[QUOTE=RRR3]According to offensive rating Steve Kerr is the GOAT, so I wouldn't use that for your argument[/QUOTE]
context please. context.
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[QUOTE=RRR3]According to offensive rating Steve Kerr is the GOAT, so I wouldn't use that for your argument[/QUOTE]
context please. context.
average opponent defensive rating:
kobe 102.6
dirk 103.9
yes...lets get all worked up over that marginal difference and completely ignore how much better kobe's teams were.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]context please. context.[/QUOTE]
**** context. That alone is enough for me write off Offensive rating as bullshit.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]LOL....Dirk's teams have not approached Kobe's in terms of strength. Sorry....Kobe has had the clear cut edge in team strength and coaching. Not even remotely debatable. Sad that anyone could think otherwise.[/quote]
I never said they did. Kobe has had better teams, without question. The point I was trying to make was that Dirk [I]also[/I] had quality help..and there were more than a few years where his teams were considered contenders.
[quote]You do know that Kobe and Dirk are pretty much the same age...right?[/quote]
That doesn't mean much. Kobe has 4,000+ more minutes logged in. Huge difference, dude.
[quote]And we've been over this. Kobe's 10 best years.....he's only 2ppg ahead of Dirk. Thats it. On worse efficiency overall. So basically....all that superior scoring you speak of netted kobe 2 more points per game while he took 2 to 3 more shots to get there.[/quote]
On [I]marginally worse[/I] efficiency though. 2+ppg is a sizable difference. Whether Kobe used more possessions or shot a couple more field goal attempts doesn't really matter to me. If Dirk shot 2-3+ more shots could he have equaled Kobe's scoring average? Sure. But he also could have shot worse than Kobe. We really don't know.
What I do know, is that I'd take Kobe from 2006-2008 over any version of Dirk because of his scoring versatility (shoot, create his own shot and penetrate because of his superior athleticism). I'm sure you'd probably take Dirk, which is standard.
[QUOTE=Jacks3]Peak:
Kobe--35.4 PPG/56% TS
Dork--26.6 PPG/59% TS
2nd-best Peak
Kobe--32 PPG/58% TS
Dork-- 26 PPG/58% TS
30+ PPG seasons
Kobe--3
Dork--[B]0[/B]
28+ PPG seasons
Kobe--6
Dork--[B]0[/B]
40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20 (:oldlol: )
50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2 (:oldlol: )
60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0 :oldlol:
Career High--
Kobe--81
Dork--50
Damn. Dork getting shitted on. :roll:[/QUOTE]
Post-season:
29 PPG+--
Kobe--6
Dork--[B]0[/B]
30+ PPG+
Kobe--4
Dork--[B]0[/B]
30+ point games-
Kobe--80
Dork--44 (:oldlol: )
:roll: :roll: :roll:
[QUOTE=catch24]I never said they did. Kobe has had better teams, without question. The point I was trying to make was that Dirk [I]also[/I] had quality help..and there were more than a few years where his teams were considered contenders.
That doesn't mean much. Kobe has 4,000+ more minutes logged in. Huge difference, dude.
On [I]marginally worse[/I] efficiency though. 2+ppg is a sizable difference. Whether Kobe used more possessions or shot a couple more field goal attempts doesn't really matter to me. If Dirk shot 2-3+ more shots could he have equaled Kobe's scoring average? Sure. But he also could have shot worse than Kobe. We really don't know.
What I do know, is that I'd take Kobe from 2006-2008 over any version of Dirk because of his scoring versatility (shoot, create his own shot and penetrate because of his superior athleticism). I'm sure you'd probably take Dirk, which is standard.[/QUOTE]
You can't just ask to throw out 4 years of a players career (29% of his playoff career)...and then turn around and talk about mileage. What about Dirk playing overseas when he was younger? Does that not mean anything. Or the fact that Dirk has missed far less games than Kobe throughout this career. Or that Dirk played 20 minutes a game his first year while kobe played 16? Or that Dirk played 36 minutes his 2nd year while kobe played 26? How about the fact that Dirk has started 968 games while Kobe has only started 955?
I guess it only matters for Kobe though...right? We should ignore Dirk starting pro ball in 1994 in Germany.....
