MJ is the most double-teamed player of all time, besides Wilt

[QUOTE=warriorfan]2000 Lakers were stacked with great defenders.[/QUOTE]

No they weren't.
You have no idea what you're talking about.

[QUOTE]Veteran AC Green was picking up pick and roll responsibilities for Shaq that year.
[/QUOTE]

Green was 36 years old and only played 22-mpg.
He was not a great defender and Shaq played great PnR defense in 00.

[QUOTE]meanwhile the Lakers defense dropped [/QUOTE]

That was because of chemistry issues, infighting, lack of effort by a disgruntled Shaq and other problems the team was having.

If you really think their defense fell off that hard because a 20mpg, 36 old roleplayer left the team then you're an idiot.

[B]Not to mention that they picked up Horace Grant in 01 who was a far, far better defender then Green was.
[/B]
Fukk off with that agenda fueled bullshit.
:coleman:

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]


[B]Now Jordan is a much better FT shooter and overall as you said he was probably the better scorer of the two.
[/B]

[/QUOTE]
Indeed, it's quite OBVIOUS that MJ scored more in the halfcourt, or ANY court:

[U]Career PPG in regular season and playoffs:[/U]


[I]JORDAN[/I]: 30.1 and 33.4 (#1 all time, #1 all-time)

[I]SHAQ[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 23.7 and 24.3 (#22 all-time, #24 all time)


This is why MJ was doubled more - because he was a much better scorer... /thread

[QUOTE=3ball]Indeed, it's quite OBVIOUS that MJ scored more in the halfcourt.[/QUOTE]

Scored more? Probably.
Scored better? Debatable.

You use career stats but that isn't really fair since Shaq hung around longer and ruined his shit.
Jordan didn't stick around past his Prime (which is a good thing).

[B]95-03 Shaq :[/B] 10.9 FGM on 19.5 FGA
[B]Jordan :[/B] 12.1 FGM on 25.5 FGA

So what do we have here?
Jordan did indeed "score more" as you said but he also took many more attempts.

Jordan made 1.2 more FG's per game but also used 6 more full attempts.

So I think clearly Shaq was scoring more effectively from the field.
---
That doesn't make him the better overall scorer because obviously FT's matter a great deal but strictly from the field Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent while making a comparable (if slightly lower) number of shots.

:cheers:

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]No they weren't.
You have no idea what you're talking about.



Green was 36 years old and only played 22-mpg.
He was not a great defender and Shaq played great PnR defense in 00.



That was because of chemistry issues, infighting, lack of effort by a disgruntled Shaq and other problems the team was having.

If you really think their defense fell off that hard because a 20mpg, 36 old roleplayer left the team then you're an idiot.

[B]Not to mention that they picked up Horace Grant in 01 who was a far, far better defender then Green was.
[/B]
Fukk off with that agenda fueled bullshit.
:coleman:[/QUOTE]

Horace Grant was not a good defender nor a better defender than AC Green. This gets reflected when Horace Grant replaced AC Green in the rotation and the the Laker's defense suffered greatly due to the loss of pick and roll coverage. Opposing teams knew how Shaq was vulnerable to pick and roll and exploited the advantage regularly.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]Scored more? Probably.
Scored better? Debatable.

You use career stats but that isn't really fair since Shaq hung around longer and ruined his shit.
Jordan didn't stick around past his Prime (which is a good thing).

[B]95-03 Shaq :[/B] 10.9 FGM on 19.5 FGA
[B]Jordan :[/B] 12.1 FGM on 25.5 FGA

So what do we have here?
Jordan did indeed "score more" as you said but he also took many more attempts.

Jordan made 1.2 more FG's per game but also used 6 more full attempts.

So I think clearly Shaq was scoring more effectively from the field.
---
That doesn't make him the better overall scorer because obviously FT's matter a great deal but strictly from the field Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent while making a comparable (if slightly lower) number of shots.

:cheers:[/QUOTE]

Ether!


And 2000-2002 Shaq was FAR more unstoppable than MJ ever was

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]Scored more? Probably.
Scored better? Debatable.

You use career stats but that isn't really fair since Shaq hung around longer and ruined his shit.
Jordan didn't stick around past his Prime (which is a good thing).

