Remember when 34-35 year old MJ was more dominant than 2000 Shaq?

[QUOTE=Dr Hawk]Why does it matter the advantage against peers?

The question is, who had more defensive impact, 00 O'Neal or 97' Jordan. That's it, the rest of the players don't matter here.

Who had more defensive impact, peak Pippen or peak David Lee? Peak Moncrief or peak Bargnani? Answers to these questions are obvious, there is no need at all to look at their contemporary peers. I don't understand why you talk about Longley here, we are comparing O'Neal to Jordan, that's it[/QUOTE]

you can't understand it because it's an incredibly stupid deflection.

[QUOTE=Dr Hawk]Why does it matter the advantage against peers?

The question is, who had more defensive impact, 00 O'Neal or 97' Jordan. That's it, the rest of the players don't matter here.

Who had more defensive impact, peak Pippen or peak David Lee? Peak Moncrief or peak Bargnani? Answers to these questions are obvious, there is no need at all to look at their contemporary peers.[B] I don't understand why you talk about Longley here[/B], we are comparing O'Neal to Jordan, that's it[/QUOTE]

Only Goofball understands this comparison.

He is the inventor of the now famous math equation...

[B]2 - 2 = 4[/B]

.
[COLOR="White"].........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]40.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]37.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]46.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]40.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]50.4[/url] [B][COLOR="Green"]<--- links to data[/COLOR][/B]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]42.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]39.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]48.8[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]43.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]49.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]35.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]34.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]39.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]43.9[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]35.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]26.2[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]35.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]25.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.1[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]28.2[/url]




[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentages of team points [COLOR="Red"]+ assists[/COLOR] while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]

[QUOTE=Dr. Hawk]

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Why does it matter the advantage against peers?[/COLOR][/B]

[/QUOTE]
Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the [I][COLOR="blue"]advantage they give their team[/COLOR][/I] depends on how their impact relates to other CENTERS, not guards.

Shaq's team realizes no [I][U]advantage[/U][/I] when his impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. [I][COLOR="Navy"]Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??[/COLOR][/I].. Shaq's team realizes no [I][U]advantage[/U][/I] from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "[I]defensive box score[/I]" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact a player can provide.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact[/COLOR][/I] - the point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to Pippen, Lebron or ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams (ranked in top 6 once in 15 years, thru his Miami days).

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even when Shaq had solid defenders like Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe and Alonzo Mourning.



[U]Shaq's all-defensive teammates:[/U]

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
[I]4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates[/I]




[U]MJ's all-defensive teammates:[/U]

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
[I]3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates
[/I]



[U]Shaq's team's defensive ranks thru his Miami days:[/U]

1993 Orlando: 12[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1994 Orlando: 15
1995 Orlando: 13
1996 Orlando: 12
1997 Lakers: 8[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1998 Lakers: 11
1999 Lakers: 23
2000 Lakers: 1
2001 Lakers: 21
2002 Lakers: 7
2003 Lakers: 19
2004 Lakers: 8
2005 Miami: 6
2006 Miami: 9[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
2007 Miami: 8[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
_________________
11.5 average

[I][I](asterisk means no all-defensive players on team)[/I][/I]



[U]Jordan's team's defensive ranks as Bull[/U]

1985 Bulls: 20[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1987 Bulls: 11[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1988 Bulls: 3[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1989 Bulls: 11[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1990 Bulls: 19[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1991 Bulls: 7
1992 Bulls: 4
1993 Bulls: 7
1996 Bulls: 1
1997 Bulls: 4
1998 Bulls: 3
_______________
8.18 average



[B]A couple caveats:[/B]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]1) Shaq had Alonzo Mourning on his team leading the bench in 2006 - Alonzo averaged an amazing 2.7 blocks in 20 minutes per game.

2) Shaq had Horace Grant starting every game for Lakers in 2001, with averages of 9/7, not far off his career averages of 11/8.

3) People say Pippen > Kobe defensively - well apparently, not relative to his competition, as evidenced by Kobe's equivalent number of 1st team all-defensive selections - when evaluating things in basketball, "relative to the competition" is the name of the game.[/COLOR][/I]


[B]Conclusion:[/B] [I]Considering Shaq had all-defensive wing teammates his entire career (and frontcourt player Horace in Orlando), there's no excuse for Shaq NOT being the difference that drove teams to elite defensive status like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing's did... Shaq simply wasn't a great defender relative to the elite defenders at his position and vastly underachieved defensively... Furthermore, his lack of work ethic and lazy mentality permeated his teams.

Otoh, Jordan's teams were rated higher defensively his entire career, despite having less all-defensive teammates.. This shouldn't be surprising since Jordan gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - Jordan was the far superior defender relative to his peers than Shaq, and his far superior work ethic/mentality rubbed off on the entire team.[/I]
.

