There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time

[QUOTE]e has the best combination of statistics\dominance\awards\rings\skill. Usually people will use Russel over MJ for winning\Wilt over MJ because of statistics\dominance and what that proves is you have to use more than 1 player to debunk MJ's case for GOAT.[/QUOTE]

Kareem says hi. [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3698567#post3698567[/url]

I can see one saying MJ>KAJ but the notion that any broad combination inevitably leads to concluding MJ=GOAT is a ridiculous myth. Also, Russell and Wilt have cases that revolve around one or two things but they are pretty big things. Wilt>Jordan in every area other than winning and he had the misfortune of playing in the same era as the GOAT dynasty. Russell has 11 rings in 12 healthy seasons and 13 overall. His team sucked before him and after him. They didn't win 55 games without him. They missed the playoffs after he retired. Jordan has a case for GOAT but it is not a scientific fact as some allege.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Kareem says hi. [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3698567#post3698567[/url][/QUOTE]

Where does Kareem have the edge?. I seriously think some haters look down apon how crazy it is that Jordan made it the finals 6 times and was the best player every single time. Like I said I value the combination but the fact of being the BEST player no argument on 6 championship teams holds alot of weight for me anyways.

Russel lacks the offensive dominance of MJ and Wilt lacks the success. See how you had to use 2 players to try and debunk the combo of Jordan? Jordan had the success and was dominent on both ends(clearly not close to Russel on defense tho).

Kareem has a case and clearly alot of other players do. I'm not saying they don't. It's all opinion when it's close like that. Just my opinion

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]I've never said that. What I have long said is he had the best "supporting cast" of any superstar in the 90's.


[B]Irrelevant. I don't believe we have another superstar who led his team to 3 rings, then retired, and had his team add 2 very good roleplayers in order to compare. Jordan's supporting cast was not the "most talented" by any stretch of the imagination. Other than Pippen, they were role players who played their roles well. [/B]


Name "supporting casts" who could do even that in the 90's without their best player? Thanks in advance.



:lol He averaged 32/7/5 on 48% while taking 25 shots a game in 42 minutes in the 95' playoffs.

[B]Yes, Jordan, even out of basketball shape, was a phenomenal athlete and basketball player. That's why he came back when he did. Yet the fact that he was not in basketball shape affected his game, as Phil, Pip, and Jordan attested to. Stats do not equate with basketball success. Just ask LBJ.[/B]



Yeah--and they disappeared in the playoffs when it counted. Again, 9/4/3 in 18 minutes from Kukoc and 3.5 ppg from Kerr in the playoffs yet the Knicks (with Ewing) still needed Hue Hollins to "win"!

[B]They produced 20 ppg, 6 assists, 6 rebounds, 2 steals and a block on very good combined shooting. That helped the bulls achieve the 55 wins that you attribute to Jordan's "supporting cast". Kerr and Kukoc had not been a part of Jordan's supporting cast, yet they accounted for 1/5th of the bulls points that year.

Kukoc hardly "disappeared" in the playoffs. He posted a 21.9 PER, just behind Pippen's 22.8.[/B]

Plus, Cartwright and Paxson were banged up in 94'. Cartwright played only 5 minutes in the Cleveland series. Why don't MJ fans mention this? The only key players on all cylinders on the playoffs were Pippen, Grant, and Armstrong.

[B]Cartwright was old and banged up during the season as well, posting only a 10.1 PER, good for 12th on the team. LOL.[/B]


You failed to grasp what "financial reasons" meant.

[B]No, I grasp quite well what "financial reasons" mean. [/B]



For all three yes, but if they gave MJ $33 million and did not retain Jackson and Pippen we all know--even though you may say otherwise--MJ would not have come back.

