Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

[QUOTE=Glove_20]Just tell me what he was better in. You think he was a better scorer? 21/50% >>> 22/45%.

And honestly, the edge in passing/playmaking is so great, that nothing can make it up.[/QUOTE]
KJ drove to the hoop much more then not only Hal but probally any guard during the 1960's. Hal Greer was a great jump shooter and probally most of his points were on jump shots.


KJ was a better palaymaker, because he was the point guard, Hal was a combo shooting guard/small foward like Sam Jones. His career high in assist is over 5 assist per. He was top ten in assist 3 times during his career's wich probally means he was a good passer.


He has a more accomplishments then KJ, 7 All-NBA 2nd teams to KJ's 4 and Ten All-Star games compared to his 3.


He was considered the 3rd best gurd of his era behind Oscar and West.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]KJ drove to the hoop much more then not only Hal but probally any guard during the 1960's. Hal Greer was a great jump shooter and probally most of his points were on jump shots.


KJ was a better palaymaker, because he was the point guard, Hal was a combo shooting guard/small foward like Sam Jones. His career high in assist is over 5 assist per. He was top ten in assist 3 times during his career's wich probally means he was a good passer.


He has a more accomplishments then KJ, 7 All-NBA 2nd teams to KJ's 4 and Ten All-Star games compared to his 3.


He was considered the 3rd best gurd of his era behind Oscar and West.[/QUOTE]

Well its not just that KJ drove in a lot, it was also that he was very good at driving in. Great penetrator and very quick and fast. He was better than Greer was or could be.

KJ also had a deadly mid-range jumper. Right there with Greer's.


But anyways, sure Greer has the longevity factor over Kevin Johnson, but thats really as far as its going to get.



And who cares if KJ drove in a lot? He was good at it so he did. That doesn't make him any less of a scorer. He was still a better scorer than Greer.


And yeah KJ was a PG, but the passing/playmaking edge stays for KJ.


And really, you still haven't shown one major area of their game where Greer was better. KJ obviously was the better player.



As for the All-NBA Teams, would Greer have made them if Jordan, Magic, Stockton, Drexler, Hardaway were all his rivals to make the All-NBA 2nd? And either way, KJ was underrated.







Greer has no advantage over Kevin Johnson besides longevity. Kevin Johnson was "easily" the better player.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]Well its not just that KJ drove in a lot, it was also that he was very good at driving in. Great penetrator and very quick and fast. He was better than Greer was or could be.

KJ also had a deadly mid-range jumper. Right there with Greer's.


But anyways, sure Greer has the longevity factor over Kevin Johnson, but thats really as far as its going to get.



And who cares if KJ drove in a lot? He was good at it so he did. That doesn't make him any less of a scorer. He was still a better scorer than Greer.


And yeah KJ was a PG, but the passing/playmaking edge stays for KJ.


And really, you still haven't shown one major area of their game where Greer was better. KJ obviously was the better player.



As for the All-NBA Teams, would Greer have made them if Jordan, Magic, Stockton, Drexler, Hardaway were all his rivals to make the All-NBA 2nd? And either way, KJ was underrated.







Greer has no advantage over Kevin Johnson besides longevity. Kevin Johnson was "easily" the better player.[/QUOTE]
I'm not trying to take anything from KJ by saying he went to the basket more I wasjust stating that how his FG % was really high (like Tony Parker). I was saying that most guards back in the 60's didn't go to the hoop a lot a relied on their jump shot, witch Hal Greer had one of the best in the league.


[QUOTE]One of Greer's strong points was his jump shot. His favorite spot to hit from was inside the top of the key. His one-time coach, Alex Hannum, said Greer could sink that shot about 70 percent of the time and encouraged him to take it whenever he had the opportunity. "Hal's quickness enables him to free himself for the moment of daylight that he needs," Hannum said. "He's so good on his jumper that it startles you when he misses."[/QUOTE]


Hal was a better rebounder then Kev.


