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[QUOTE=97 bulls]Its definately small. It always is when you're comaring players that good[/QUOTE]
But think about that. Barkley played very little defense. Mourning was a great defender. And Mourning was also a beast offensively as well. How can the gap be small if defense is more important?
Doesn't make sense. Mourning should be considerably better if defense is more important individually like you claim.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Thats the point. You can't do it. Even some of the best defensive players ever couldn't and can't do it. And individually (which is what this is about) is almost impossible. [B]It has to be a team thing.[/B][/quote]
Ahh I see. When the Spurs can't stop a PF, it's a "Duncan thing" (as you were basically blaming Duncan before being pressed on it), but when the Mavs can't stop one, it's a "team thing". So, when David West (a Power Forward) upped his averages to about 23 PPG and helped knock the Mavs out of the first round again in 2008... was that just Dirk "not having good enough offense"? or did his lack of defense negatively effect the series in any way whatsoever? You make it seem like individual defense is inconsequential, which obviously, it isn't. When the NO Hornets got beat by the Spurs in the next round and West's averages dropped down to normal, would you say Duncan deserved the credit or the team deserved the credit?
In Basketball I want my Star to be Elite in Offense then Defense unless he is 8ft tall with athletic ability like LeBron.
Depends on the position. I know I'd take Hakeem over Magic because of his insane impact on the defensive end. Olajuwon's scoring, play-making, etc is all secondary to me.
[QUOTE=catch24]Depends on the position. I know I'd take Hakeem over Magic because of his insane impact on the defensive end. Olajuwon's scoring, play-making, etc is all secondary to me.[/QUOTE]
but theyre not comparable coz you are comparing a big to perimeter. and hakeem too is great offensively
[QUOTE=SCdac]Ahh I see. When the Spurs can't stop a PF, it's a "Duncan thing" (as you were basically blaming Duncan before being pressed on it), but when the Mavs can't stop one, it's a "team thing". So, when David West (a Power Forward) upped his averages to about 23 PPG and helped knock the Mavs out of the first round again in 2008... was that just Dirk "not having good enough offense"? or did his lack of defense negatively effect the series in any way whatsoever? You make it seem like individual defense is inconsequential, which obviously, it isn't. When the NO Hornets got beat by the Spurs in the next round and West's averages dropped down to normal, would you say Duncan deserved the credit or the team deserved the credit?[/QUOTE]
1. I never blamed Duncan solely. I talked about both. I simply questioned his impact defensively in the series.
2. I never claimed Dirk to be a defensive force....never.
3. You are bringing up stuff that is irrelevant. David West? Duncan is light years better defensively than West is offensively. If we are going to bring up Duncan's defense...we have to compare that to the offense of an all time great offensive player like Dirk or Barkley. Not David freaking West...LOL
Great offense almost always beats great defensive individually. Great team defense vs great team offense? I'd probably lean towards great team defense.
Two totally different concepts. I guess you can't comprehend that. Sorry.
[QUOTE=catch24]Depends on the position. I know I'd take Hakeem over Magic because of his insane impact on the defensive end. Olajuwon's scoring, play-making, etc is all secondary to me.[/QUOTE]
How good was Magic defensively? Was he average, was he below average, or just above average? All I know is that he wasn't great.
[QUOTE=knicksman]but theyre not comparable coz you are comparing a big to perimeter. and hakeem too is great offensively[/QUOTE]
I know they're not comparable. I'm saying Hakeem brings more to the table, thus I'd rather build around him.
[QUOTE=Dave3]How good was Magic defensively? Was he average, was he below average, or just above average? All I know is that he wasn't great.[/QUOTE]
You couldn't put him on quick PG's (KJ, Payton, Stockton, etc). His defense wasn't horrible but I'd say below average. Much of that though is because of the Lakers offensive system. The objective of 'Showtime' was to outscore/run teams.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]1. I never blamed Duncan solely. I talked about both. I simply questioned his impact defensively in the series.
2. I never claimed Dirk to be a defensive force....never.
3. You are bringing up stuff that is irrelevant. David West? Duncan is light years better defensively than West is offensively. If we are going to bring up Duncan's defense...we have to compare that to the offense of an all time great offensive player like Dirk or Barkley. Not David freaking West...LOL
Great offense almost always beats great defensive individually. Great team defense vs great team offense? I'd probably lean towards great team defense.
Two totally different concepts. I guess you can't comprehend that. Sorry.[/QUOTE]
Maybe if basketball was one on one, then that would make irrefutable sense but what you're failing to realize is individual D is inherently a part of team defense. Basketball IS a team game, even within the context of "who would you build with ?" kinds of questions. Team aspect of basketball, even within individual defense (IE. help defense, etc) does matter.
You completely avoided my question though...
Did Dirk negatively effect that series against New Orleans with his lack of defense? In the same way that Duncan could not "stop" Dirk, wouldn't you say that Dirk not being able to "stop" David West ultimately lead to the loss for the Mavs? (David West put up 25 in the last game leading all scorers). It's not about who's known as a defensive player, it's about what lead to the loss ultimately, regardless of labels.
What I'm asking is, don't you think defense (or lack therof) is generally the "maker or breaker" of a series in todays basketball?