[B]How do you know? Have you interviewed Jordan and asked him? For all you know, Jordan WOULD have come back had he been paid what he had been paid over the last few years. But in reality, none of those 3 wanted to come back if any of those 3 were not coming back.[/B]

Again, why is all this (diminishing MJ's teammates) necessary if the claims about MJ are accurate?[/QUOTE]

[B]None of it is "necessary". Jordan doesn't need "defending" as I've said many times, but this sure is fun for me, because I enjoy the debate. Jordan's career resume has already convinced most people that he is GOAT or darn close.[/B]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Kareem says hi. [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3698567#post3698567[/url]

I can see one saying MJ>KAJ but the notion that any broad combination inevitably leads to concluding MJ=GOAT is a ridiculous myth. Also, Russell and Wilt have cases that revolve around one or two things but they are pretty big things. Wilt>Jordan in every area other than winning and he had the misfortune of playing in the same era as the GOAT dynasty. Russell has 11 rings in 12 healthy seasons and 13 overall. His team sucked before him and after him. They didn't win 55 games without him. They missed the playoffs after he retired. Jordan has a case for GOAT but it is not a scientific fact as some allege.[/QUOTE]

Russell was only dominant one way. Jordan dominant both ways.
Kareem and his 6 rings....with only 2 finals mvps...say hi.
Wilt and his lack of rings compmared to Jordan, and his decreased playoff performance and records say Hi.

Jordan: dominated on BOTH ends of the court, always won as the lead dog, upped his performance in the playoffs and finals, and has as nearly as many playoff records as regular season! GOAT.

[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]Where does Kareem have the edge?. I seriously think some haters look down apon how crazy it is that Jordan made it the finals 6 times and was the best player every single time. Like I said I value the combination but the fact of being the BEST player no argument on 6 championship teams holds alot of weight for me anyways.

Russel lacks the offensive dominance of MJ and Wilt lacks the success. See how you had to use 2 players to try and debunk the combo of Jordan? Jordan had the success and was dominent on both ends(clearly not close to Russel on defense tho).

Kareem has a case and clearly alot of other players do. I'm not saying they don't. It's all opinion when it's close like that. Just my opinion[/QUOTE]

You hit the nail on the head. It takes 3 separate players to match the combined success of Jordan. That alone shows you that he is GOAT.

[B]Lebron James is the equivalent of a 87-89 Michael Jordan right now. [/B]

Excellent statistical production. Top PER. Great rediculous All-Around Numbers. However, still question about him being the best since they both haven't won a championship yet at their respective points in their careers. Amazing Athleticism that gives them great numbers. They can play without getting tired, and can consistently put up great all around numbers with ease.

[B]Kobe Bryant is the equivalent of a 96-98 Michael Jordan right now.[/B]

Puts up great, but not Amazing Stats(a.k.a. Lebron or Jordan 87-89). Athleticism has clearly declined from earlier in their careers. Can put up big games, but since they are older they have to pick and choose when to so they don't over exert themselves. However has championship experience. Clutch. Competitive. Veteran Experience. To get the job done when it counts. Both are trying to do another 3-peat.

Lebron James = 87-89 Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant = 96-98 Michael Jordan

I doubt either of them reach Michael's true peak which 91-93 (First 3-Peat). There was no player that was more perfect. Clutch. Championship Experience. Great Stats. Everything

MJ 91-93 combined what he had in 87-89 and 96-98 together. AKA he was a mix of Lebron and Kobe right now.

You guys are going to give Roundball arthritis, slow it down a bit :oldlol:

[QUOTE=laronprofit9][B]Lebron James is the equivalent of a 87-89 Michael Jordan right now. [/B]

Excellent statistical production. Top PER. Great rediculous All-Around Numbers. However, still question about him being the best since they both haven't won a championship yet at their respective points in their careers. Amazing Athleticism that gives them great numbers. They can play without getting tired, and can consistently put up great all around numbers with ease.

