A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?

[QUOTE]So you're saying MJ was given more superstar calls as a rookie than he was in his 37 ppg season?[/QUOTE]
i'm saying he was given the same superstar treatment in '85 that he was getting for the rest of his career
[QUOTE]I'm convinced Jordan is the best ever and I'll state several dozen reasons if anyone asks me to back up that statement. However I don't want to act like an ******* and say "my opinion is 100% right and everyone who disagrees is wrong"[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: each to their own
[QUOTE]Hill only slightly better statistically?

Grant Hill 25.8 ppg>>> Kobe Bryant 22.5 ppg
Grant Hill 6.6 rpg> Kobe Bryant 6.3 rpg
Grant Hill 5.2 apg> Kobe Bryant 4.9 apg
Grant Hill 48.9 FG%>> 46.8 FG%
Grant Hill 34.7 3P%> 31.9 3P%[/QUOTE]
kobe bryant 1.6spg>>>grant hill 1.4spg
kobe bryant 0.9bpg>>>grant hill 0.6bpg
kobe bryant 2.8tpg>>>grant hill 3.2tpg
[QUOTE]Phoenix also had a lot of injuries that year. Kidd was the best player on his team and he didn't have the luxuary of playing with the man who you even said had the best season ever.[/QUOTE]
:sleeping top 6 small forward, top 5 shooting guard, top 2 point guard, sixth man of the year award winner, 2 team members on the all defense second team = 49 wins and first round exit? that roster should be good enough to do more damage than that..even with injuries
[QUOTE]I don't care what he did in comparison to 1998. Malone averaged over 25 ppg as the best player on a team that won 55 games. That is better than what Kobe did.[/QUOTE]
:lol
[QUOTE]I watch games and have for years. I don't hold Kobe's wins against Vince because Kobe was by far the second option on his team and the Lakers went 12-4 in the games he missed.[/QUOTE]
the lakers were 54-11 with kobe+shaq. the lakers don't win 67 games and a championship without kobe.
[QUOTE]The stats were close, Eddie Jones was the best player on his team and he played clearly better defense than Bryant.[/QUOTE]
:lol how did he clearly play better defense than bryant?
[QUOTE]How does that supporting cast compare to Kobe's team which included the man who you said played better than anyone has ever played[/QUOTE]
again, iverson wouldn't want any other supporting cast than the one he had - top five center, a solid offensive player (kukoc), strong defenders and team oriented players (lynch, hill, snow), and solid guys off the bench (mckie, geiger)
[QUOTE]Glen Rice a guy who was 2 years removed from averaging 20 ppg and just 3 years removed from a 27 ppg season [/QUOTE]
this really sounds pathetic. some team should sign kareem today..he'd be a huge contributer consider he is just 23 years removed from a 22/8 year and only 36 years removed from a 35/17 season
[QUOTE]:roll: [/QUOTE]
:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE]The best record is due to the man who you said played better than anyone has ever played as is the championship.[/QUOTE]
no kobe = no best record

[QUOTE=Shep]i'm saying he was given the same superstar treatment in '85 that he was getting for the rest of his career[/QUOTE]

That is ridiculous. Jordan wasn't even the most hyped rookie in that draft class. So you are also saying rookie Jordan was better at getting to the line than 87 or 88 Jordan?

[QUOTE]kobe bryant 1.6spg>>>grant hill 1.4spg
kobe bryant 0.9bpg>>>grant hill 0.6bpg
kobe bryant 2.8tpg>>>grant hill 3.2tpg[/QUOTE]

Yeah because slight advantages in steals, blocks, and turnovers really make up for a big advantage in points, a slight advantage in assists, a slight advantage in rebounds, a large advantage in field goal % and a comfortable advantage in 3P%. Not to mention 8 more games played. :roll:

[QUOTE]:sleeping top 6 small forward, top 5 shooting guard, top 2 point guard, sixth man of the year award winner, 2 team members on the all defense second team = 49 wins and first round exit? that roster should be good enough to do more damage than that..even with injuries[/QUOTE]

Actually the team did do more damage than that. They won 53 games and advanced to the second round.