And how is 2 ppg a true gap while the other efficiency is marginal? Makes absolutely no sense. Kobe scored those 2 points on at minimum 3 extra used offensive possessions per game. That makes it marginal. Its dirk scoring at 33% to match Kobe. LOL....easy. And its actually probably more possessions used giving Dirk's far superior ft shooting.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You can't just ask to throw out 4 years of a players career (29% of his playoff career)...and then turn around and talk about mileage.[/quote]
When did I throw out Kobe's first 4 years?
:confusedshrug:
[quote]What about Dirk playing overseas when he was younger? Does that not mean anything.[/quote]
Overseas for a season =/= an 82 game NBA season now?
[QUOTE=catch24]When did I throw out Kobe's first 4 years?
:confusedshrug:
Overseas for a season =/= an 82 game NBA season now?[/QUOTE]
you said you only wanted to compare primes. that is throwing out a large portion of kobe's playoff play. at least 29%.
never said overseas was the exact same, but you have to understand that Dirk is the same age and had mileage on his legs early on as well. and Dirk has started more games and dirk has missed less games. i'm not sure mileage works all the well here. i mean kobe played a small role his first year. something like 15 minutes a game and i don't think he started more than a handful of games. he also played (as usual) on a loaded roster. the lakers won 56 games that year. kobe missed 11 games in year 1. kobe then only started 1 game his 2nd year. the lakers won 61 games. of course mileage matters, but lets not ignore that kobe had it pretty damn easy those first few years.
and even then, we are already throwing out kobe's worst 4 years in the playoffs....i'm not sure how much more you can ask for in a comparison.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What?
I think playing with a top 8 player of all time in Shaq to take the pressure off more than makes up for the difference in defense quality.
So lets get this straight:
1. You want me to remove 4 years of Kobe's career (that equates to 29% by the way)
2. You want me to ignore that Kobe played on the most stacked teams by far of this era.
3. You want me to ignore that Dirk had to carry his teams more than Kobe did and played with worse teammates and far worse coaching.
4. You want me to heavily factor in everything that favors Kobe.
Sound about right?[/QUOTE]
Your assumption isn't based on anything. Kobe was a more efficient player without Shaq than with him.
1. I want to you to use your brain if you are seriously looking at career PER numbers. Use common sense. If we assume both players are equal one player accumulating data at 18 is going to fare worse than a player who starts collecting data at 22.
2. I want you to quantify how playing with one all star, no 6th men award winners, no 1st team all defensive team winners = the most stacked team of the era.
3. I want you to consider a world where Dirk doesn't choke early on his career. Consider the perception of his teammates and his coaches if the Mavs won 5 out 7 rings in the last decade. Your common mistake is equating a result of Dirk's repeated failures as a positive. The Mavs were not favored so blah blah blah. They were the underdog so blah blah blah... The coaching was bad so blah blah blah. No Dirk's failures led to them being labeled as chokers which in term left them unimpressive to the betting public and his multiple award winning coaches had to be the scapegoat.
4. NBA history favors Kobe. :confusedshrug: What do you want me to tell you? Kobe is only behind Kareem and Jordan for the most playoff points scored of all time. Dirk can schedule 10 more one series flameouts against the Warriors (with impressive PER numbers of course :oldlol: ) and it still won't change that.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]you said you only wanted to compare primes. that is throwing out a large portion of kobe's playoff play. at least 29%.[/quote]
Nope, I was originally comparing their peaks. That's it. What I said was Kobe, at his peak..was the better scorer.
[quote]never said overseas was the exact same, but you have to understand that Dirk is the same age and had mileage on his legs early on as well. and Dirk has started more games and dirk has missed less games. i'm not sure mileage works all the well here.[/quote]
I just don't think think its the same. You gotta consider the physicality of the NBA (more so during Kobe's early years..prior to the rules changes), where the best competiton is at. What makes Kobe's scoring even more impressive is the fact he did it while being his teams #1 playmaker and defender.
Look at the numbers Jacks3 posted. Only Wilt Chamberlain and Michael Jordan rival those type of scoring binges.
[QUOTE=PTB Fan]KG. I mean, he's a top 5 PF. I have him ranked 3rd on my list. His defense, all around game, impact and productiveness are the reason why he gets ranked so high.
When he got decent team mates in Minny, he took them pretty deep into the playoffs and won the MVP. Seriously, it's KG by far. And this is coming from a big Dirk fan.[/QUOTE]
This. Dork has become massively overrated. Dude is nothing more than a one-dimensional chucker. Crappy rebounder (LMAO @ dude only grabbing 8 RPG at PF last year), shitty defender, and a mediocre passer/play-maker.
He's never been the best player in the league or even close.
