ISH all-time draft thread

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937847]From top to bottom, you have a better defensive team. I just feel the fit is better on his end. Good luck getting the ball back from McHale once he receives a pass in the post. :lol

If you replaced Kobe with someone like Klay, I would like your team alot better. He would give you better shooting, isn't a high usage player, & provides good defense. There is no need for a Kobe with a team like this.[/QUOTE]

Kobe with low usage can play as good if not better D than Klay. Klay is only a better spot up 3pt shooter. Kobe literally does everything else on offense better.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14937891][B]Kobe with low usage [/B]can play as good if not better D than Klay. Klay is only a better spot up 3pt shooter. Kobe literally does everything else on offense better.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't exist. Kobe forced Steve Nash of all people to be a spot up shooter, it wasn't that long ago, we remember.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14937891]Kobe with low usage can play as good if not better D than Klay. Klay is only a better spot up 3pt shooter. Kobe literally does everything else on offense better.[/QUOTE]

Kobe on the Redeem team made it a point to take the toughest cover on defense every single game. And had no problem sacrificing offensive energy to do it. Even though he closed out the championship game on offense anyway to bring USA back the Gold Medal.

There's a reason realGM voted that team as a top candidate along with imagine and DJ.

[QUOTE=tpols;14937894]Kobe on the Redeem team made it a point to take the toughest cover on defense every single game. And had no problem sacrificing offensive energy to do it. There's a reason realGM voted that team as a top candidate along with imagine and DJ.[/QUOTE]
He also made it a point to chuck up bricks instead of passing it to his more efficient teammates.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14937895]He also made it a point to chuck up bricks instead of passing it to his more efficient teammates.[/QUOTE]

If Kobe was such a bad player how did he lead so many great offenses post-Shaq?

[QUOTE=tpols;14937894]Kobe on the Redeem team made it a point to take the toughest cover on defense every single game. And had no problem sacrificing offensive energy to do it. Even though he closed out the championship game on offense anyway to bring USA back the Gold Medal.

There's a reason realGM voted that team as a top candidate along with imagine and DJ.[/QUOTE]

That’s a misconception. Kobe had the most shot attempts on that team while taking a “lesser role”. :lol

At the end of the day he couldn’t help himself. I believe Kobe is at his best with another superstar who isn’t ball-dominant. I think his value drops on a team filled with stars.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937940]That’s a misconception. Kobe had the most shot attempts on that team while taking a “lesser role”. :lol

At the end of the day he couldn’t help himself. I believe Kobe is at his best with another superstar who isn’t ball-dominant. I think his value drops on a team filled with stars.[/QUOTE]

Agree with this. Kobe in any situation is gonna demand a lot of touches with average playmaking and below average IQ. Not good for team synergy or efficiency. Defensively he'd be very solid though.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937940]That’s a misconception. Kobe had the most shot attempts on that team while taking a “lesser role”. :lol

At the end of the day he couldn’t help himself. I believe Kobe is at his best with another superstar who isn’t ball-dominant. I think his value drops on a team filled with stars.[/QUOTE]
Yep, took THIRTY FOUR more shots than Wade only to score 8 less points :lol

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14937949]Yep, took THIRTY FOUR more shots than Wade only to score 8 less points :lol[/QUOTE]

For what it’s worth, I felt like your team was way underrated mainly due to AD and Wade getting underrated. Wade being able to shoot 67% while leading the redeem team in scoring and at the same time being their best perimeter defender shows he can conform to a multiple superstar setting(if Heatles wasn’t proof enough but he was old for most of that era). Wade can punch way above his weight class in terms of players he can guard, and between him, AD, and Hakeem you have 3 guys who can each switch everything defensively while being 30 ppg capable on their own teams. They aren’t shooting anyone off the court, but all 3 shoot well enough to keep the defense honest.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;14937957]For what it’s worth, I felt like your team was way underrated mainly due to AD and Wade getting underrated. Wade being able to shoot 67% while leading the redeem team in scoring and at the same time being their best perimeter defender shows he can conform to a multiple superstar setting(if Heatles wasn’t proof enough but he was old for most of that era). Wade can punch way above his weight class in terms of players he can guard, and between him, AD, and Hakeem you have 3 guys who can each switch everything defensively while being 30 ppg capable on their own teams. They aren’t shooting anyone off the court, but all 3 shoot well enough to keep the defense honest.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I feel like my team was very well constructed. Wade/AD/Hakeem as my core 3, all elite two way players, Tatum providing additional scoring, defense & spacing, Price providing shooting and playmaking, Butler off the bench, and two other HOF's who fit in nicely in Dumars & Bosh. Only one vote to show for it though :lol

I do think a reddit thread would've been good as well.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14937927]If Kobe was such a bad player how did he lead so many great offenses post-Shaq?[/QUOTE]
Who said he was bad? Not very useful playing with other ball dominant perimeter players though.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14937927]If Kobe was such a bad player how did he lead so many great offenses post-Shaq?[/QUOTE]

Woke.