And that's with Penny missing 22 games, Kidd missing 15 games, Gugliotta missing 28 games and Shawn Marion missing 31 games.

[QUOTE]the lakers were 54-11 with kobe+shaq. the lakers don't win 67 games and a championship without kobe.[/QUOTE]

How do you know? They weren't doing badly without Kobe.

[QUOTE]:lol how did he clearly play better defense than bryant?[/QUOTE]

Did you even watch basketball back in 2000? There was a reason Eddie was 3rd in DPOY voting.

[QUOTE]again, iverson wouldn't want any other supporting cast than the one he had - top five center, a solid offensive player (kukoc), strong defenders and team oriented players (lynch, hill, snow), and solid guys off the bench (mckie, geiger)[/QUOTE]

Yeah but that still doesn't mean he had half as much talent around him as Kobe did. Iverson had to carry the scoring load.

[QUOTE]this really sounds pathetic. some team should sign kareem today..he'd be a huge contributer consider he is just 23 years removed from a 22/8 year and only 36 years removed from a 35/17 season[/QUOTE]

Hmmm so you're comparing 2 years to 23 years? :oldlol: Rice averaged 18 ppg in the 1999 season which was one of the lowest years for scoring and 16 ppg as the clear 3rd option in 2000 so I think if he was a 1st or second option he could still put up 20 ppg in 2000.

[QUOTE]no kobe = no best record[/QUOTE]

In the 16 games without Kobe they went 12-4. That is a .750 winning %. That is on pace for 61-62 wins in the regular season and no other team won 60 games that year so there is nothing to suggest they wouldn't have had the best record without Kobe.

I can't find that MJ commercial where at the very end it shows him walking on the court in what must have been middle school. Anyone find it on youtube? It's like home video of one of his games and then the commercial ends.

[QUOTE=Shep]yes, and i watched the games. jordan also shot more free throws than anyone else besided moses malone

jordan didn't end up being the best ever, would've been if he never retired the first time and won 1 more championship, but unfortunately for him he didn't. more contact/hard checking only started late 80's and into the 90's.

hill: 14th, mourning: 7th, kidd: 8th, malone: 9th, carter: 10th, mutombo: :roll: , finley: 16th

impossible to say. shaq at that point was in his peak, a peak that was greater than anyone's peak in nba history. glen rice would've got alot more touches without shaq there..probably would've been closer to his charlotte production, bryant would've been much better statistically aswell and i could see the lakers winning 45-50 games.

shaq was only the best player in the nba in 2000, and 2001, aswell as '97 and '98.

you said kobe shot better with shaq than without shaq, i gave the numbers that proved he shot better without shaq.

it gives the player with range alot more weapons on the offensive end, instead of sagging off your man you have to be up in his face as soon as he gets to 35 feet, it means that his defender can't help out in the post as easily and play off the ball defense as well either..it does have alot of bearing when discussing who was the better player offensively atleast.

you = shut up.
more physical defense didn't come into the league until the late 80's, and into the 90's. in the early part of this decade basketball was called more or less the same as it was in 1985, except for the fact that you got suspended less back then.

the emphasis was on outscoring your opponent, not stopping your opponent. these days and early on in this decade the emphasis has been on stopping your opponent, and better defense is the result..:lol and it was never ok to jack up a shot when in a 1 on 4 situation so stop guessing about how the game was played and go back and watch some tape[/QUOTE]
MJ goes to the hoop wayy more then Kobe.Kobe just started going to the rim hard like mj when he was in his like 6th year i think in 03.The guy was a chucker.I watched his whole career he likes to chuck.From 03 on he learned that if u drive more u get calls.Look at 06 he got alot of calls.Mj drived the ball like everytime.Mj has a rookie drivewd the ball 95% of the time.If u seen his earrrrly days has a rookie he would just drive close to the basket and stop and pop or just go to the basket and dunk over someone.you know that
l'j dunk where he holds the ball wayy up in the air with one hand dunking mj did that.MJ went to the rim like it freaking owed him something has a rookie.sometimes u thought he would lay it up and then he just dunks even tho people hit him in the air just watch [url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=i9bzrWTff5U[/url] LOL Look at LJ he learned it in his 2nd and 3rd year(well mostly because he couldn't make a jumper to save his life but still)

[QUOTE=Loki]Right. Because it's easier to score against double and triple teams than when you have a teammate commanding those double/triple teams, and it's easier to get assists passing to shooters than it is by driving and dumping it off for guaranteed dunks. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Why does it say "LOKI BANNED"????

