It wasn't a playoff game.
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It wasn't a playoff game.
[QUOTE=jan803]well naturally mj's 69 was a better overall better game. it gets bigger props because it was a playoff game as well.
[/QUOTE]
it was NOT in the playoffs. Is that so hard to understand?
[QUOTE=Loki]How does me noting that Price's defense was way better than Nash's (your analogy, not mine) make me a "Kobe hater" considering that Steve Nash didn't guard Kobe in that game? Price was simply a much better defender; I've seen both of them. Price was more fundamental, gave more effort, and was gritty to boot. Nash is...well...Nash.[/QUOTE]
Just wasn't sure, that's all. That's why I asked, and didn't label. Plus, I do think Price is a better defender than Steve Nash. But I definetely wouldn't label it as "light years". You know the deal though. Price and Nash are virtually the same player in my opinion, except Price faced and played against way better defense.
BTW, Price guarded him on more than one play. I remember specifically him making Price fall, on a turn around fadeaway where he shook Price, and he fell to the ground. I also remember Jordan hitting a long perimter 3 on him. And he guarded him on a few more plays.
[QUOTE]Did I personally say that?[/QUOTE]
No, you didn't. But at the same time I'm like defending myself from 2-3 people. Naturally I lumped you in with them, and I apologize. I was addressing like 2 or 3 of you all at once. Know what I mean?
[QUOTE]Kobe was doubled (not as much as some fans would have you believe, but he was)[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Actually, he wasn't doubled till the 4th quarter. But I also think the 4th quarter of that game was his highest scoring quarter. But definetely, he wasn't doubled until the 4th. I mean they ran players at him, but the double team wasn't intense until the later stages. And they were doing i on the perimeter.
[QUOTE]but the actual quality of the defenses in question can be viewed objectively, as I've tried to show you. As to individual defenders, I really don't think that Jalen Rose is much more athletic than Craig Ehlo.[/QUOTE]
Jalen Rose might not be, but Mo Pete is.
[QUOTE]Don't know what else to say except that I think you're simultaneously overestimating the athleticism of Toronto's defenders while underestimating that of Cleveland's defenders.[/QUOTE]
I could be, that's also why I also settled on saying they were equal. Because if you watch the game, Jordan isn't facing some difficult defense like the Knicks, or Pistons who gave Jordan bigger fits than other teams. Cavs may have been good statistically on defense against other teams, but this is a team that never gave Jordan troubles, individually. Toronto wasn't a good defensive team either. That's why they were on a level playing field as far as defense they faced, goes.
[QUOTE]I have never -- as in "not once" -- tried to diminish Kobe's performance. Not when it happened, and not in the intervening months.[/QUOTE]
Ok, cool. Can't say the same for some of the people in this thread. You'd have to have your basketball fan membership revoked if you didn't dig, or acknowledge the craziness that was this game. If you try to diminish this game at all, you aren't a fan. Even if you don't like the guy, which is a vast majority of people, you have to give him props for this game.
[QUOTE]I agree.[/QUOTE]
Good, smart man.
[QUOTE]Neither do I.[/QUOTE]
Double true. What is your favorite Mike performance? Personally, I don't know if it is my favorite... but the game where he dropped like 35 in the half of Game 1 of the 1992 NBA Finals... he could've dropped a ridiculous amount of points in an NBA FINALS GAME!!! He realistically, the way he was playing ... and shooting the 3. Jordan could've got to 80 in that game. And I say that w/o hesitation, and w/o pity.
[QUOTE=jan803]
just accept that that scoring 81 is hard. no one but wilt out did it and he took just a regulation game to pull it off.[/QUOTE]
If you have to ask someone to admit that is difficult, there is no use in talking about sports with them.
I still feel 81 points, 6 rebounds, and 3 steals in 41 minutes is more amazing than Jordan's 69 points, 18 rebounds, and 3 steals in 50 minutes of basketball. That 12 points is alot, given the amount of playing time the two played. They played a similar defense. You can't use competition as a means to dis-credit, and/or praise either, because watching the games both Jordan and Kobe sliced through a similar permiter defense. Kobe didn't have those massive 18 rebounds, but that also wasn't what the team needed to win the game. And Kobe scored all those points, because that is what his team needed to win.
Don't take it as I am dis-crediting MJ. That's my man. That's my favorite player of all time. The GOAT, imo. And he was a better player than Kobe Bryant. But that 62 in 3, and 81, are two of the greatest scoring games in history. Both sitting right behind Wilt's 100. That 62 in 3, against the second best team in the league, and one of the better defenses in the league was crazy. A much more thrilling feat (IMO) than Kobe's 81. That game, realistically, Kobe could've put up around 90 points if he stayed that hot, and played the rest of the game out. Kind of frightening if you think about it. PJ said he had never seen a scoring outburtst like that. He said he never saw someone drop 62 points in only 3 quarters of play. It was crazy. That's a real life video game, right there.
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]it was NOT in the playoffs. Is that so hard to understand?[/QUOTE]
oh, then i was thinking of another game of mj's.
still doesn't change what i said about his rebounds. it was why it was the better overall game.
