Would Bulls fans trade Derrick Rose for LeBron James if they had the chance?

[QUOTE=tpols]What?

Efficiency is points scored divided by possessions used to get those points.

With this logic a 3pt shooter going 4/10 is less efficient than another player going 5/10 on 2pt field goals. One took 10 scoring opportunities to score 12 points and one took 10 opportunities to score 10 points despite the latter shooting 10% better FG. There's no way you can spin this to say the second player is more efficient.:oldlol:

Taking threes results in more misses which can give the opposing team more opportunities but at the same token, three pointers are some of the biggest momentum shifters in the game and anyone whose ever played basketball knows that it is a rythym game. They have their positives and their negatives.

It really comes down to what you value but all statistics have their place in the game. TS shows us how many opportunities it took a player to get his points.That is efficiency at it's rawest.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. Efficiency at its rawest is counting makes and misses. Of course all things being equal and assuming the same number of points scored...

Like I have repeatedly said, in some instances (like straight three point shooters) TS does a great job.

However, if we are looking at scoring in general, i think the raw data is better than TS%.

Take Wade and Kobe. I would imagine there TS% numbers are pretty similar. However, Wade misses about 1 shot less than Kobe per game to get his points. That is huge in the grand scheme of things.

TS rewards players for settling for threes more than it should and manipulates data.

Why is it used on here when we can just as easily post everything. TS narrows the efficiency gap between players.

Deng in 07 shot 6% better from the field and 2.5% better from the ft line and missed less shots and scored more points than he did this year. Yet his ts% is only 1.2% different because of threes. That doesn't work for me.

I want the entire picture.

Without Rose, the bulls are a poor mans Milwaukee Bucks.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]You said he never played with guys like Booz and Noah and I proved you wrong.

Booz has been so so this year and not better than the year he held FA hostage for a big contract.

The jump from OJ to Kobe or AI to Bron is MUCH MUCH bigger than the jump from Varejao to Noah. Be real man.

Chicago is a sports town but we don't like certain types of guys.

Media icon or not, Bron doesn't sell more jerseys than Rose and he couldn't put more fans in the seats than Rose does.

We like rooting for a hometown kid....old ladies who know nothing about basketball tune in because we have the Chicago kid who made good out of a notoriously bad neighborhood.[/QUOTE]
But comparing the rookie Lebron and the Booz of back then to the Booz of now is not fair. Lebron wasn't going to win anything during his rookie season when he was 18. Put it like this, if Lebron had Noah instead of Shaq last season, Booz instead of Jamison and Deng instead of Parker you'd see a fair comparison.

Mo Williams
Lebron
Deng
Boozer
Noah

is so much better than..

Mo Williams
Anthony Parker
Lebron
Jamison
Shaq

Its not even a contest my man..

[QUOTE=DRose.IS.da.MAN]Rose is already one of the best players in the game at 22. All of these guys are insecure haters. They spend their whole day writing these BS comments, you guys dont have anything better to do? Your life must really be invaluable if you spend your whole day hating on a player on a forum. I could only do that for my fav. player, shows how much insecure you guys are of Rose. I hate Rondo and I never go into boards writing sh1t about it, cuz i know I got better things to put my time into. Its funny, are you guys going to do this for the next 15 years?

I know with success comes a bunch of haters, but damn you guys are not just haters, but losers.[/QUOTE]
Cool down, Rose is in fact one of the best players we have today. And he is the mvp.

Rose is going to teach LeBron that you have to earn a ring in the NBA, you dont just get it, just like he's been getting things easily his whole career because of ESPN and people like you guys on his nuts

Well Rose has done exactly what Bron has proven he can do, 1 seed in regular season and win MVP, so we have to wait until playoffs to answer that question.

[QUOTE=Nash]But comparing the rookie Lebron and the Booz of back then to the Booz of now is not fair. Lebron wasn't going to win anything during his rookie season when he was 18. Put it like this, if Lebron had Noah instead of Shaq last season, Booz instead of Jamison and Deng instead of Parker you'd see a fair comparison.

Mo Williams
Lebron
Deng
Boozer
Noah

is so much better than..