[QUOTE=StoneCold]Wow..

It amazes just how [B]UNINFORMED[/B] U kobe homers [B]REALLY[/B] are when it comes to making these ABSURD comparisons to MJ. Half of U guys didn't even see MJ before the 1st titles & the other half of U guys, [B]BARELY[/B] saw him from 1996-98..and those [B]WEREN'T[/B] even his [B]PRIME[/B] years!

It's the [B]SAME[/B] 'ol story with U guys..Y'all try & rank & compare them based on your [B]UNINFORMED[/B] opinions, rather than what they've actually [B]DONE[/B] on the floor..

MJ's [B]"ROOKIE"[/B] season he had an [B]NBA Efficiency Rating (PER)[/B] of [B]29.24[/B], & [B]13.2[/B] [I][U]player wins[/U][/I]. He also [B]IMPROVED[/B] them by 10 wins & took 'em to the Playoffs, a place they hadn't [B]SEEN[/B] since 1981..

Kobe's 2006-07 season, he had an [B]NBA Efficiency Rating (PER)[/B] of [B]27.65[/B] and [B]11.2[/B] [I][U]player wins[/U][/I].

Well homers, how do U explain that? And U claim kobe's better?

[B]THAT'S A JOKE!![/B]

In the seasons [B]BEFORE[/B] Pippen & Co., he had a [I][U]combined[/U][/I] average of [B]33ppg 5apg 6rpg 2.74spg 1.26bpg 49 FG%.[/B]

Show me [U][B]ANY[/B][/U] season from kobe with better [B][U]OVERALL[/U][/B] Production than that?

MJ is the [B]ONLY[/B] player in [B]HISTORY[/B] to lead his team in [I][B]scoring, rebounding, assists & steals[/B][/I]..(4 out of 5 categories) & he did this as a [B]ROOKIE!![/B] Dr. J did it in the ABA, but never in the NBA. MJ was 4 blocks away from repeating this feat in 1989.

Ever see kobe do anything [B]REMOTELY[/B] close to that? Hell no & if U claim he has, you're a liar & the truth aint in ya..

And U got the [B]NERVE[/B] to call MJ [I]"selfish"[/I]? Are U serious?

Kobe has [B][I][U]53 games[/U][/I][/B] to date, with [B]NO ASSISTS![/B] MJ has only [B][I]"6" in 14 years of play[/I][/B], with the [B]1st[/B] game like occuring in 1997..that's [B]13 STRAIGHT years with at least "1" assist![/B]

What's kobe's excuse?

U kobe homers need to stop deluding yourselves & get real. Get off your false paradise of eden that's perched on the banks of [B][I]'Denial'[/I][/B] & snap back into reality..[/QUOTE]

/thread

the post from scottie pippen was amazing as were all the post for jordan i would have to say that the jordanaires beat the kobeites in this debate.

[QUOTE=Shaquille O'Neal]Why does it say "LOKI BANNED"????[/QUOTE]

:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE]/thread[/QUOTE]

Just a question: Did you care to check the validity of the facts and figures posted above?

Psileas, you a big fan of Clockwork Orange?
I find that movie very overrated. Maybe it's the english accent... :oldlol:

There is a general Kobe topic you know.

But for the sake of argument....

Now....just what is the question?
Would you rather have a young Jordan to build your team around for the future or do you want a prime Kobe Bryant on your team for rings now.

If thats the case....I'm gunna look in to the future and build with Jordan.

BUT

If the question was who was better between a rookie Jordan and a Prime Kobe....OF COURSE ITS PRIME KOBE.

If you disagree then you do not understand basketball.