I wouldn't call Jordan and Magic KJ's rivals to makew the All-NBA second team and Hal hade some comp for 2nd place in Dave Bing and Peal Monre among others.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I'm not trying to take anything from KJ by saying he went to the basket more I wasjust stating that how his FG % was really high (like Tony Parker). I was saying that most guards back in the 60's didn't go to the hoop a lot a relied on their jump shot, witch Hal Greer had one of the best in the league.





Hal was a better rebounder then Kev.


I wouldn't call Jordan and Magic KJ's rivals to makew the All-NBA second team and Hal hade some comp for 2nd place in Dave Bing and Peal Monre among others.[/QUOTE]


1. Yeah and whats wrong with talking it to the hoop to get a high FG%. That still makes you a better scorer...I'd rather have a player that takes it to the hoop and puts the same amount of points on a higher FG% than low FG% with same points becaue of jump shot...

Bottom line, takiing it to the hoop, and getting a better FG%, is better and more effective than what Greer has done on the scoring end, and the numbers prove it.



2. I think you haven't mentioned it yet, or acknowledged it, but Kevin Johnson also is an excellent shooter. Not only did you have to stop him from penetrating and creating offense, you also had to watch out for his mid-range jumper.

Here are some quotes GMAT posted....

[B][I]"The fact that he can shoot and drive presents a problem, You can't play him just one way. You can't say, `I'll play him back and make him shoot the jumper,' because that's what he likes to do. You've got to get up on him and play him as tough as possible."[/I][/B]

-Byron Scott



[I][B]Many players and coaches believe Kevin Johnson is the quickest player in the league, especially off the dribble. His uncanny ability to penetrate puts constant pressure on opposing defenses, and Johnson has also become an excellent outside shooter.[/B][/I]

-Sports Article (NY Times) in 1989

[B][I]
Many players and coaches believe Kevin Johnson is the quickest player in the league, especially off the dribble. His uncanny ability to penetrate puts constant pressure on opposing defenses, and [U]Johnson has also become an excellent outside shooter[/U][/I][/B]

-Same article (NY Times) in 1989





Bottom line, not only was he really quick, he could also shoot that mid-range jumper.

He was a better scorer than Hal Greer.




2. Ok Hal Greer was a better rebounder because of his size. And KJ was 100 times the passer. It doesn't matter if he is a PG, PGs are usually higher ranked because of that. He creates the whole offense for his team. Can't say the same for Greer. KJ not only scores very well, but he also sets up his teams. Greer only does the first mostly.


With the only advantage being reboudngin, I don't see how it is close.



3. Lastly, nice try, Greer was in the 60s. Bing and Monroe were in the 70s. They weren't really competetion for Greer for the All-NBA Teams. Maybe 1 year where they crossed, and "maybe" 1 year.

KJ routinly had to go against Stockton, Drexler, Hardaway, Price.


But seriously, a player that creates the offense and scores for it as well as KJ, is better than Greer.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]1. Yeah and whats wrong with talking it to the hoop to get a high FG%. That still makes you a better scorer...I'd rather have a player that takes it to the hoop and puts the same amount of points on a higher FG% than low FG% with same points becaue of jump shot...

Bottom line, takiing it to the hoop, and getting a better FG%, is better and more effective than what Greer has done on the scoring end, and the numbers prove it.



2. I think you haven't mentioned it yet, or acknowledged it, but Kevin Johnson also is an excellent shooter. Not only did you have to stop him from penetrating and creating offense, you also had to watch out for his mid-range jumper.

Here are some quotes GMAT posted....

[B][I]"The fact that he can shoot and drive presents a problem, You can't play him just one way. You can't say, `I'll play him back and make him shoot the jumper,' because that's what he likes to do. You've got to get up on him and play him as tough as possible."[/I][/B]

-Byron Scott



[I][B]Many players and coaches believe Kevin Johnson is the quickest player in the league, especially off the dribble. His uncanny ability to penetrate puts constant pressure on opposing defenses, and Johnson has also become an excellent outside shooter.[/B][/I]

-Sports Article (NY Times) in 1989

[B][I]
Many players and coaches believe Kevin Johnson is the quickest player in the league, especially off the dribble. His uncanny ability to penetrate puts constant pressure on opposing defenses, and [U]Johnson has also become an excellent outside shooter[/U][/I][/B]

-Same article (NY Times) in 1989





Bottom line, not only was he really quick, he could also shoot that mid-range jumper.