Don't you think neutralizing player X is just as, if not more, important than scoring x amount of points? (think, forcing Lebron into a crappy series being the tipping scale to a loss).
Let me ask you this... assuming you have two players of equal value, one who's more offensively inclined and one who's more defensively inclined... both have equal value... On a personal level, which player do you choose? Personally, I'd choose the defensive player, because I think it's a more important quality, more conducive to winning in the playoffs.
[QUOTE=Dave3]How good was Magic defensively? Was he average, was he below average, or just above average? All I know is that he wasn't great.[/QUOTE]
He was a good help defender but he was a weak man-to-man defender. I remember reading in Magic's bio saying that he would always get torched defensively during the early years of his career. Part of that was because MSU played zone while the Lakers played man-to-man.
[QUOTE=catch24]Depends on the position. I know I'd take Hakeem over Magic because of his insane impact on the defensive end. Olajuwon's scoring, play-making, etc is all secondary to me.[/QUOTE]
Magic is pretty unique so I am not so sure I would agree with this. That being said, if you ask me picking one player over the other to build around doesn't necessarily mean that one player is better than the other.
[quote]Magic is pretty unique so I am not so sure I would agree with this. That being said, if you ask me picking one player over the other to build around doesn't necessarily mean that one player is better than the other.[/QUOTE]
Magic is higher on my all-time list, but its because he was more accomplished. I love the guy, one of my favorite players ever... Hakeem though? Guy is arguable the most skilled offensive/defensive player the game's seen. I can't imagine what he'd do had he not played with trash 70% of his career.
[QUOTE=catch24]Magic is higher on my all-time list, but its because he was more accomplished. I love the guy, one of my favorite players ever... Hakeem though? Guy is arguable the most skilled offensive/defensive player the game's seen. I can't imagine what he'd do had he not played with trash 70% of his career.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. I view it the same way
Guys, we're talking solely about defense vs. offense. The things listed in the first post are the ONLY things these players are good at.
[QUOTE=SCdac]Maybe if basketball was one on one, then that would make irrefutable sense but what you're failing to realize is individual D is inherently a part of team defense. Basketball IS a team game, even within the context of "who would you build with ?" kinds of questions. Team aspect of basketball, even within individual defense (IE. help defense, etc) does matter.
You completely avoided my question though...
Did Dirk negatively effect that series against New Orleans with his lack of defense? In the same way that Duncan could not "stop" Dirk, wouldn't you say that Dirk not being able to "stop" David West ultimately lead to the loss for the Mavs? (David West put up 25 in the last game leading all scorers). It's not about who's known as a defensive player, it's about what lead to the loss ultimately, regardless of labels.
What I'm asking is, don't you think defense (or lack therof) is generally the "maker or breaker" of a series in todays basketball?
Don't you think neutralizing player X is just as, if not more, important than scoring x amount of points? (think, forcing Lebron into a crappy series being the tipping scale to a loss).
Let me ask you this... assuming you have two players of equal value, one who's more offensively inclined and one who's more defensively inclined... both have equal value... On a personal level, which player do you choose? Personally, I'd choose the defensive player, because I think it's a more important quality, more conducive to winning in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
No, I don't think Dirk negatively impacted the Hornets series. Just like I don't think Duncan negatively impacted the Mavs series. Never said such a thing.
Individual defense is of course part of team defense. I'm not discounting its importance. I just think the ability to carry a team offensively and take over in crunch time is worth more individually than being able to play great defense individually.
Furthermore, a great offensive player is pretty much a great offensive player regardless of teammates. In terms of impact at least. Defensively? I don't think the same is true to the extent it is with offense.
So you would take Garnett over Magic? Pippen over Bird? Payton over Dirk? Mourning over Barkley?
I can't answer your equal value question because that isn't realistic. Pippen is a great example of this for me. Great defender...maybe the best perimeter defender ever. Would I take him over Magic...who strictly played offense? Hell no. I think Magic was easily the higher impact player. Would I take Pippen over Barkley? Nope. Over Dirk? Nope. Would I take Pippen over Wade? Nope.
I think when you breakdown players strictly offense vs offense and defense vs defense....the overall impact is lost.
Do I think team defense is the make or break factor? Its certainly important....but so is late game execution and performance. I could just as easily argue that the difference in the finals was that Dirk was unstoppable while both Wade and Lebron struggled late in the games.
Well, maybe I can answer your question. If you have me two players of equal value and one had a specialty of defense...and the other had a specialty of late game clutch play. Give me the guy that can be consistently relied upon to be there night after night in tight games. Teams can make up for that lack of defense out of one player. Its very difficult to find a way to consistently perform in the 4th qtrs (especially in the playoffs) without an elite offense weapon.
[QUOTE=catch24]Depends on the position. I know I'd take Hakeem over Magic because of his insane impact on the defensive end. Olajuwon's scoring, play-making, etc is all secondary to me.[/QUOTE]
I think its debatable. I personally think Magic was the higher impact player. I'd take Magic. And nobody would bat an eye at me for saying so.
So if its debatable between a player that was great offensively but played almost no defense vs a player that was one of the highest impact defenders ever and also a great offensive player....
Doesn't that mean individual offense matters more? I mean, if defense was really of higher value...then Hakeem would simply have easily been a better player than Magic.
And everyone that ever watched both of them play simply knows that not to be true.