Kobe h)mers....Jordan h)mers please give these dumb topics to a minimal and post this crap in the General Kobe topic please. :banghead:

But kudos to everyone though....ISH has been a better place to come since the boards are not really flooded with these same BS topics as much.

[QUOTE=StoneCold]Oh Really?

Let me repeat what I previously posted, in case U missed it:

"MJ's [B]"ROOKIE"[/B] season he had an NBA Efficiency Rating [B](PER)[/B] of [B]29.24, & 13.2 player wins[/B]. He also [B]IMPROVED[/B] them by 10 wins & took 'em to the Playoffs, a place they hadn't [B]SEEN[/B] since 1981..[/QUOTE]

According to [URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/"]basketball-reference[/URL], MJ's PER was 25.8.

[QUOTE=StoneCold]Kobe's 2006-07 season, he had an NBA Efficiency Rating [B](PER)[/B] of [B]27.65 and 11.2 player wins[/B].

Well kobe homers, how do U explain that? [/QUOTE]

According to the same source, Kobe's PER for 2006/07 was 26.1

[QUOTE=StoneCold]Not to mention MJ shot [B][I]52%[/I][/B] from the field his [B][U]ROOKIE[/U][/B] year...[/QUOTE]

True. (51.5% actually)

[QUOTE=StoneCold]...VS [B][I]46%[/I][/B] for kobe's 2007 campaign! [/QUOTE]

Also True. (46.3%)

[QUOTE=StoneCold]In [B][I]FACT[/I][/B], from a shooting standpoint, MJ's [B][I][U]ROOKIE[/U][/I][/B] year, is [B][I][U]BETTER[/U][/I][/B] than [B][I][U]ANY[/U][/I][/B] of kobe's!![/QUOTE]

True.

[QUOTE=StoneCold]Also during MJ's [B][I][U]ROOKIE[/U][/I][/B] year, he became the [B][I][U]ONLY[/U][/I][/B] player in history [I](at that time..Hakeem did it [B][U]LATER[/U][/B] in his career)[/I], to [B][I][U]LEAD[/U][/I][/B] his team in 4 of 5 categories [B][I](scoring, rebounding, assists & steals)[/I][/B]..[B][U]SHOW ME[/U][/B] a season at [B][U]ANY[/U][/B] point in kobe's career, where he's done [B][I][U]ANYTHING[/U][/I][/B] to this degree! I dare U![/QUOTE]

I don't know if MJ was the first to do it, but he did infact lead the Bulls in Points (28.2), Assists (5.9), Blocks (6.5) and Steals (2.4) his rookie year. I also know Scottie did it in 94.

[QUOTE=StoneCold]Dr. J did it in the ABA, but [B][I][U]NEVER[/U][/I][/B] in the NBA. MJ came within [U][B]4 blocks[/B][/U] in 1989 of [B][U]REPEATING[/U][/B] this feat..[/QUOTE]

Not true. MJ did come within 4 blocks of co-leading the team (Brad Sellers) but he avg'd a few less rebounds than Horace Grant in 1988/89.

[QUOTE=StoneCold]In the seasons [B][U]BEFORE[/U][/B] Pippen & Co., he had a [I][B]combined[/B][/I] average of [B]33ppg 5apg 6rpg 2.74spg 1.26bpg 49 FG%[/B].[/QUOTE]

Close...Before 1988 (when Pippen started playing for the Bulls), MJ avg'd 31.7 pts, 5 asts, 5.6 rbs, 2.6 stls, 1.2 blks and shot 49%

[QUOTE=StoneCold]Show me [B][I]ANY[/I][/B] season from kobe with better [B][U]OVERALL[/U][/B] Production than that?"[/QUOTE]

Kobe 's had a few come close to the Pre-Pippen MJ Years...

