Coach Thibbs: "When Jordan was playing..."

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever][url]http://www.nba.com/2014/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/28/the-international-influence-mainbar/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt3a[/url]

A great article on the evolution of the "city game" into the world's game and the impact of internationals on the NBA.

I saw this interesting quote that could shed light on some of the debate on rules changes we were having here on ISH a couple months back..

""When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five."

Feel free to disagree with one of the NBA's best defensive minds.[/QUOTE]

WTF is your point? This has been explained to you over and over and over here, and why this is NOT a true zone defense, and you still can't get it?

And you just now even acknowledge the first part of it when a coach says it?

You are a nut.

[QUOTE=Purch]Makes sense.

Hand checking vs Zone rules have always been a give or take dynamic[/QUOTE]

Except that NBA does not allow zone defense.

It's absolutely amazing that people don't even know what a zone defense is on a basketball forum.

[QUOTE=3ball][url=http://grantland.com/features/packing-paint-nba-defensive-strategy-forcing-coaches-rethink-their-offense/]http://grantland.com/features/packing-paint-nba-defensive-strategy-forcing-coaches-rethink-their-offense/[/url]

[QUOTE=Euroleague]The NBA does not allow zone defense. STOP TROLLING and stop posting ridiculous articles like that.[/QUOTE]
The NBA's zone is a more complex, modified version of the European zone. It's better but still a zone nonetheless.

[QUOTE=3ball]Today's defensive 3 seconds rule requires defenders to stay out of the lane, unless they are within "armslength" of an opponent.. [url]http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html[/url]

The original rule from 1982 was different, and ALLOWED defenders to camp in the paint: ([url]http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html[/url])

[INDENT][B]1981-82[/B]
"[I]Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint)"[/I].[/INDENT]

So just by substituting the rule's own parenthetical reference, the rule translates EXACTLY to: "Defender on player adjacent to the paint is allowed in defensive 3 second area."


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b209aeddf6bfaaa9fcaed8eea3c72c65.gif[/IMG]


[b]in this clip, Klay Thompson's dad (#43 in the middle of lane) would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game because his man is out of "armslength".... but back then, he was legal because his man was "adjacent to the paint", which was the only requirement at the time - notice how there is no need for Thompson to tippy-toe in and out of the paint.
[/B]

in previous eras, guys didn't have to worry about staying out of the lane or tippy-toeing - the 3 seconds rule was very simple back then: as long as their man was "adjacent to the paint", defenders could stay in the lane... so usually, they could camp in the lane for the entire possession because the paint is huge, and "adjacent to the paint" covers a ton of ground... Furthermore, "adjacent to the paint" could mean right next to the paint, a few feet outside the paint, or all the way out to the 3-point line - [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1][u]defenders routinely camped in the paint while their man was behind the 3-point line[/u][/url].

contrastingly, today's rule makes sure defenders can physically touch their man to stay in the lane, by requiring defenders be within "armslength" of an opponent - since players that are outside, or "adjacent to the paint", are out of armslength to defenders inside the paint, players in today's game are not allowed to stay in the lane if their man is outside the paint.
.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. This is the difference between illegal defense rules (no zone allowed) and the current rules of defensive 3 seconds (no zone allowed).

These absolute MORONS calling the current rules "easier" or "zone defense" are unbelievable...........good GOD.

Freaking play a damn JUNIOR high school basketball game and this shit is even obvious.

The old rules were not zone and were HARDER to score against.

the new rules are NOT zone and are EASIER to score against.

Anyone saying anything to the contrary of that is a freaking idiot and does not know even the most basic rules of basketball.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Prime example of why that's bullshit:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

Jordan had to beat 2 traps/doubles (including one where the Knicks sent their PF or one of their 'bigs' to cut off his baseline drive)... only for him to be met at the basket by a 7 ft shot blocker because there was no 3-sec rule.

And if you watch the whole possession, the Bulls had to beat a full court trap zone to even get the ball past half court:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U[/url]

So again... what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

It's because he already had the ball in his hands.