Mo Williams
Anthony Parker
Lebron
Jamison
Shaq

Its not even a contest my man..[/QUOTE]

Outcome will be the same in the Playoffs, LeBron will choke

[QUOTE=DRose.IS.da.MAN]Rose is going to teach LeBron that you have to earn a ring in the NBA, you dont just get it, just like he's been getting things easily his whole career because of ESPN and people like you guys on his nuts[/QUOTE]
Lebron has earned everything he has gotten cuz he's an amazing NBA player, not cuz ESPN has thrown him down our throats. The guy is averaging 26/7/7 with both Bosh and Wade which means less touches. Thats almost a triple double which is unheard of these days in basketball.

Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

Take Wade and Kobe. I would imagine there TS% numbers are pretty similar. However, Wade misses about 1 shot less than Kobe per game to get his points. That is huge in the grand scheme of things.
[/QUOTE]
Nah.. Wade's TS is considerably higher right now. And rightfully so. He is more efficient.

In their last couple playoff runs they have comparable efficiencies(TS) and rightfully so because kobe is a better 3pt shooter, and foul shooter than wade. If the players put the same amount of points on the board and they took up the same amount of their TEAM'S possessions to get those points than by the rawest measure of efficiency they were equal. It's literally the webster textbook definition. Ratio of work done/time allotted=Points/possessions to get points.

Just because you look at a 3pt shooter as having more misses being worse overall doesn't mean the literal definition of the word efficiency can be changed. There are positives and negatives to a player shooting more threes and as I stated before, one of them is that 3pt shooters routinely change the momentum of games as much as a spectacular break away crowd roaring dunk.

You're basically just giving us your opinion on what you think of extra misses..

[QUOTE=tpols]Nah.. Wade's TS is considerably higher right now. And rightfully so. He is more efficient.

In their last couple playoff runs they have comparable efficiencies(TS) and rightfully so because kobe is a better 3pt shooter, and foul shooter than wade. If the players put the same amount of points on the board and they took up the same amount of their TEAM'S possessions to get those points than by the rawest measure of efficiency they were equal. It's literally the webster textbook definition. Ratio of work done/time allotted=Points/possessions to get points.

Just because you look at a 3pt shooter as having more misses being worse overall doesn't mean the literal definition of the word efficiency can be changed. There are positives and negatives to a player shooting more threes and as I stated before, one of them is that 3pt shooters routinely change the momentum of games as much as a spectacular break away crowd roaring dunk.

You're basically just giving us your opinion on what you think of extra misses..[/QUOTE]

Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.

Efficiency is raw data....not manipulated data. True Shooting estimates the things you are talking about and manipulates raw data. At times, it can be very accurate....other times, it can be a poor representation of scoring efficiency based on its formula as seen above.

Do you think a .3% difference is in reality indicative of the scoring efficiency of Lebron and Jordan?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.[/QUOTE]
No it's just reflecting that lebron takes way more threes than jordan.:oldlol: How do you not see this?

The reason lebron's FG is below jordans is EXACTLY because he takes triple the amount of threes, but he hits them at a rate of 50%eFG which is equal to 50%FG is terms of points scored per possesion(TS).. which is why his TS is comparable.

Compare the eFGs gino.. I haven't seen them but I bet you they're identical. I guess that stat means nothing too then.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.[/QUOTE]
You're not accounting for volume at all though. Lebron shot more 3s (2x+ as many) at a similar percentage and got to the line at a better rate. If you want to make it more simple then Jordan scored 30 on 23 shots, Lebron 28 on 20 shots. Of course, if you compare them you have to factor in perimeter rules which help players get to the line more.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.[/QUOTE]
Well, that just tells you what kind of help the GOAT had back then. Lebron has not the same help.

Harper
Jordan
Pippen
Rodman
Longley

is so much better than

Mo
Parker
Lebron
Jamison
38 year old Shaq

[QUOTE=tpols]No it's just reflecting that lebron takes way more threes than jordan.:oldlol: How do you not see this?

The reason lebron's FG is below jordans is EXACTLY because he takes triple the amount of threes, but he hits them at a rate of 50%eFG which is equal to 50%FG is terms of points scored per possesion(TS).. which is why his TS is comparable.

Compare the eFGs gino.. I haven't seen them but I bet you they're identical. I guess that stat means nothing too then.[/QUOTE]

You can't ignore the raw data. Jesus Christ. how do you not see this?

You keep saying its an opinion. Its not an opinion. You aren't using anything but an estimation that manipulates the raw data. Its your opinion of what efficiency actually is. Mine is different.

So we have Jordan making a higher percentage of field goals (counts every shot 2s and 3s) and shooting 9% better from the the ft line yet his TS percentage is virtually identical.

That is simply not accurate enough of true efficiency.