2002/03 30.0 pts, 5.9 asts, 6.9 rbs, 2.2 stls, 0.8 blks and 45%
2005/06 35.4 pts, 4.5 asts, 5.3 rbs, 1.8 stls, 0.4 blks and 45%
2006/07 31.6 pts, 5.4 asts, 5.7 rbs, 1.4 stls, 0.5 blks and 46%

[QUOTE=StoneCold]So I conclude this post, with the [B][I][U]SAME[/U][/I][/B] sentiment I expressed in the previous one: MJ's [U][I][B]ROOKIE[/B][/I][/U] season was productively [B][I][U]BETTER[/U][/I][/B], from an [B][I][U]OVERALL[/U][/I][/B] standpoint, & [B][U][I]TROUNCES[/I][/U][/B] any one of kobe's..[/QUOTE]

Kobe's had some years that are arguably better than MJ's rookie season, but there is no doubt that MJ's rookie numbers can stand beside some of Kobe's best years.

[QUOTE=StoneCold]

And U got the [B]NERVE[/B] to call MJ [I]"selfish"[/I]? Are U serious?

Kobe has [B][I][U]53 games[/U][/I][/B] to date, with [B]NO ASSISTS![/B] MJ has only [B][I]"6" in 14 years of play[/I][/B], with the [B]1st[/B] game like occuring in 1997..that's [B]13 STRAIGHT years with at least "1" assist![/B]

What's kobe's excuse?

U kobe homers need to stop deluding yourselves & get real. Get off your false paradise of eden that's perched on the banks of [B][I]'Denial'[/I][/B] & snap back into reality..[/QUOTE]

This is actually very close to true. According to this website([URL="http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/index.htm"]michaeljordansworld[/URL]), MJ only had 7 games in his ENTIRE CAREER in which he recorded no assists and the first didn't happen until his 12th year!

[I][B]With Bulls[/B]
Apr 12, 1996 vs Philadelphia 76ers W 112-82 (23, 0, 3)
Nov 06, 1996 at Miami Heat W 106-100 (50, 0, 6)
Jan 23, 1997 at Cleveland Cavaliers W 87-71 (32, 0, 9)
Dec 29, 1997 vs Dallas Mavericks W 111-105 (41, 0, 7)
Mar 29, 1998 at Milwaukee Bucks W 104-87 (30, 0, 2)

[B]With Wizards[/B]
Dec 6, 2003 at Orlando Magic L 88-78 (16, 0, 6)
Mar 05, 2003 vs Los Angeles Clippers W 99-80 (10, 0, 9)[/I]

That's an amazing stat.

[QUOTE]That is ridiculous. Jordan wasn't even the most hyped rookie in that draft class. So you are also saying rookie Jordan was better at getting to the line than 87 or 88 Jordan?[/QUOTE]
you are ridiculous, you don't know **** about who was hyped in 1985 because the world had the privilege of not having you around yet, and you had no idea of what basketball was for decades later..infact you still don't :D . the stats prove that michael jordan got to the line [I]atleast [/I]at the same ratio/pace as he did when he was a superstar years later.
[QUOTE]Yeah because slight advantages in steals, blocks, and turnovers really make up for a big advantage in points, a slight advantage in assists, a slight advantage in rebounds, a large advantage in field goal % and a comfortable advantage in 3P%. Not to mention 8 more games played.[/QUOTE]
games played doesn't come into the argument for reasons stated previously. and i didn't say bryant was better statistically, i said statistically they were close, which they obviously are, and when you add defense and wins it becomes a no contest.
[QUOTE]Actually the team did do more damage than that. They won 53 games and advanced to the second round.

