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[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945093]DBPM is the worst stat. Creator of the stat even admits it. Google it, it’s in writing on basketball reference.[/QUOTE]
All defensive advanced stats have flaws, tpols was the one who brought up advanced defensive metrics for Bosh's case. Toronto Bosh and defense do not go hand in hand.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14945095]All defensive advanced stats have flaws, tpols was the one who brought up advanced defensive metrics for Bosh's case. Toronto Bosh and defense do not go hand in hand.[/QUOTE]
That’s fair I’m just giving you a heads up that it is a shitty stat.
[QUOTE] Box Plus/Minus is a very good offensive metric, but it struggles some with defense. As mentioned before, when all you have is a box score, you cannot estimate defense very well. Not including minutes per game in the regression also hampers the accuracy of the defensive estimates. In other words--take DBPM with a spoonful of salt.[/QUOTE]
source: [url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html[/url]
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945092]That’s a whole lotta words to dance around the fact that your criticisms with bosh aren’t consistent with other dudes you talk about.
You can say I have the agenda when you are obviously projecting.
Didn’t you call Bosh Antonio McDyess a few posts ago? You are gonna try to clutch your pearls and act like 3ball and I are trolls and come with this nonsense? Stop being a f.aggot.[/QUOTE]
Nothing to project about. It’s the same thing I’ve been consistently saying about the exact same players for 18 years. You could pull my text on Bosh word for word from 15 to 18 years ago and slide them in with shit I said last year and not tell them apart. I don’t need to bullshit anybody. I don’t need to come with a bunch of takes I don’t actually believe.
Bosh did absolutely nothing on a basketball court to the distinguish himself as some other level from any of the people I mentioned. Dice could shoot. He was more athletic than Bosch. He was a tougher player inside and a better rebounder. He was a better defender than Boswell’s in Toronto. I would say Bosh developed more consistent range and was a better triple threat player, but I’ll tell you exactly what I said 18 years ago. There isn’t enough of a difference between what Chris Bosh does and those other players do to bother making a different level.
We don’t need 37 levels. If your team has prime dice, and you trade him for prime Bosh, you haven’t filled any kind of hole. You haven’t stepped up the significance of your franchise. You’re gonna stay whatever you already were. Might as well be trading Boozer for Zach Randolph. You can have a preference, but whatever difference there is between the two doesn’t matter.
[QUOTE]Bosh's defensive box plus/minus was in the negative throughout his 7 years in Toronto and the Raptors had the worst defense in the NBA in 2010 with Bosh.
[/QUOTE]
See this is where you need to pay attention to the debate and not hop in without reading like a fool. Reading is fundamental.
Kblaze was listing guys like Lavine or Beal types who put up huge statlines on great efficiency as a comparison to Chris Bosh. Chris Bosh's defense however was way better than theirs. He was in the big time positive when it came to his ORTG and DRTG splits differential. Just because Bosh wasn't KG or Duncan doesn't mean he was a bad defender. It's a spectrum. Kind of like what's going on with your brain.
I understand people dismissing players who put up big stat lines but then have terrible defensive metrics where it's statistically proven they were giving up more than they produced. The metrics don't paint that picture for Chris Bosh. They don't paint it for Pau. And they don't paint it for Pippen. These were all great players. One is simply ranked way higher because he played with the GOAT on great teams while the other two for more than half their primes didn't.
Were trying to educate you on the impact of the winning spotlight effect.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14945100]Nothing to project about. It’s the same thing I’ve been consistently saying about the exact same players for 18 years. You could pull my text on Bosh word for word from 15 to 18 years ago and slide them in with shit I said last year and not tell them apart. I don’t need to bullshit anybody. I don’t need to come with a bunch of takes I don’t actually believe.
Bosh did absolutely nothing on a basketball court to the distinguish himself as some other level from any of the people I mentioned. Dice could shoot. He was more athletic than Bosch. He was a tougher player inside and a better rebounder. He was a better defender than Boswell’s in Toronto. I would say Bosh developed more consistent range and was a better triple threat player, but I’ll tell you exactly what I said 18 years ago. There isn’t enough of a difference between what Chris Bosh does and those other players do to bother making a different level.