He was a better scorer than Hal Greer.




2. Ok Hal Greer was a better rebounder because of his size. And KJ was 100 times the passer. It doesn't matter if he is a PG, PGs are usually higher ranked because of that. He creates the whole offense for his team. Can't say the same for Greer. KJ not only scores very well, but he also sets up his teams. Greer only does the first mostly.


With the only advantage being reboudngin, I don't see how it is close.



3. Lastly, nice try, Greer was in the 60s. Bing and Monroe were in the 70s. They weren't really competetion for Greer for the All-NBA Teams. Maybe 1 year where they crossed, and "maybe" 1 year.

KJ routinly had to go against Stockton, Drexler, Hardaway, Price.


But seriously, a player that creates the offense and scores for it as well as KJ, is better than Greer.[/QUOTE]
There is nothing wrong at all with taking it too the hoop, but I' was sayng Greer didn't take it to the hoop as most guards in bis era didn't tke the ball to the rack. That's like saying Ray Allen was a better three point shooter then Pistol Pete, well Pete didn't take 3's because they didn't have the line and Hal didn't take it to the basket because guards then relied on their jumper more. Also, I know how good a jump shooter KJ was, I was a Rockets fan in the mid-90's.


Hal was only 6'2 to KJ's 6'1 so the height isn't really that big of a difference.


Also Greer actually set up his team really good, just because his's assist numbers aren't high doesn't mean he was a bad playmaker. Also assist numbers weren't that high in the 1960's as they were in the early 90's. I just picked a random year in the 60's; Jerry West was 3rd in assist in 1965 with [B]6.3 assist per game[/B]. He finished 7th, 8th and 10th in assist for 3 seasons (good for a shooting guard/small foward) back then.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]There is nothing wrong at all with taking it too the hoop, but I' was sayng Greer didn't take it to the hoop as most guards in bis era didn't tke the ball to the rack. That's like saying Ray Allen was a better three point shooter then Pistol Pete, well Pete didn't take 3's because they didn't have the line and Hal didn't take it to the basket because guards then relied on their jumper more. Also, I know how good a jump shooter KJ was, I was a Rockets fan in the mid-90's.


Hal was only 6'2 to KJ's 6'1 so the height isn't really that big of a difference.


Also Greer actually set up his team really good, just because his's assist numbers aren't high doesn't mean he was a bad playmaker. Also assist numbers weren't that high in the 1960's as they were in the early 90's. I just picked a random year in the 60's; Jerry West was 3rd in assist in 1965 with [B]6.3 assist per game[/B]. He finished 7th, 8th and 10th in assist for 3 seasons (good for a shooting guard/small foward) back then.[/QUOTE]


1. I mean even when he did take it in, his driving game wasn't nearly as good as KJ's. And you look at players like Tiny Archibald, they took it in quite a bit. And Archibald himself said KJ was quicker and a better shooter.

Greer was one of those players who took it in less than the average player even back then. He's like the Rip Hamilton of today. He stayed at jump shooting vs. driving more than the average player even bac kthen. It also explains his lack of injuries. And once again, KJ was a good jump shooter too.


Anyways, even if you make Greer's %, a little higher, he still isn't as good of a scorer as KJ. But Greer would be like Rip Hamilton today, he'd still shoot a lot of jumpers.




2. Although Greer is only a inch taller,

A. The pace was faster back then
B. His teammates and the whole league was shorter, so making him taller compared to the rest of the league vs. KJ


3. And come on, KJ has finished Top 3 in assists 4 times, and has put up 10+ apg 4 years in a row at one time.



KJ has "proven" to improve teammates.
Bring out the best of his teammates.

Things that "All-Time" greats do. He has been the captain and catalyst of the top offenses of his generation. And they were mostly that good because of him.

Its like the Steve Nash affect, KJ had it too.







We are really comparing Greer (All-Star Caliber player) to a KJ (Superstar)


There are so many things Kevin Johnson does that Greer can't.