[QUOTE=pauk]Exactly... this was a huge advantage for 80s-90s scorers... allowed you to have many one-on-one situations.... I mean literally speaking, like if you faced your man up and looked behind him there was no wall there behind ready to contest & take charges, you blew by your man and it was over, defenders could only then run in to help/contest the easy basket which is a whole bit harder...

Illegal defense was a bit different to say the least....

...and while fans think handchecking made it tougher for players to score, i think it actually HELPED if you were a bigger/stronger guy, why? Because you as an offensive player were allowed to counter that physically with your own hands & body aswell, you could get away with many more elbow/off-hand push ofs, body riding and you could slap the defenders arms away from your vicinity (like Jordan used to do alot).... so if you were strong/athletic (and smart) as Jordan no guy at your position was really at an advantage....

Jordan was great, but this indeed helped alot....[/QUOTE]

You fail at basic logic.

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]Great article. Pretty much settles the thread.[/QUOTE]

What this thread has confirmed is that a whole lot of people here never played basketball at any level in their life.

You are one of them.

[QUOTE=Euroleague]You fail at basic logic.[/QUOTE]
I noticed that too. It's amazing what some of these guys think :lol

[QUOTE=Milbuck]The NBA's zone is a more complex, modified version of the European zone. It's better but still a zone nonetheless.[/QUOTE]

Another clown that does not even know what a zone defense is.

3ball, I copy pasted below the link on the 1981-82 rule that you posted, and this is what it says:

"1981-82
• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side."

Please elaborate. Letter B is the same as today. You are allowed to be in the lane as long as you're guarding someone. However, in the past, you couldn't come over from the weak side like Thibs said.

Of course, I will allow that calls by refs tended to be inconsistent, at times

Also today, you are allowed in the paint WITHOUT GUARDING ANYONE for up to 3 seconds.

[QUOTE=Euroleague]The NBA does not allow zone defense. STOP TROLLING and stop posting ridiculous articles like that.[/QUOTE]

GTFO of this thread, EL!

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]3ball, I copy pasted below the link on the 1981-82 rule that you posted, and this is what it says:

"1981-82

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]GTFO of this thread, EL![/QUOTE]
But he's right.

Anybody that knows basic basketball will tell you the NBA doesn't play a true zone. Even then, it isn't used at all.

Different posters have already exposed how little the zones are actually used in the NBA today (or so called zone). Different rules simply disallow for a true zone to be played.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Prime example of why that's bullshit:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

Jordan had to beat 2 traps/doubles (including one where the Knicks sent their PF or one of their 'bigs' to cut off his baseline drive)... only for him to be met at the basket by a 7 ft shot blocker because there was no 3-sec rule.

And if you watch the whole possession, the Bulls had to beat a full court trap zone to even get the ball past half court:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U[/url]

So again... what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

when your own offensive player is between you and the bucket...a defender will be between you and the bucket. That isn't era specific. Someone has to defend a man under the bucket or it's a free score. What don't you understand about that? In your clip the 3 second rule wouldn't even apply because the guy that contested MJ was in the paint guarding his own man.


We have a bunch of nostalgia blind folks in this thread who refuse to understand how defense is more free to play zone and aggressively double team today, AND perimeter players don't have to deal with handchecking BUT they do have to watch their spacing and be able to shoot from distance or they **** up the offense without even touching the ball. [I][B]There is no more sending 3 guys to one side of the court and having them twiddle their ****ing thumbs (because they have to be defended even if they aren't a threat while your best two offensive players work to get a 1-on-1.[/B][/I]


Here's what the winningest coach in NBA history has to say:

"The game seems to flow better under those rules," says Nelson. "It's not as control-oriented as the pros have become. It's more, `Let's play basketball.' It allows any defense, so it's like a throwback. Our illegal defense is a main culprit. We can put one or two players away from the goal and play half-court, three-man and dictate how to play until the double team comes and then the ball is passed out and shot.