[B]95-03 Shaq :[/B] 10.9 FGM on 19.5 FGA
[B]Jordan :[/B] 12.1 FGM on 25.5 FGA

So what do we have here?
Jordan did indeed "score more" as you said but he also took many more attempts.

Jordan made 1.2 more FG's per game but also used 6 more full attempts.

So I think clearly Shaq was scoring more effectively from the field.
---
That doesn't make him the better overall scorer because obviously FT's matter a great deal but strictly from the field Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent while making a comparable (if slightly lower) number of shots.

:cheers:[/QUOTE]

What years are you using for Jordan here? Is this playoffs or RS for both players?

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Horace Grant was not a good defender nor a better defender than AC Green.
[/QUOTE]

#1. Grant was a great defender.
He was a guy always known for his excellent defense.
Ask any decent poster on the board and they'll confirm it for you.

#2. He was a better defender then Green who was a year away from retirement and infact did retire in 2001 playing 16-mpg for Miami before calling it quits.

[QUOTE]This gets reflected when Horace Grant replaced AC Green in the rotation and the the Laker's defense suffered greatly due to the loss of pick and roll coverage.
[/QUOTE]

That is simply not true nor what happened.
Chemistry issues are what caused the Laker's to underperform in the reg-season that year.

Once they "figured things out" by the end of the year their defense returned to its normal level.
[COLOR="DarkRed"]In the playoffs they had by far the best defense in the league.[/COLOR]
So that alone immediately disproves your theory that they needed Green for their defense to be elite or that he played any significant role in their defense being elite in 2000.

Infact their playoff defense in 2001 was considerably better then their playoff defense in 2000.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]#1. Grant was a great defender.
He was a guy always known for his excellent defense.
Ask any decent poster on the board and they'll confirm it for you.

#2. He was a better defender then Green who was a year away from retirement and infact did retire in 2001 playing 16-mpg for Miami before calling it quits.



That is simply not true nor what happened.
Chemistry issues are what caused the Laker's to underperform in the reg-season that year.

Once they "figured things out" by the end of the year their defense returned to its normal level.
[COLOR="DarkRed"]In the playoffs they had by far the best defense in the league.[/COLOR]
So that alone immediately disproves your theory that they needed Green for their defense to be elite or that he played any significant role in their defense being elite in 2000.

Infact their playoff defense in 2001 was considerably better then their playoff defense in 2000.[/QUOTE]

Their chemistry change was due to the fact that they had a hole in the pick and role coverage, something that Horace Grant never excelled at.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif[/IMG]


[B]So I think clearly Shaq was scoring more effectively from the field.
[/B]

[/QUOTE]
:facepalm

[COLOR="Red"][B]Why do mods let dumbs stuff like this fly?... Unlike Shaq, Jordan took shots OUTSIDE OF 5 FEET - MJ was better at converting FG's everywhere on the floor.. But once again, MJ can win this argument anyway even using your dumb, erroneous, twisted logic: [/B][/COLOR]

[B]Prime MJ's paint and at-rim percentages beat Shaq's.. MJ shot 74% [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950]at the rim in 1992[/url] - this is the same as Shaq's career 74% at the rim... And MJ's fg% in the entire 16 x 19 foot paint was 59%, which destroys Shaq, since he shoots 42% from 3-10 feet and 27% from 10-16 feet.. So MJ shoots the same percentage at the rim, and blows Shaq away from virtually every other distance.
[/B]
[B]I have a question for you - how does it feel to be a complete dumbass... But it's okay - you shouldn't be surprised that prime MJ was the superior shot-maker in the paint - for example, MJ and Dr. J are the only wing players in history with sufficient explosion off two feet to dunk on a massive, physically dominant center without needing any dribbles or steps (see gif above) - and he was 34 at the time of that dunk.[/B]


[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

but strictly from the field Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent

[/QUOTE]
This was just debunked in previous response above... Again don't be surprised that prime MJ was a superior finisher in the paint - prime MJ overpowered and finished over bigs like no player in the history of the game - try to imagine Kobe, Westbrook, Lebron, Harden or Durant doing any of these moves below - THEY SIMPLY CAN'T - they don't have the [I][COLOR="Navy"]full combination of athleticism[/COLOR][/I] necessary (including big hands):