We don’t need 37 levels. If your team has prime dice, and you trade him for prime Bosh, you haven’t filled any kind of hole. You haven’t stepped up the significance of your franchise. You’re gonna stay whatever you already were. Might as well be trading Boozer for Zach Randolph. You can have a preference, but whatever difference there is between the two doesn’t matter.[/QUOTE]
comparing him to mcdyess is disrespectful
i’ve seen you simp for guys who never won a ring and how it’s so unfair they get criticism for things they can’t control, and that is why lebron made a super team, it’s ring counting fans, blah blah blah
now you come around and shit on bosh for not setting the world on fire with jose calderon in toronto
you are full of shit
[QUOTE=tpols;14945102]See this is where you need to pay attention to the debate and not hop in without reading like a fool. Reading is fundamental.
Kblaze was listing guys like Lavine or Beal types who put up huge statlines on great efficiency as a comparison to Chris Bosh. Chris Bosh's defense however was way better than theirs. He was in the big time positive when it came to his ORTG and DRTG splits differential. Just because Bosh wasn't KG or Duncan doesn't mean he was a bad defender. It's a spectrum. Kind of like what's going on with your brain.
I understand people dismissing players who put up big stat lines but then have terrible defensive metrics where it's statistically proven they were giving up more than they produced. The metrics don't paint that picture for Chris Bosh. They don't paint it for Pau. And they don't paint it for Pippen. These were all great players. One is simply ranked way higher because he played with the GOAT on great teams while the other two for more than half their primes didn't.
Were trying to educate you on the impact of the winning spotlight effect.[/QUOTE]
I actually watched Toronto Bosh while you were still in middle school, nothing about his defense stood out. He was a poor post defender mainly because he was pretty skinny, and most of the time the effort simply wasn't there mainly because he was the offense of Toronto. He gave you some rim protection because of his length, but he was always known as the skinny guy who didn't like to defend the post.
I remember Shaq calling Bosh soft after a game in 2009 I believe after he dropped 45 on him.
[url]https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2009/3/2/18595443/shaquille-o-neal-calls-chris-bosh-the-rupaul-of-big-men[/url]
[QUOTE=tpols;14945084]Zach lavine did have a better offensive season than Pippen ever did when he averaged 27/5/5 on elite efficiency. The problem is dude doesn't play defense. His splits for ORTG and DRTG are literally neutral and even negative at times... meaning he gives up just as many buckets as he makes.
That simply wasn't the case with Chris Bosh. His offensive efficiency and production was similar to Lavine, but his defensive metrics were waaay better. Bosh has big time positive splits.
I know you don't care about real measurable metrics and data, and rely rather on how you [I]feeel[/I]... but those are just the facts. Bosh produced far more buckets than he gave up. And his prime splits and production are similar to Pippen if not better. Of course he played most of his prime with bums while Scottie played with Michael ****ing Jordan. And there-in lies the reason one is considered way better ranked despite not really being all that much better @ all. The winning spotlight.
Pau was just as good as Pippen as well but spent a huge chunk of his prime with mediocre at best help. If he played with Kobe for over a decade and won 5 rings with him he'd see a massive bump in his GOAT ranking.[/QUOTE]
I don’t feel a need for another 300 obvious example argument about why numbers don’t necessarily make two players equal even in the same league…. And definitely don’t across eras. Is the kind of thing everyone knows what has to selectively ignore to make points. I’ll just say I’ve been reading a lot of really old raptors discussions today. It’s funny how much worse they apparently got in retrospect when people need to act like Bosh was carrying garbage.
I found several arguments with me trying to explain why I didn’t think Jose Calderon should be an All Star while the efficiency whores on here we’re talking about me using the eye test and what I “feel” just like you.
Giving me metrics and numbers comparing his shooting to people like Jason Kidd. And as usual, my response was exactly exactly what it would be today.
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And this means what to me?
Jose calderon has become oof those "Look at the numbers!" players who gets a following beyond his talents ability to justify. He has a good combo of the things it takes to get such a following.
He started as a no name so people who like him can claim they knew he was great from the jump. Hes got a high assist/turnover ratio. He shoots well from the field.