Its like comparing Rip Hamilton to Steve Nash today.
KJ is a better scorer than Nash, and Greer is more all-around.

But you get what I am saying, why would you take Nash over Rip?

Because he gets the offense going, is an excellent passer, influences the team greatly, and improves teammates.

Same is the case with KJ, I understand Greer is a better playmaker than Rip, but KJ is a better scorer than Nash, so that cancels out.



KJ really is on another level or 2 higher than Greer.

I don't think Rip and Hal is a good comparison.

Also while reading up on Hal, I found this:


[QUOTE]But in his first season Greer already showed the skills that would eventually make him a star: a deadly jump shot, quick penetrations to the basket, and tenacious defense. He came off the bench for 11.1 ppgin 1958-59, shooting .454 from the field and .778 from the line. His field-goal percentage was the fourth-highest mark in the NBA that year.[/QUOTE]
Goin' by this, he apparently he was one of the top FG% shooters of his era. He was top 10 three times, (more then KJ as he was never top 10 period).


It also seems he penetrated to the basket more then we thought he did. That should erase the Hamilton comparisons. It does talk about his deadly jump shot (maybe were the Rip comparison comes from).


It also states he was a tenacious defender.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I don't think Rip and Hal is a good comparison.

Also while reading up on Hal, I found this:



Goin' by this, he apparently he was one of the top FG% shooters of his era. He was top 10 three times, (more then KJ as he was never top 10 period).


It also seems he penetrated to the basket more then we thought he did. That should erase the Hamilton comparisons. It does talk about his deadly jump shot (maybe were the Rip comparison comes from).


It also states he was a tenacious defender.[/QUOTE]

You know, I was thinking with his FT attempts so high, he had to go in quite some...


Well back then Centers shot 40%, and Centers and Guards shot around the same. Today, you know that isn't true so its tough for a guard to finish high.


And starting in the 60s, when Big Men even became more important with guys like Chamberlain and Russell dominating, Greer never finished high in the FG% category.


But either way, even if you adjust Greer's FG% and make it a little higher, I would still take Kevin Johnson's scoring ability. Becaue he really was "unstoppable" at his Peak. If you guarded him tight, he would go right by you because he was so quick. If you gave him room, he would shoot the jumper on you. And in the playoffs he really showed how good he really was.
Scoring multiple 40pt games. And he still has the FG% advantage, which I think is enough to give him the overall edge, along with his "ability" which you had to see in his peak. But if you want, we can call scoring even.


But passing/playmaking is the biggest edge for Kevin Johnson. Magic, Stockton, and Cousy are the only passers/playmakers I can say are above KJ. Players like Nash are on par in terms of passing/playmaking with Kevin Johnson. All his teammates had career numbers while playing with him, and he has improved all of them. Not only that, the offense fails without him, and rises with him. These things are only what All-Time greats are supposed to do.

As for defense, Greer might've been solid there too, he was an All-Arounder, but KJ was also a solid to good defender. Not a lot of size, but was very quick.



The overall advantage still goes to Kevin Johnson. He was being compared to Magic Johnson by some in his Peak, and was considered better than Isiah Thomas. He also outperformed John Stockton routinely in his Peak, while Stockton was also in his peak. As you can see, KJ was "up" there. Greer, I don't think he was ever close to the Big O or West.



KJ was just a far too superior passer/playmaker vs. Greer. His teams had a high number of success and so did his teammates when they played with KJ. That really seperates them.

I'd still have to say Greer was the better scorer. He was top 10 in points 8 times compared to KJ's zero and finished top 5 one season with over 24.


Greer also made his teammates better as he played a major role in the 67 76ers team. KJ was the better playmaker though.


Also Hal Greer won more then KJ did. His teams made the Eastern conference finals 5 times (losing to Boston all 5) and won the title in 67. He made the playoffs all but his last two seasons when he wasn't an important factor.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I'd still have to say Greer was the better scorer. He was top 10 in points 8 times compared to KJ's zero and finished top 5 one season with over 24.