[QUOTE=3ball]There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even when Shaq had solid defenders like Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe and Alonzo Mourning.

And there's no definitive stat or data that really measures defensive impact concretely - so what I'm saying could be as right as anything out there..

[I][COLOR="Navy"]Here are the FACTS we know[/COLOR]: the defensive impact that Shaq gave the Lakers was often wiped out by the other team's center, like Hakeem, David Robinson, Dikembe or Alonzo, who gave their team greater defensive impacts.
[/I]
This didn't happen for Jordan because he was the best defensive SG in the league... On average, he gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - as an example, look at the Kobe vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-0.5 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Longley vs. Shaq (1.7 to Shaq's 1.6).

Now I'll concede that if you replaced Jordan with Hakeem or Robinson, the Bulls would be a better defensive team than with Jordan - but again, those guys were the best defensive players at their position just like Jordan was, and their defensive advantage over other centers was likely bigger than Jordan's advantage over other SG's.

So it isn't remarkable that replacing Jordan with them would lead to a better defensive team... But not Shaq - he was only 2nd team all-defense 3 times in his 17 year career (never 1st team) and his teams rarely ranked near the top defensively - and again, his defensive boxscore advantage over the opposing center was less than the defensive boxscore advantage Jordan had over his matchup at SG, so Jordan was giving his team a bigger defensive impact in that regard.

So yeah, MJ was the better defender in my book, and you can't prove me wrong... And we already know MJ provided the far greater [I]offensive[/I] impact (see previous post).[/QUOTE]
You mean Pippen was the better defender. 1-9

[QUOTE]the defensive impact that Shaq gave his team was often wiped out by the other team's center, like Hakeem, David Robinson[/QUOTE]

In his 26 career H2H's with Ewing,

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=ewingpa01&p2=onealsh01[/url]

Shaq outscored him on average by a 28.7 ppg to 21.4 ppg margin, and outshot him by a .542 to .444 margin.


How about against David Robinson?

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=onealsh01[/url]

Shaq outscored him in their 23 regular season H2H's, 26.1 ppg to 18.6 ppg, and outshot him by a .536 to .470 margin.

In their 17 post-season H2H's, the margins were 24.7 ppg to 9.6 ppg, and .523 to .451.


And how about the great Hakeem?

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01[/url]

20 regular season H2H's... 22.1 ppg to 18.4 ppg, and .544 to .447.
8 post-season H2H's... 28.8 ppg to 23.0 ppg, and .556 to .465.


Next bit of nonsense...

Surely if you tally only percentage of team points scored and assists, you exclude the biggest advantage Shaq has over MJ: rebounding. If you factor that in, peak Shaq would probably come out on top (I haven't checked). Of course there's an issue of what weighting should be given to each category in terms of importance, which is when it once again becomes arbitrary horse shit.

I can roll with the idea that second three peat MJ was a better overall player than peak Shaq, though I would disagree and limit that to only peak Jordan. However, when you start throwing around hyperbole like 'far greater', it's farcical, delusional and frankly trolling.

Just quickly checked the data, and 00-02 Shaq was pulling down roughly 35-40% of the team rebounds in the playoffs, while MJ around 15-20%. That makes a difference.

Basketball reference really ****ing up your fairy tales this week, huh 3ball. :applause:

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]Surely if you tally only percentage of team points scored and assists, you exclude the biggest advantage Shaq has over MJ: rebounding. If you factor that in, peak Shaq would probably come out on top (I haven't checked). Of course there's an issue of what weighting should be given to each category in terms of importance, which is when it once again becomes arbitrary horse shit.

I can roll with the idea that second three peat MJ was a better overall player than peak Shaq, though I would disagree and limit that to only peak Jordan. However, when you start throwing around hyperbole like 'far greater', it's farcical, delusional and frankly trolling.

Just quickly checked the data, and 00-02 Shaq was pulling down roughly 35-40% of the team rebounds in the playoffs, while MJ around 15-20%. That makes a difference.[/QUOTE]

Agree. I don't think its crazy to say that Shaq even in his peak was overrated due to his historically bad free throw shooting and that there a number of better players, such as 34-35 year old Jordan, who was better as a result. Not a crazy thought.

I'd probably say Shaq has been underrated for the most part though, especially since Wilt and Russell had the same issue. Maybe I'm mistaken, but was there ever a Hack-a-Wilt/Russell strategy back then? I'd assume not due to the "three shots to make two" rule. If not, then Shaq should probably get more credit, relatively speaking.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

In his 26 career H2H's with Ewing,


How about against David Robinson?


And how about the great Hakeem?