All good things. But they dont make anyone dominant. Got people talking about his production as legendary. As if 50/40/90 makes him better than a guy like Isiah Thomas or something. Its just a string of stats put together because they look nice. There are hall of famers who never shot near 50%. There have been points better than Calderon who didnt shoot 40% at the time. If you shoot 50/40/90 and 200 people who didnt do it were better than you...what does it even matter? Gilbert Arenas is the only 200 threes 700 free throws player ever. That really factor into anyones rankings? Its just trivia. A question for Canadian Jeopardy.
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apparently, I just hated all of Canada because I didn’t think the Raptors had multiple All-Stars.
And that wasn’t even Jose best season. He did 13/9 on 50/41/98 the season after that.
And considering defense, he wasn’t even the second best player on the team at the time. You should’ve seen the old Raptors versus Knicks and Celtics fan arguments. Net fans were around there a bit as well.
Between Calderon and TJ Ford before him? A lot of people weren’t sure who was making those teams play well when they did. There was a whole TJ Ford contingent on my ass telling me he was leading the Raptors to the playoffs because of the lingering Kirk Hinrich TJ Ford debate from their rookie season.
always funny to me the way shit changes in retrospect.
Bosh couldn’t defend shaq well so therefore he was a bad defender?
Dope logic.
Again... nobody said Bosh was KG or Tim Duncan. Yes his post defense wasn't great especially against guys who had 100 lbs on him... doesn't take PHD in physics to figure that out... but his versatility and agility and footspeed guarding the perimeter as an almost 7 footer was elite. And his defensive metrics were way better than all of the stars we've seen who drop 25 and give up 30 on the other end like... Lavine or Beal. That's the point. He was in the positive and they weren't. So that comparison had to get shut down.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945109]Bosh couldn’t defend shaq well so therefore he was a bad defender?
Dope logic.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945109]Bosh couldn’t defend shaq well so therefore he was a bad defender?
Dope logic.[/QUOTE]
Shaq was like 37 when he dropped 45 on Toronto. It was the most points he scored that entire season.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14945113]Shaq was like 37 when he dropped 45 on Toronto. It was the most points he scored that entire season.[/QUOTE]
He’s gonna call you short and a slur soon if you keep bullying him.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14945115]He’s gonna call you short and a slur soon if you keep bullying him.[/QUOTE]
Go away. The adults are speaking.
Jose Calderon was actually pretty nice for a few years in Toronto. Offensively he was quite good actually for a pass first PG. Ultra efficient for the era. I watched a lot of these games live, I'm from Canada and we get all Toronto games on local tv.
Bosh was not a good defender back then either. You know why he became an excellent defender with Miami? Because he wasn't relied upon as the #1 or #2 option and he was in a much different defensive culture. It's the same reason Paul Peirce's defense improved when KG and Thibs came over. The defensive antennas go up and effort goes up when everyone is being held accountable.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945103]comparing him to mcdyess is disrespectful
i’ve seen you simp for guys who never won a ring and how it’s so unfair they get criticism for things they can’t control, and that is why lebron made a super team, it’s ring counting fans, blah blah blah
now you come around and shit on bosh for not setting the world on fire with jose calderon in toronto
you are full of shit[/QUOTE]
he was getting compared to people like Caron Butler and Carlos boozer at the time. Boozer was all NBA over Chris Bosh. In what World is someone ranked behind Carlos boozer unreasonable to compare to Antonio? Do you remember him before his knee injury?
I was doing exactly what you’re talking about when you say I defended people on bad teams when I had Paul Gasol over Chris Bosh. His team won 22 games and I had him firmly ahead of Bosh. You just keep saying the same shit over when the reason I was unimpressed was laid out before he was even established as a loser. I said the same thing about Bosh winning and losing. Feels like you should be able to grasp what that means. Just wasn’t impressed by his game. I’ve been unimpressed by winners and impressed by losers. In this case, there is absolutely no question. I was unimpressed by him both ways so you really have no argument.
Some players being great when they lose, doesn’t mean all people who lose are. And some people being able to win while not doing very much doesn’t mean all winners backed into it. Steph Curry or Wilt Chamberlain missing the playoffs On a bad team is not the same as Jerry Stackhouse missing the playoffs on a bad team just because they all scored 30 a game doing it. It’s always case by case and that is too obvious for me to believe you don’t know it.
though the more you stick to your guns on some of these issues the more I’m worried I could be giving you too much credit.