Greer also made his teammates better as he played a major role in the 67 76ers team. KJ was the better playmaker though.


Also Hal Greer won more then KJ did. His teams made the Eastern conference finals 5 times (losing to Boston all 5) and won the title in 67. He made the playoffs all but his last two seasons when he wasn't an important factor.[/QUOTE]

Well then again, who was Greer's great competetion besides Oscar and West. He played in a weaker era. Sam Jones was the 4th best perimeter player of that era.

KJ played in maybe the toughest era, with Magic and Jordan both at their best. And Stockton, Drexler, Wilkins, Mullins, Hardaway, and many more great perimeter players back then.
And once again, even though Greer scored more, KJ still had higher %s.



How did Greer make his teammates better? KJ sure did.


Take 1 example, Tom Chambers:

1988: 44.8% 20.4ppg
Joins KJ
1989: 47.1% 25.7ppg
1990: 50.1% 27.2ppg


As you can see, his numbers went right up with KJ.

This is even a quote from Tom Chambers:

[B][I]In fact, Tom Chambers once called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," at Chambers' own Ring of Honor ceremony in 1999[/I][/B]



Also another example is Charles Barkley. When did Barkley win his MVP? When did he have his best season? Right when he played with Kevin Johnson. Kevin Johnson "really" improved his teammates. Its becaue he was a real leader. Something that only the greats are supposed to do. Greer did NOT improve his teammates on the level of Kevin Johnson.



KJ's 4 year run was one of the best in history. From 1989-1992, K.J. averaged 21.2 points, 11.1 assists, a .500 field goal percentage. How many in history have put those kind of numbers in NBA History? Magic Johnson is probably the only one EVER to do that. Oscar comes close. You listening, Magic, and Oscar, those are the players to do what KJ did. How many players have put 20/10 3 years in a row? Isiah Thomas and Oscar Roberstson are the only ones. How many players have put up 20/10/50% seasons, Magic and KJ are the only ones, and they both did it twice, with KJ missing a 3rd time by .001%.

You realize, that for a PG, scoring, and passing are the 2 most important categories. For normal players, its probably scoring and defense, but for a PG its scoring/passing. KJ and Magic are the only 2 combine both at a high efficient level of 20/10/50%.

I can name you countless amount of players who have put Greer type numbers. McGrady, Pierce, Wilkins, Drexler, Kobe, English, and more. Many have. While, for KJ, only players like Magic have put his numbers up.

And its just not the 4 year peak, you can beyond and look at the 9 years of KJ's prime. Putting up near 20/10/50% there as well. Only Magic, and Oscar are close to that mark over a 9 year period. Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson are the only ones. They are the only other 2 to combine scoring efficiently and well with excellent passing.



Really, Greer was never on the level of Kevin Johnson. And I have shown why. The things Kevin Johnson did, only players like Magic and Oscar can match up to. The things Greer did, MANY players can match up to.

Not only that, KJ improved teammates, and ran offenses. He, as the number one player on his team, defeeated Magic, and took his team to 2 straight WCF in a tougher Era.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]Well then again, who was Greer's great competetion besides Oscar and West. He played in a weaker era. Sam Jones was the 4th best perimeter player of that era.

KJ played in maybe the toughest era, with Magic and Jordan both at their best. And Stockton, Drexler, Wilkins, Mullins, Hardaway, and many more great perimeter players back then.
And once again, even though Greer scored more, KJ still had higher %s.



How did Greer make his teammates better? KJ sure did.


Take 1 example, Tom Chambers:

1988: 44.8% 20.4ppg
Joins KJ
1989: 47.1% 25.7ppg
1990: 50.1% 27.2ppg


As you can see, his numbers went right up with KJ.

This is even a quote from Tom Chambers:

[B][I]In fact, Tom Chambers once called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," at Chambers' own Ring of Honor ceremony in 1999[/I][/B]



Also another example is Charles Barkley. When did Barkley win his MVP? When did he have his best season? Right when he played with Kevin Johnson. Kevin Johnson "really" improved his teammates. Its becaue he was a real leader. Something that only the greats are supposed to do. Greer did NOT improve his teammates on the level of Kevin Johnson.