And that's with Penny missing 22 games, Kidd missing 15 games, Gugliotta missing 28 games and Shawn Marion missing 31 games.[/QUOTE]
should've done more
[QUOTE]How do you know? They weren't doing badly without Kobe.[/QUOTE]
so you think the lakers would win the championship without kobe? :roll: you're more deluded than i ever imagined
[QUOTE]Did you even watch basketball back in 2000? There was a reason Eddie was 3rd in DPOY voting.[/QUOTE]
did you even own a tv in 2000? i asked you to give me reasons why eddie jones was a better defender than kobe bryant and you give me this ****? why wasn't jones on the 1st team all-defense?
[QUOTE]Yeah but that still doesn't mean he had half as much talent around him as Kobe did. Iverson had to carry the scoring load.[/QUOTE]
:hammerhead: he would have it no other way..kobe could do things without the ball in his hands, iverson had to have the ball in his hands at all times
[QUOTE]Hmmm so you're comparing 2 years to 23 years?[/QUOTE]
highlighting how pathetic your statement was
[QUOTE]Rice averaged 18 ppg in the 1999 season which was one of the lowest years for scoring and 16 ppg as the clear 3rd option in 2000 so I think if he was a 1st or second option he could still put up 20 ppg in 2000.[/QUOTE]
whats this got to do with anything?
[QUOTE]In the 16 games without Kobe they went 12-4. That is a .750 winning %. That is on pace for 61-62 wins in the regular season and no other team won 60 games that year so there is nothing to suggest they wouldn't have had the best record without Kobe.[/QUOTE]
yeh, because all you need to do after 16 games is multiply by 5.12 to get what your record at the end of the season will be huh..teams should just have to play 16 games..if a team wins their first 16 they automatically finish 82-0..makes perfect sense..you ****in joke

[QUOTE=Shep]you are ridiculous, you don't know **** about who was hyped in 1985 because the world had the privilege of not having you around yet, and you had no idea of what basketball was for decades later..infact you still don't :D . the stats prove that michael jordan got to the line [I]atleast [/I]at the same ratio/pace as he did when he was a superstar years later.[/QUOTE]

Shep you are what 1 or 2 years older than me? You didn't watch the NBA in 1985 either.

Your original comment was that Jordan got to the line a lot because of the refs which wasn't true. Jordan earned a lot of the hype and respect. Hakeem was considered the obvious number 1 pick back then.

[QUOTE]games played doesn't come into the argument for reasons stated previously. and i didn't say bryant was better statistically, i said statistically they were close, which they obviously are, and when you add defense and wins it becomes a no contest.[/QUOTE]

The stats aren't that close. Hill has a clear advantage.

As for defense, yeah Kobe was better but once again wins don't really come into play because he was playing with Shaq in his prime who led the Lakers to a 12-4 record without Kobe.

Grant Hill was the clear first option on his team.

[QUOTE]should've done more[/QUOTE]

With all of those injuries they should have won more than 53 games in the difficult Western Conference? :roll:

[QUOTE]so you think the lakers would win the championship without kobe? :roll: you're more deluded than i ever imagined[/QUOTE]

Look at what Shaq did in the playoffs and regular season. With or without Kobe they are still the favorite.

[QUOTE]did you even own a tv in 2000? i asked you to give me reasons why eddie jones was a better defender than kobe bryant and you give me this ****? [/QUOTE]

Jones was better because he was a shutdown defender who didn't get lit up nearly as often as Kobe did. Penny Hardaway and Jalen Rose both torched Kobe in the playoffs.


[QUOTE]why wasn't jones on the 1st team all-defense?[/QUOTE]

Who knows? Who cares?

Why did Kobe finish behind Jones in DPOY?

[QUOTE]:hammerhead: he would have it no other way..kobe could do things without the ball in his hands, iverson had to have the ball in his hands at all times[/QUOTE]

So? That still doesn't make the talent on his team anywhere near the talent on that Laker team.

[QUOTE]highlighting how pathetic your statement was[/QUOTE]

Well you did a miserable job of it.

[QUOTE]whats this got to do with anything?[/QUOTE]

Pointing out that if Glen Rice can average 17 or 18 ppg when scoring was way down in 1999 and then 16 ppg as a clear 3rd option the next year then it's pretty obvious that if he was the second option he could have averaged around 20.

Just part of pointing out how much better the talent was on that Laker team instead of the 76er team.

[QUOTE]yeh, because all you need to do after 16 games is multiply by 5.12 to get what your record at the end of the season will be huh..teams should just have to play 16 games..if a team wins their first 16 they automatically finish 82-0..makes perfect sense..you ****in joke[/QUOTE]

First of all the word isn't "yeh" it's yeah.

Second of all you base that team being bad without Bryant on nothing.

I base my statement on the fact that the Lakers played very well without Bryant for an extended stretch.

I don't know where you get this sh*t but keep posting it because it's funny as hell.