Ben Wallace and Joakim Noah separated in locker room...at half time

[QUOTE=ChiBulls7]Just to add to the bulls problems. Wonderful.
Quick photoshop for ya rawimpact
[IMG]http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/JakeN7/haha.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

That's great haha! :applause:

[QUOTE=boozehound]nice excuses. so the "professional" athletes who are all well past their rookie season on the bulls see big ben sucking it up and say hey why dont I suck it up as well? Of course hes an easy scapegoat, he makes retarded money and is an undersized hustle guy past his prime. To blame all the bulls problems on him is obviously a stupid and childish way to approach it.[/QUOTE]

then you just don't know basketball or the concept of a leader.

[QUOTE=JPR]Noah isn't bringing the team down one iota. it all stems from big bum. he is what has brought this team down and continues to do so. all noah is doing is bringing down Big Bum's fraudulent team and i'm glad that he is doing so. noah is a bad ass rookie. he doesn't get enough PT but if he did, he could easily get a double double every night plus you gotta love Noah's battle crys. right now, this team just isn't trying very hard because they look at Big Bum and do what he is doing. that's the whole problem and that's why Big Bum is a cancer. there's nothing wrong wtih the other guys when you look at the magnitude of ****edupness that is Ben Wallace.[/QUOTE]

While the +/- stat agrees with you that Noah is outplaying Wallace, it seems that Gordon and Hinrich are a bigger problem on the court this season. If you want to place blame, I can assure you it doesn't all stem from Wallace:

[url]http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo/lenovo_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22007&split=9&team=Bulls[/url]

However, I think Noah has been the biggest off-the-court problem for them this season, and based on this thread there are quite a few that agree with me.

[QUOTE=JPR]then you just don't know basketball or the concept of a leader.[/QUOTE]

Anyone who understands that there are 5 teammates on the court at once can understand that the problems are more than Wallace.

Anyone who has noticed that Noah has conflicted with both his coach and teammate understands that Noah is the problem here. Wallace isn't fighting with anyone else, and nobody on the Bulls is speaking up for Wallace to sit out games. Can't say that for Noah.

[QUOTE=Patrick27]While the +/- stat agrees with you that Noah is outplaying Wallace, it seems that Gordon and Hinrich are a bigger problem on the court this season. If you want to place blame, I can assure you it doesn't all stem from Wallace:

[url]http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo/lenovo_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22007&split=9&team=Bulls[/url]

However, I think Noah has been the biggest off-the-court problem for them this season, and based on this thread there are quite a few that agree with me.[/QUOTE]
are you sure? Im getting[URL="http://www.nba.com/playerfile/joakim_noah/index.html"]noah at +7.10[/URL] and [URL="http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ben_wallace/"]wallace at +12.91[/URL] for the EFF stat.

[QUOTE=JPR]then you just don't know basketball or the concept of a leader.[/QUOTE]
newsflash buddy. Ben has NEVER been a leader. if your front office thought thats what they were getting from him, then they are as stupid as the homer fans littering this thread. He quit on saunders during the post-season right before you gave him the contract. What in the world ever made you think hed be a leader on the team? He can be a lockerroom enforcer type, but he was never a leader

[QUOTE=boozehound]are you sure? Im getting[URL="http://www.nba.com/playerfile/joakim_noah/index.html"]noah at +7.10[/URL] and [URL="http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ben_wallace/"]wallace at +12.91[/URL] for the EFF stat.[/QUOTE]

Hmm... Don't see where you're getting that number. My common sense is telling me that Wallace hasn't been winning games this season.

My link is based on individual game +/- for this whole season. Maybe yours is a different timeframe?

[QUOTE=Patrick27]Hmm... Don't see where you're getting that number. My common sense is telling me that Wallace hasn't been winning games this season.

My link is based on individual game +/- for this whole season. Maybe yours is a different timeframe?[/QUOTE]
yeah, I dont really know. Its the eff stat from the nba players page (in the little stat box to the right of the picture). Supposed to be like PER maybe? I havent looked at the game +/-

the idea is ben wallace can lead by example like he did with the Pistons when he won a ring. blaming the young bulls and not ben wallace is like blaming soldiers on a battlefield who get ambushed and killed because their general led them there. ben wallace isn't doing anything but collecting checks. he is a multiple defensive player of the year award winner, all star, and world champion. he has a resume and accolades like nobody on the Bulls roster and like nobody in the NBA. by ben wallace, the veteran leader, giving 20% it naturally rubs off on the other players.

you haters can say what you want but the chicago papers have it right just like i do. big bum is a joke and the reason as to why this team is 2 games outside of a playoff spot instead of a top 4 seed. 90% of bull fans want ben wallace gone. there's a reason for that and i just told you what it is. bull fans like the other players on the roster because they are young and have shown progress unlike the old fart big bum.

[QUOTE=JPR]the idea is ben wallace can lead by example like he did with the Pistons when he won a ring. blaming the young bulls and not ben wallace is like blaming soldiers on a battlefield who get ambushed and killed because their general led them there. ben wallace isn't doing anything but collecting checks. he is a multiple defensive player of the year award winner, all star, and world champion. he has a resume and accolades like nobody on the Bulls roster and like nobody in the NBA. by ben wallace, the veteran leader, giving 20% it naturally rubs off on the other players.

you haters can say what you want but the chicago papers have it right just like i do. big bum is a joke and the reason as to why this team is 2 games outside of a playoff spot instead of a top 4 seed. 90% of bull fans want ben wallace gone. there's a reason for that and i just told you what it is. bull fans like the other players on the roster because they are young and have shown progress unlike the old fart big bum.[/QUOTE]

Are you hating on Shaq for killing the Heat too? He's old. Miami and Chicago are paying for prior results. Don't blame the players because they aged, blame your front office for expecting them to turn back the clock.

[SIZE="7"]15,500,000 4ppg 8rpg 33%FG 47%ft 34 minutes per game[/SIZE]

Can't be stressed enough, and Ben has been a diva since he got to Chicago. Just because he is a vet and the one initiating meetings to have Noah's suspension extended doesn't mean he can't be in the wrong. Admitting you gave up on your last coach while asking to have him fired, pushing to get other teammates disciplined, laughing and playing pattycakes on the bench while down 30 in a game you got 4/3 in, hardly a shining example of leadership.

[QUOTE=DatZNasty]Can't be stressed enough, and Ben has been a diva since he got to Chicago. Just because he is a vet and the one initiating meetings to have Noah's suspension extended doesn't mean he can't be in the wrong. Admitting you gave up on your last coach while asking to have him fired, pushing to get other teammates disciplined, laughing and playing pattycakes on the bench while down 30 in a game you got 4/3 in, hardly a shining example of leadership.[/QUOTE]

Nobody's arguing that he's a good leader. Noah and Wallace are both terrible leaders. Neither one should even pretend to be. The problem is, while Wallace can be successful as a non-leader, I don't think Noah will ever listen to anybody except himself.

Bulls signing Ben Wallace was one of the biggest mistakes in their franchise history.