KJ's 4 year run was one of the best in history. From 1989-1992, K.J. averaged 21.2 points, 11.1 assists, a .500 field goal percentage. How many in history have put those kind of numbers in NBA History? Magic Johnson is probably the only one EVER to do that. Oscar comes close. You listening, Magic, and Oscar, those are the players to do what KJ did. How many players have put 20/10 3 years in a row? Isiah Thomas and Oscar Roberstson are the only ones. How many players have put up 20/10/50% seasons, Magic and KJ are the only ones, and they both did it twice, with KJ missing a 3rd time by .001%.

You realize, that for a PG, scoring, and passing are the 2 most important categories. For normal players, its probably scoring and defense, but for a PG its scoring/passing. KJ and Magic are the only 2 combine both at a high efficient level of 20/10/50%.

I can name you countless amount of players who have put Greer type numbers. McGrady, Pierce, Wilkins, Drexler, Kobe, English, and more. Many have. While, for KJ, only players like Magic have put his numbers up.

And its just not the 4 year peak, you can beyond and look at the 9 years of KJ's prime. Putting up near 20/10/50% there as well. Only Magic, and Oscar are close to that mark over a 9 year period. Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson are the only ones. They are the only other 2 to combine scoring efficiently and well with excellent passing.



Really, Greer was never on the level of Kevin Johnson. And I have shown why. The things Kevin Johnson did, only players like Magic and Oscar can match up to. The things Greer did, MANY players can match up to.

Not only that, KJ improved teammates, and ran offenses. He, as the number one player on his team, defeeated Magic, and took his team to 2 straight WCF in a tougher Era.[/QUOTE]
Oscar and West wasn't his only comp. He had Cousy for about 4 seasons (just as KJ had Magic), Elgin Baylor, Johnny Green, Dave Bing, Havlicek, Lenny Wilkens, Gail Goodrich, "Super" Lou Hudson, Cliff Hagan, Pearl Monroe, Clyde Frazer and others, (most are Hall of Famers)


Was it just KJ who made them better (Chambers and Chuck) or was it the team (Phoenix) they went to. It's not like Charles went to a bad franchise KJ was playing on they magically made the finals once he came.


So KJ being in elite company with Magic and Oscar make him a top 25-40 player ever? Walt Bellamy is one of only 3 players to average over 31 and 19 during a season, does that make him a top 20 player along side Elgin and Wilt. Alex English is the top scorer of the 80's but what does that mean, nothing really as he wasn't even a top 5 player of the decade.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Oscar and West wasn't his only comp. He had Cousy for about 4 seasons (just as KJ had Magic), Elgin Baylor, Johnny Green, Dave Bing, Havlicek, Lenny Wilkens, Gail Goodrich, "Super" Lou Hudson, Cliff Hagan, Pearl Monroe, Clyde Frazer and others, (most are Hall of Famers)


Was it just KJ who made them better (Chambers and Chuck) or was it the team (Phoenix) they went to. It's not like Charles went to a bad franchise KJ was playing on they magically made the finals once he came.


So KJ being in elite company with Magic and Oscar make him a top 25-40 player ever? Walt Bellamy is one of only 3 players to average over 31 and 19 during a season, does that make him a top 20 player along side Elgin and Wilt. Alex English is the top scorer of the 80's but what does that mean, nothing really as he wasn't even a top 5 player of the decade.[/QUOTE]

1. Like I said, not all those players played with Greer's prime. Frazier was in the 70s, same with Monroe, Greer was already done before them....I don't know why you keep mentioning them


2. Of course it was KJ that improved them. It wasn't a coincidence that right when they met KJ they all hit their peaks. And come on, they even SAID KJ made them the player they were. What more do you want?

3. Bellamny, how many years did he do that? 1 year, thats what I thought. KJ did it for a [B]9 year span[/B], and only Magic and Oscar have met that statline. Not 1 year.

Not only that, it wasn't "any old" categories he did it in. Like I said, he did it with the most important categories for a PG. Scoring, and doing it efficiently, and passing. He met Magic and Oscar in the most important categories for a PG. And he met them for a 9 year Span, not just 1 year, how was Bellamy for 9 years?