[B]Kobe Bryant is the equivalent of a 96-98 Michael Jordan right now.[/B]

Puts up great, but not Amazing Stats(a.k.a. Lebron or Jordan 87-89). Athleticism has clearly declined from earlier in their careers. Can put up big games, but since they are older they have to pick and choose when to so they don't over exert themselves. However has championship experience. Clutch. Competitive. Veteran Experience. To get the job done when it counts. Both are trying to do another 3-peat.

Lebron James = 87-89 Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant = 96-98 Michael Jordan

I doubt either of them reach Michael's true peak which 91-93 (First 3-Peat). There was no player that was more perfect. Clutch. Championship Experience. Great Stats. Everything

MJ 91-93 combined what he had in 87-89 and 96-98 together. AKA he was a mix of Lebron and Kobe right now.[/QUOTE]

Excellent post and excellent points. :applause:
Jordan nearly maintained his statistical domination, while leading his team to 3 rings 91-93. At one time, he was the best offensive and defensive player in the league. He dominated both ends. He scored nearly at will. He got others involved. But he contributed as much to his teams' success as any player ever has, and did so while never losing on the biggest stage in 6 tries, and never losing to an underdog.

Unprecented.

[QUOTE=Soothsayer]Russell was only dominant one way. Jordan dominant both ways.
Kareem and his 6 rings....with only 2 finals mvps...say hi.
Wilt and his lack of rings compmared to Jordan, and his decreased playoff performance and records say Hi.

Jordan: dominated on BOTH ends of the court, always won as the lead dog, upped his performance in the playoffs and finals, and has as nearly as many playoff records as regular season! GOAT.[/QUOTE]

Utfanatic whatsup bro? Lol......To be fair, though I personally have Jordan as my Goat and Kareem at 1b, Kareem was every bit as dominant & skilled on both ends as a big man, as Jordan was as a wing player.

Also, I think the finals mvp award edge should be taken into context.

Everyone knows that Kareem was the real finals mvp for the 1980 Nba finals, and he has a legit case as the 1982 finals mvp as well (though Magic was amazing).

Also Kareem was the best player in the 1984 Nba finals (the Lakers might have won had it not been for Magic's choke job) and by far the most dominating player in the 1974 finals averaging 32.6 ppg 12.1 rpg 5.4 apg on 52% shooting (Oscar Robertson had a bad to mediocre series and choked in critical moments).

Kareem was the best player on that Lakers team with Magic from 1980-1985 (Their first 3 championships).
He was their leading scorer, rebounder, leader, and their defensive anchor. The finals mvp doesnt take away from what Kareem was to that team.

[QUOTE=AirJordan&Magic]Utfanatic whatsup bro? Lol......To be fair, though I personally have Jordan as my Goat and Kareem at 1b, Kareem was every bit as dominant & skilled on both ends as a big man, as Jordan was as a wing player.

Also, I think the finals mvp award edge should be taken into context.

Everyone knows that Kareem was the real finals mvp for the 1980 Nba finals, and he has a legit case as the 1982 finals mvp as well (though Magic was amazing).

Also Kareem was the best player in the 1984 Nba finals (the Lakers might have won had it not been for Magic's choke job) and by far the most dominating player in the 1974 finals averaging 32.6 ppg 12.1 rpg 5.4 apg on 52% shooting (Oscar Robertson had a bad to mediocre series and choked in critical moments).

Kareem was the best player on that Lakers team with Magic from 1980-1985 (Their first 3 championships).
He was their leading scorer, rebounder, leader, and their defensive anchor. The finals mvp doesnt take away from what Kareem was to that team.[/QUOTE]

I feel you, and I respect Kareem immensely. I alterate between having him #2, #3, or #4, but I can't overlook the 6 titles with only 2 finals mvps. We would obviously view MJ differently had he only gotten 2 finals mvps out of 6 rings.

But you are right, Kareem dominated both ways, and has everything you would want for GOAT...save for only 2 finals mvps. IMO, you just have to factor it in when a player is only the best player on his own team for half of his rings or less. But much love to Cap!