Hell, he only has a couple years where he's even top 5.
Pretty much every year there are about 4-6 better players than him. :oldlol:
And now I hear he's top 20 ever and better than clearly superior players like Barkley,Malone, and KG. What a joke. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Your assumption isn't based on anything. Kobe was a more efficient player without Shaq than with him.
1. I want to you to use your brain if you are seriously looking at career PER numbers. Use common sense. If we assume both players are equal one player accumulating data at 18 is going to fare worse than a player who starts collecting data at 22.
2. I want you to quantify how playing with one all star, no 6th men award winners, no 1st team all defensive team winners = the most stacked team of the era.
3. I want you to consider a world where Dirk doesn't choke early on his career. Consider the perception of his teammates and his coaches if the Mavs won 5 out 7 rings in the last decade. Your common mistake is equating a result of Dirk's repeated failures as a positive. The Mavs were not favored so blah blah blah. They were the underdog so blah blah blah... The coaching was bad so blah blah blah. No Dirk's failures led to them being labeled as chokers which in term left them unimpressive to the betting public and his multiple award winning coaches had to be the scapegoat.
4. NBA history favors Kobe. :confusedshrug: What do you want me to tell you? Kobe is only behind Kareem and Jordan for the most playoff points scored of all time. Dirk can schedule 10 more one series flameouts against the Warriors (with impressive PER numbers of course :oldlol: ) and it still won't change that.[/QUOTE]
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
I like how the Mavs clearly relied on Dirk more but Kobe's usage percentage during the Shaq threepeat in the playoffs is higher than Dirk's CAREER usage percentage in the playoffs.
:oldlol:
I have KG higher, not too much of a gap though.
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Your assumption isn't based on anything. Kobe was a more efficient player without Shaq than with him.
1. I want to you to use your brain if you are seriously looking at career PER numbers. Use common sense. If we assume both players are equal one player accumulating data at 18 is going to fare worse than a player who starts collecting data at 22.
2. I want you to quantify how playing with one all star, no 6th men award winners, no 1st team all defensive team winners = the most stacked team of the era.
3. I want you to consider a world where Dirk doesn't choke early on his career. Consider the perception of his teammates and his coaches if the Mavs won 5 out 7 rings in the last decade. Your common mistake is equating a result of Dirk's repeated failures as a positive. The Mavs were not favored so blah blah blah. They were the underdog so blah blah blah... The coaching was bad so blah blah blah. No Dirk's failures led to them being labeled as chokers which in term left them unimpressive to the betting public and his multiple award winning coaches had to be the scapegoat.
4. NBA history favors Kobe. :confusedshrug: What do you want me to tell you? Kobe is only behind Kareem and Jordan for the most playoff points scored of all time. Dirk can schedule 10 more one series flameouts against the Warriors (with impressive PER numbers of course :oldlol: ) and it still won't change that.[/QUOTE]
You are completely changing the argument....which is standard.
Has Kobe not had repeated failures in the playoffs? We've been over them all. And they can be directly related to his play. Dirk? Not so much. You have the Warriors series....but really that is the only true failure for Dirk's career.
Kobe has plenty. You call him a 5 time champion and ignore circumstances...again...standard.
This is about scoring in the playoffs. That is what i've been talking about. I don't see any scoring/offensive measures that lead to the conclusion that Kobe is in a different league than Dirk as a scorer.
Dirk beats him across the board in everything if you compare their entire playoff careers. We don't do that though because kobe deserves special treatment....again..standard.
So what do we find when we go 10 best vs 10 best? That while Kobe scores 2 more ppg, he needed 2 to 3 more shots per game to get that. He needed 3 to 4 more possessions when you factor in his higher turnover rate and much worse ft shooting. So Dirk scores 2 less ppg while beating Kobe solidly in overall efficiency and all offensive ratings such as otrg and offensive win shares. Dirk also beats Kobe all time in playoff PER....not that big of a deal, but yet another measure that favors dirk.
So I'm really not sure what ring count has to do with this...or the fact that you are still so lost that you think dirk was ever a choker. Or the fact that you ignore Kobe's spotty at best history in the playoffs of laying down in elimination games and coming up extremely small in the finals for a player of his stature. Putting forth one of the worst finals performances by a star player ever.
But again, you have changed the argument to a ring count...as usual...because you lost.
Nothing supports Kobe being a better playoffs scorer than Dirk....even when you chop off 29% of Kobe's playoff career....LOL