Kobe's style of play (off-ball, late shot-clock tough shot-making) was often conducive to a lower [i]team[/i] turnover percentage and higher [i]team[/i] offensive rebounding percentage. So, even when eFG% and FTr were lower, LA could still produce efficient offense.

LA 05-13: +2.61 rORtg
LA 97-04: +4.2 rORtg

Two-year peak:

- 08+09: +5.0 rORtg
- 98+99: +6.15 rORtg (lock-out shortened season)
- 01+02: +5.15 rORtg

A not-so-steep drop-off considering the lack of offensive talent in comparison.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14938023]Woke.

Kobe's style of play (off-ball, late shot-clock tough shot-making) was often conducive to a lower [i]team[/i] turnover percentage and higher [i]team[/i] offensive rebounding percentage. So, even when eFG% and FTr were lower, LA could still produce efficient offense.

LA 05-13: +2.61 rORtg
LA 97-04: +4.2 rORtg

Two-year peak:

- 08+09: +5.0 rORtg
- 98+99: +6.15 rORtg (lock-out shortened season)
- 01+02: +5.15 rORtg

A not-so-steep drop-off considering the lack of offensive talent in comparison.[/QUOTE]
Weird giving him credit for the Shaq years when you yourself pointed out their record was bad when Shaq didn't play and Kobe did but still elite when Shaq played and Kobe didn't. But I know you're just moving from opinion to opinion to stir up shit as you always do.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14938024]Weird giving him credit for the Shaq years when you yourself pointed out their record was bad when Shaq didn't play and Kobe did but still elite when Shaq played and Kobe didn't. But I know you're just moving from opinion to opinion to stir up shit as you always do.[/QUOTE]

You're not really making sense here. I'm giving credit to Kobe for the years [i]without[/i] Shaq.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14938025]You're not really making sense here. I'm giving credit to Kobe for the years [i]without[/i] Shaq.[/QUOTE]
You included years with Shaq. Your favorite stat RAPM is extremely low on Kobe btw...He grades out as a Kyrie level player

[QUOTE=RRR3;14938026]You included years with Shaq.[/QUOTE]
As a comparison...

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14938027]As a comparison...[/QUOTE]
That wasn't made clear.

rrr3 is a low iq psychopath

:roll:

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14938073]Not my Godbe. NOT MY GODBEEEE!!!!!! :cry:[/QUOTE]
:lol

you are f.ucking weird bro

You made an alt for the sole purpose of harassing me and another poster, but yeah I'm the weird one.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937267]Basketball is more than "how many three points shooters you have", but having them in today's era keeps defenders honest. In today's league if you run any line-up that lack shooters defenses will exploit that, they will just key in on the star players without facing much consequences. And with all due respect to ISB, he ran a Shaq-Russell lineup in one of our previous drafts. I pointed out to him that having Russell play the 4 takes away some of his rim protection and it makes life harder for Shaq on offense since teams could zero in on Shaq since Russell wouldn't provide you any spacing. After the draft, when we ran the poll on realgm multiple users pointed out the same thing when evaluating his team.[/QUOTE]

Just responding to this now. Took me a while to find the thread with the entire teams listed from that all-time draft. I think it's important to look at the [i]entire[/i] roster of a team, not just two players. I'm sure everyone would agree.

I believe the stipulation was for today's rules. Here's the team I drafted:

[QUOTE]Shaquille O'Neal - Patrick Ewing
Bill Russell - Karl Malone
Scottie Pippen - Shane Battier
Reggie Miller - Michael Cooper
Steve Nash - Mark Price[/QUOTE]

I built a team that's heavy on strengths, fully aware that many would question the surface-level fit of O'Neal and Russell. It's also why I overloaded my guard rotation with superb shooters and playmakers. I took inspiration from GSW's two non-shooters with an all-time shooting back-court approach.

I think the Russell-O'Neal tandem works. What made Russell unique for his time was his mobile help defense, which he described as his [i]horizontal game[/i].