To continue on, I thought this was KJ vs. Greer. Now its, "is this what makes KJ 25-40". At least your realizing, Greer was on a level less.



And to add more, not only was KJ able to match Magic and Oscar on the most important things for a PG, he was able to do other things that only legends and the very best are able to do. Improve teammates, have a strong offense, get many win seasons, and so on.


:applause:
He is trully underrated, and all great things he has done are forgotten. I mean, back in the day they did compare him to Magic Johnson, both players put similar stats, and both teams won around the same amount of games, KJ even knocked out Magic's team in 1990 I believe. He was better than Stockton in his peak, and Stockton was at his peak too, and now these days Stockton is considered better, and always was better. He was considered better than Isiah by a lot, at least ability/skillwise, but Isiah's titles always won the argument.

[QUOTE=Glove_20] He was better than Stockton in his peak, and Stockton was at his peak too, and now these days Stockton is considered better, and always was better.[/QUOTE]

I though Stockton was as good at the time, and now...

It was arguable....

Kevin was more of a scorer, and neglected to get his team involved some of the time. Great player and all... Fantastic offensive game for a guard, while still being able to get guys involved, but sometimes he got into ballhog mode.

I think you are starting to over-rate him a bit.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]1. Like I said, not all those players played with Greer's prime. Frazier was in the 70s, same with Monroe, Greer was already done before them....I don't know why you keep mentioning them


2. Of course it was KJ that improved them. It wasn't a coincidence that right when they met KJ they all hit their peaks. And come on, they even SAID KJ made them the player they were. What more do you want?

3. Bellamny, how many years did he do that? 1 year, thats what I thought. KJ did it for a [B]9 year span[/B], and only Magic and Oscar have met that statline. Not 1 year.

Not only that, it wasn't "any old" categories he did it in. Like I said, he did it with the most important categories for a PG. Scoring, and doing it efficiently, and passing. He met Magic and Oscar in the most important categories for a PG. And he met them for a 9 year Span, not just 1 year, how was Bellamy for 9 years?


To continue on, I thought this was KJ vs. Greer. Now its, "is this what makes KJ 25-40". At least your realizing, Greer was on a level less.



And to add more, not only was KJ able to match Magic and Oscar on the most important things for a PG, he was able to do other things that only legends and the very best are able to do. Improve teammates, have a strong offense, get many win seasons, and so on.


:applause:
He is trully underrated, and all great things he has done are forgotten. I mean, back in the day they did compare him to Magic Johnson, both players put similar stats, and both teams won around the same amount of games, KJ even knocked out Magic's team in 1990 I believe. He was better than Stockton in his peak, and Stockton was at his peak too, and now these days Stockton is considered better, and always was better. He was considered better than Isiah by a lot, at least ability/skillwise, but Isiah's titles always won the argument.[/QUOTE]
Monroe and Frazier were both drafted oin 67 so they played in Greers peak/prime for about 3 seasons as Greer was making All-Star teams untuil 1970.


Never said KJ didn't have a role in improving.


Well Bellamy over a span of four season put up over 27 ppg, 17 boards and 51%FG, not many over four years have done that, just Chamberlain I believe. That shouldn't make Walt Bellamy any better then he was. Hell, if wwe look hard enough we could find many players having similar stats over a long period time compared to other greats, that doesn't mean they're on that greats level or right below.


I'm pretty sure a not so great legend like a Spencer Haywood or someone put up some stats that are comparable with a Bob Pettit, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon or something over a 5 year stretch but that doesn't mean that Spencer is on those players levels?


As I said many times, I'm with you on KJ being underrated but I think you are slightly overrating him.

[QUOTE=Chalkmaze]I though Stockton was as good at the time, and now...[/QUOTE]
They were about even at their Peaks...However, KJ domianted Stockton head to head...Just like Payton dominated Stockton defensively, KJ dominated Stockton offensively....And thats why I'd give the edge to KJ, he always got the better of Stockton Head to HEad