[QUOTE=Money 23]BTW, Price guarded him on more than one play. [B]I remember specifically him making Price fall, on a turn around fadeaway where he shook Price, and he fell to the ground.[/B] I also remember Jordan hitting a long perimter 3 on him. And he guarded him on a few more plays.[/quote]
That's the play I recalled as well. I honestly don't recall any others, though he might have hit a 3 on Price as well. To say that Jordan was guarded by "Price and Ehlo" is misleading, however. Like I said, he was guarded by Ehlo and Bennett for at least 90-95% of the game.
[quote]Jalen Rose might not be, but Mo Pete is.[/quote]
Yeah, but it's marginal -- it's not like Mo Pete is TMac, after all.
[quote]Double true. What is your favorite Mike performance? Personally, I don't know if it is my favorite... but the game where he dropped like 35 in the half of Game 1 of the 1992 NBA Finals... he could've dropped a ridiculous amount of points in an NBA FINALS GAME!!! He realistically, the way he was playing ... and shooting the 3. Jordan could've got to 80 in that game. And I say that w/o hesitation, and w/o pity.[/QUOTE]
I don't think he could've gotten 80 that game (or even 65+), but there's no question he could have had 40-45 points that first half. Few people know this (people who don't have the game on tape, that is :D), but Jordan scored 35 in the first half while [i]sitting out about 7 1/2 minutes[/i]. That's insane.
Just being in the playoffs doesnt make you a good defensive team. Look at the Suns.
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]it was NOT in the playoffs. Is that so hard to understand?[/QUOTE]
It wasn't, but it might as well have been. It definitely had playoff-level intensity. The Cavs were trying desperately to get into the playoffs, so it was a key game for them.
In other words, this wasn't some lackadaisical mid-season game.
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6l7MHr4Wag"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6l7MHr4Wag[/URL]
That's every one of his baskets from the 69-point game. As you can see, Price is on him (on a switch where Jordan rolled into the post, mind you) for only one play, and then comes to help on the baseline on another jumper as Jordan beat Ehlo baseline.
[QUOTE=Loki]
I don't think he could've gotten 80 that game (or even 65+), but there's no question he could have had 40-45 points that first half. Few people know this (people who don't have the game on tape, that is :D), but Jordan scored 35 in the first half while [i]sitting out about 7 1/2 minutes[/i]. That's insane.[/QUOTE]
I fully realized that. That's why I said, if he kept that hot shooting, and got the minutes... he could've put up 60+ for sure.
[QUOTE=Money 23]I fully realized that. That's why I said, if he kept that hot shooting, and got the minutes... he could've put up 60+ for sure.[/QUOTE]
Keeping the hot shooting and getting the minutes in a blowout game are the hard parts. Also, getting 16+ FT's on a hot shooting night, AND getting 40+ shots up AND staying in the game til the very end. It was a confluence of circumstances that allowed Kobe's game to occur:
-- he was incredibly hot (not normal hot -- incredibly hot)
-- he played the entire game and needed to score to erase a deficit (as opposed to sitting a lot with a big lead or playing but filling another role, like say facilitator, if the team was playing well)
-- he put up a huge # of shots
-- he got a ton of FT's in the same game that all of the above was happening
Jordan has unquestionably been "hotter" than Kobe many games (i.e., higher FG%); for example, in 1989 he went 24-29 from the field for 52 points -- he hit 21 of his first 23 shots that game. But he only got 4 free throws. There are other games like that; the point is that if he was having a super hot game, AND had to play big minutes, AND got a ton of FT's in the same game, AND took 46 shots in the same game, he'd have many more games of 60+ to his credit, and even possibly a couple of 70+ games.
This is not to discredit what Kobe did -- but you have to admit that everything came together for him that night, which is incredibly rare. A lot of that has nothing to do with him (e.g., the # of FT's awarded in any given game, the quality of the defense etc.). Still, a remarkable performance, and one that I probably won't see the equal of in my lifetime.
I'll have to with MJ
playoff game and against a great team like the Celtics.
Not to discredit Kobe though 91 points by a 2 guard is freaking crazy.
[QUOTE=crisoner]I'll have to with MJ
playoff game and against a great team like the Celtics.
Not to discredit Kobe though 91 points by a 2 guard is freaking crazy.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
I'm hoping this was facetious. :hammerhead: :D In fact, I'm pretty sure it was.
[QUOTE=crisoner]I'll have to with MJ
playoff game and against a great team like the Celtics.
Not to discredit Kobe though 91 points by a 2 guard is freaking crazy.[/QUOTE]
:confused:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6l7MHr4Wag[/url]
[B]LOL @ people acting like that's good defense. MJ was wide open damn near most the time.[/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8MXycYwfRg[/url]
56 in 3 quarters back in 2002
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNGTN_s4l78[/url]
42 in a half(55 total) vs Wizards. [B]Kobe had over 30 points in a stretch of 7 minutes at one point[/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeY6_f-pJWc[/url]
Kobe drops 62 in 3 quarters vs Dallas who had WAY MORE CAPABLE DEFENDERS than the damn Cavs.
Of course the 81 point game as well...didn't Kobe score over 50 in the second half alone? Don't quite remember. Took MJ OT...that seals it for Kobe.