[QUOTE]Here’s what former teammate Bill Sharman said about him in the 1967 documentary “Year to Remember:”

[QUOTE]“Russell, who is a little quicker than [Wilt Chamberlain or Nate Thurmond], will go to the corners, block a shot or get back underneath and get the big rebound or again pick up the cutter.”[/QUOTE]

He could cover just about any opponent in front of him; here he is switching on to Oscar and then West, completely disrupting both:

[video=youtube;xB1CQsJFzeY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB1CQsJFzeY[/video]

[video=youtube;4emk4l18ePg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4emk4l18ePg[/video][/QUOTE]

He absolutely could and would thrive defensively playing the PF position similar to Garnett, Giannis, Draymond, and Davis. The role requires exceptional mobility to quickly roam, provide help defense, and recover. It also demands versatility to switch and defend guards and forwards out on the perimeter.

Bill has all the tools required: A+ positional size, freakish athleticism and mobility, defensive awareness/instinct/IQ, and a GOAT-level high-revving motor.

[video=youtube;bhEVmb6yVns]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhEVmb6yVns[/video]

[video=youtube;9SQAOaBkl1Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SQAOaBkl1Y[/video]

Seeing as how we selected players at their peaks in the all-time draft, I get 1999-00 Shaq. This was the only season he was really engaged and intelligent on defense. 1999-00 LA had the #1 defense and a very strong -5.9 rDRtg; Shaq finished third in DPOY and made the All-Defense 2nd Team.

I'm very confident Russell and O'Neal would be a dominant defensive tandem.

In the modern era, I'd liken the stylistic combination to Giannis Antetokoumpo and Brook Lopez: a mobile, hyper-athletic PF and a shot-blocking drop-coverage center. Milwaukee had a generationally strong defense in 2019-20, posting a -7.7 rDRtg.

The offense is where I'll lose most people but I believe it would work. And I think this for three reasons:

1) Bill's offensive strengths (ball handling, passing, roll-and-cut finishing, face-up slashing, offensive rebounding) translate very well to today's league.
2) My guard rotation is overloaded with elite shooters and playmakers.
3) I don't believe in rigid rules/false narratives regarding shooting and spacing.

I see Russell functioning as a bigger Draymond in my team. He'd operate as the primary screener for Nash and Price, working in the short-roll/fake hand-off secondary delay actions while Shaq moves off-ball in the dunker's spot and the low-post.

O'Neal was a fantastic post-up player but he was an even better finisher around the basket. He'd feast with all the lobs, dump-offs, and cuts.

I also like Russell and O'Neal passing out of the high post and doing pinch-post actions with Nash and Price while the other sets screens off-ball for Reggie. Russell's high-low passes to O'Neal from the high post would be brutally effective. Shaq was great at passing out of the low post, and Russell would preoccupy the help defense on the weak side by screening for shooters and cutting off those actions.

I don't think Russell and O'Neal would get in the way of each other nearly as much as people would think. And if anything, Russell's uninterest in scoring works well with O'Neal, who loves to. Bill's not taking shots away from Shaq. That's a plus.

This idea that you absolutely need a specific amount of shooters on the floor is false. There have been many high-performing lineups in recent years with [i]multiple[/i] non-shooters. I thought the Warriors made this clear to everyone but apparently not. Here are some examples:

[SIZE=1](NBA.com and Basketball Reference lineup numbers vary slightly. This is due to a different possession formula I believe)[/SIZE]

[img]https://i.ibb.co/brWMWvG/imagelineups1.png[/img]

Even in Shaq's last season, he was part of the best starting lineup during the regular season. It featured two non-shooters (O'Neal + Rondo):

[img]https://i.ibb.co/s2FnSDk/BDj2n-OZ-d.webp[/img]

I still back my selections looking at my team from this all-time draft. My starting lineup just has too many strengths and the fit concerns are overblown. My bench gives me lineup, matchup, and scheme flexibility.

Also forgot to include GSW's 2022-23 starting lineup. Featuring two non-shooters (Green, Looney), it was statistically far and away the best starting five in the NBA.

[QUOTE][B]2023: S. Curry - K. Thompson - D. Green - A. Wiggins - K. Looney[/B]

- 27 games played, 331 minutes played
- 128.0 ORtg; 106.1 DRtg; +21.9 Net Rating (1st [min. 80 minutes played])

[img]https://i.ibb.co/Dpthxmy/X6-Rg-Cns-d.webp[/img][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14937687]IMO:

Team 1 and 7 are the best.

Team 3 and 6 are the worst.

Rest inbetween.


I voted Team 7.[/QUOTE]


Can anyone give me a quick rundown on who the teams belong to or at least these 4.