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MaYccWpdZ4[/url]
[url]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-27-2015/zU1xdh.gif[/url]
[url]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2015/Kxoq9J.gif[/url]
[url]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-25-2015/sKMzUP.gif[/url]


RON ARTEST:

[INDENT][I]"MJ is the toughest to guard because [COLOR="blue"]he's as strong as Lebron[/COLOR], he shoots just as good as Reggie Miller from the midrange, and he's tough... He's a killer out there on the court."[/I]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m59s[/url][/INDENT]


MAGIC JOHNSON:

[INDENT][I]"MJ's strength is like a big man's. He's the strongest guard, I'm talking about body-wise, to ever play."[/I]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=1m52s[/url][/INDENT]
.

Facts are facts Mr. 3ball.

Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent from the field on only slightly lower volume.

Here is another way of looking at it.

[B]Shaq =[/B] 22-ppg on 19.5 FGA
[B]MJ =[/B] 25-ppg on 25.1 FGA

Which is better?
Shaq obviously...

Give him 5.8 extra FGA at (for him) a conservative 55% rate and he scores an extra 6.16-ppg.

So.
[B]Shaq =[/B] 28-ppg
[B]MJ =[/B] 25-ppg

Shaq wins. :pimp:

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent from the field on only slightly lower volume.

[/QUOTE]
Are you stupid - MJ shot FG's from all over the floor not just in the paint, and Shaq shot a WORSE percentage in the 16 x 19 foot paint than MJ anyway.

Shaq shot 42% from 3-10 feet for his career - MJ destroys this... Shaq shot 27% from 10-16 feet - MJ destroys this... And prime MJ shot [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950]the same 74%[/url] at the rim as Shaq... So MJ is the better shotmaker inside the 16 x 19 foot paint.. But I know you're too dumb to understand what I just wrote.

So prime MJ shot the same percentage at the rim as Shaq, while shooting far better everywhere else on the floor.

MJ is the superior shot maker, by far, and the stats prove it.
[COLOR="White"]inb4 i have to repeat myself to this dumbass[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=3ball]Are you stupid[/QUOTE]

Are you?

[B]Prime Playoff FG%[/B]
-------------------
[B]Shaq =[/B] .560%
[B]Jordan =[/B] .487%

Just so you know FG% represents efficiency from the field.
There is no debating the[B] irrefutable fact[/B] that Shaq was much more dangerous and unstoppable scorer then MJ outside of the FT line.

If Jordan was more efficient from every area of the floor as you stupidly say then his FG% would be higher but it isn't and he wasn't.
Durrrrrrr.

Give Shaq the FT shooting ability of MJ and he'd be a far better overall scorer then Jordan ever was.

MJ's FG% cratered as his athleticism faded, while Shaq was still 56%+ FG all the way throughout his career

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

If Jordan was more efficient from every area of the floor as you stupidly say then his FG% would be higher but it isn't and he wasn't.

[/QUOTE]
No, you're just too dumb to understand that Shaq only took high percentage at-rim shots.. Otoh, MJ took the high efficiency at-rim shots too, but he ALSO took many lower efficiency shots outside of 5 feet, which lowered his overall FG%.

Again, in MJ's prime, he shot 74% at the rim just like Shaq, and destroyed Shaq everywhere else on the floor... But again, the higher proportion of lower percentage shots MJ took further from the basket made his FG% lower than Shaq's - this is statistical fact, but you're just too dumb to understand it..

Go back to school you dumb ****, so then you won't be a dumb **** anymore... It's good advice, you should take it.

[QUOTE=3ball]No, you're just too dumb to understand that Shaq only took high percentage at-rim shots.[/QUOTE]

[B]Translation :[/B] Shaq could consistently create high percentage shots for himself close to the basket and Jordan couldn't so Shaq was more effective and shot a higher percentage.

I mean... yeah.
Like... is Carmelo a better scorer then Kareem because his shot spread is far more diverse and he uses more moves?

Dummy.