and Ewing were in a lot of posters because they actually tried challenging/blocking dunks. Sometimes it didn't work out for them but most of the time they either blocked or altered shot/dunk attempts at the rim. Their blocking #s are a testament to that.

Guys are afraid of being dunked on now, but before it was accepted as part of the game.[/QUOTE]


I never said they don't challenge LBJ at the rim. I said they often get out the way on his dunks but they challenge his layups. The things I find odd is that the same people who get out the way on a Lebron dunk will still try blocking dunk from Durant, Paul George and many others. LBJ is the only one that causes dudes to run in fear:oldlol: The people that actually do challenge his dunks are his height or shorter:biggums:

[img]http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/967910/bron.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=eliteballer]
and here's your hop step:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
What I see here is an open dunk that Lebron got because[B] floor-spreaders spaced the floor for him in the corner (rashard lewis) and out top (ray allen)[/B], which gave him the space he needed to come down the lane unchallenged by anyone other than a feeble reach-in attempt by white dude #33 on the Pistons.
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[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]I never said they don't challenge LBJ at the rim. I said they often get out the way on his dunks but they challenge his layups.[/QUOTE]

And the paint and spacing on Jordan era layups was far worse. Look at the Houdini shit Jordan had to pull on a nightly basis just to get a layup to drop, forget dunks:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1FsD9Y7NfY[/url]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UC-BBSLgS8[/url]

[IMG]http://www.wikitree.co.kr/webdata/editor/201401/02/img_20140102160727_28d8fcda.gif[/IMG]

Life is much easier for perimeter players today.

Lebron gets 3-point shooting floor-spreaders and defensive 3 seconds.. and doesn't have to deal with a shot-blocking big at the rim.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]
Life is much easier for perimeter players today.[/QUOTE]

Ehh, it's just different. Teams now put far more emphasis on defending the 3 and less on protecting the rim. Someone like Wade would probably find it harder to score back then, but good three point shooters like Durant/Curry would feast on the 3-defense of the 80s/90s.