[/QUOTE]
All these guys are far better defenders than Shaq, which makes my point - centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the [I][COLOR="blue"]advantage they give their team[/COLOR][/I] depends on how their impact relates to other CENTERS, not guards.

Shaq's team realizes no [I][U]advantage[/U][/I] when his impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. [I][COLOR="Navy"]Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??[/COLOR][/I].. Shaq's team realizes no [I][U]advantage[/U][/I] from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "[I]defensive box score[/I]" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact a player can provide.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact[/COLOR][/I] - the point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to Pippen, Lebron or ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams (ranked in top 6 once in 15 years, thru his Miami days).

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even when Shaq had solid defenders like Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe and Alonzo Mourning.



[U]Shaq's all-defensive teammates:[/U]

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
[I]4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates[/I]




[U]MJ's all-defensive teammates:[/U]

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
[I]3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates
[/I]



[U]Shaq's team's defensive ranks thru his Miami days:[/U]

1993 Orlando: 12[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1994 Orlando: 15
1995 Orlando: 13
1996 Orlando: 12
1997 Lakers: 8[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1998 Lakers: 11
1999 Lakers: 23
2000 Lakers: 1
2001 Lakers: 21
2002 Lakers: 7
2003 Lakers: 19
2004 Lakers: 8
2005 Miami: 6
2006 Miami: 9[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
2007 Miami: 8[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
_________________
11.5 average

[I][I](asterisk means no all-defensive players on team)[/I][/I]



[U]Jordan's team's defensive ranks as Bull[/U]

1985 Bulls: 20[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1987 Bulls: 11[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1988 Bulls: 3[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1989 Bulls: 11[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1990 Bulls: 19[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1991 Bulls: 7
1992 Bulls: 4
1993 Bulls: 7
1996 Bulls: 1
1997 Bulls: 4
1998 Bulls: 3
_______________
8.18 average



[B]A couple caveats:[/B]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]1) Shaq had Alonzo Mourning on his team leading the bench in 2006 - Alonzo averaged an amazing 2.7 blocks in 20 minutes per game.

2) Shaq had Horace Grant starting every game for Lakers in 2001, with averages of 9/7, not far off his career averages of 11/8.

3) People say Pippen > Kobe defensively - well apparently, not relative to his competition, as evidenced by Kobe's equivalent number of 1st team all-defensive selections - when evaluating things in basketball, "relative to the competition" is the name of the game.[/COLOR][/I]


[B]Conclusion:[/B] [I]Considering Shaq had all-defensive wing teammates his entire career (and frontcourt player Horace in Orlando), there's no excuse for Shaq NOT being the difference that drove teams to elite defensive status like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing's did... Shaq simply wasn't a great defender relative to the elite defenders at his position and vastly underachieved defensively... Furthermore, his lack of work ethic and lazy mentality permeated his teams.

Otoh, Jordan's teams were rated higher defensively his entire career, despite having less all-defensive teammates.. This shouldn't be surprising since Jordan gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - Jordan was the far superior defender relative to his peers than Shaq, and his far superior work ethic/mentality rubbed off on the entire team.[/I]
.

[QUOTE=guy]

Agree. I don't think its crazy to say that Shaq even in his peak was overrated due to his historically bad free throw shooting and that there a number of better players, such as 34-35 year old Jordan, who was better as a result. Not a crazy thought.

I'd probably say Shaq has been underrated for the most part though, especially since Wilt and Russell had the same issue. Maybe I'm mistaken, but was there ever a Hack-a-Wilt/Russell strategy back then? I'd assume not due to the "three shots to make two" rule. If not, then Shaq should probably get more credit, relatively speaking.

[/QUOTE]
We know that old MJ carried a [I]FAR[/I] bigger load offensively than prime Shaq - we can say "[I]FAR[/I]" bigger, because that's what the OP data shows - it speaks for itself.

[QUOTE=3ball]We know that old MJ carried a [I]FAR[/I] bigger load offensively than prime Shaq - we can say "[I]FAR[/I]" bigger, because that's what the OP data shows - it speaks for itself.[/QUOTE]

Once again hyperbole centred on cherry picked stats. If we're considering offense it would be wrong to exclude offensive rebounding from your stats.

MJ finals 97: 40.9 %PTS, 32.7 %AST, 14.5 %OREB, -19.7 %TOV

Shaq finals 00: 38.4 %PTS, 10.3 %AST, 51.5 %OREB, -21 %TOV

what kind of drug makes you 3ball?

im legit curious

Stop bumping this thread...it's just embarassing to read the title of this thread. 3ball truly is demented...not because of the fact that he thinks what he thinks...there are a lot of morons here...but because he just...won't...****ing...STOP.

:rolleyes: