Explain to me why Rose didn't deserve the 2011 MVP

Another thing about Dwight and his leadership factor: When playing Sacramento the coach takes him off of DMC, a rookie, in a key game. DMC torches Orlando and the game is very close throughout. Dwight doesn't say let me guard him. Here he is the defensive player of the year, with maybe two tough guards at his position in the league, and a rookie is decimating the team and getting 26 or 28 points on Orlando.

Unless Rose got into very early foul trouble which might not have happened, he guarded every PG himself and would have told Thibes let me guard him without question. Westbrook didn't guard Rose, but Rose guarded Westbrook. There was not one PG the entire season that could say that got off on Rose. And the PG position was loaded. He outplayed them all and held them to impressive shooting percentages across the line (Nash, Rondo, Derron Williams were hit hardest).

[QUOTE=KyrieTheFuture]This is longest bullshit post I've ever seen[/QUOTE]

I concur. And the fact that he seems to hold D12 responsible for guarding All-NBA PGs I can see why he doesn't believe he should have won.

[QUOTE=KyrieTheFuture]This is longest bullshit post I've ever seen[/QUOTE]
I gather you just learned how to read anyway. One day when you grow up you will know how to present your thoughts. Please refute something or the BS that fills you will pile up.

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]I concur. And the fact that he seems to hold D12 responsible for guarding All-NBA PGs I can see why he doesn't believe he should have won.[/QUOTE]

D12 was suppose to hold a rookie center - that was made very [B]very[/B] [SIZE="4"]very [/SIZE]clear. Rose guarded a much more talented group of offensive minded guards than DH guarded centers - where not one center was polished offensively. And when he does get one, a rookie at that, he doesn't have the leadership to say I got this. Rose fully respected Thibes but it wasn't going to go down like that.

Aren't you the guy that said Rose was the 8th best defensive player on the team??? Rose was the best backcourt defender on the team. The team was top three in perimeter defense. No elite opposing PG came off on Chicago the whole year. It doesn't get anymore thorough than that. I know I can't think of any SG much less a PG that held a healthy Wade like Rose did. So to say Rose wasn't a key part of their defense is major crap. Third leading PG in rebounds too. Which is higher than Noah and Boozer at their positions. Rose was definitely first or second among PG in blocks as well. Nobody else on the team was ranked among the top in their position. Name me somebody else at their position that held down the elite like Rose did at PG that year? DH didn't even take the assignment.

Please refute what I am saying.

I think Rose really deserved that MVP. Then again, I also think Nash deserved those 2 MVPs he has, so I guess I don't follow popular opinion.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Another thing about Dwight and his leadership factor: When playing Sacramento the coach takes him off of DMC, a rookie, in a key game. DMC torches Orlando and the game is very close throughout. Dwight doesn't say let me guard him. Here he is the defensive player of the year, with maybe two tough guards at his position in the league, and a rookie is decimating the team and getting 26 or 28 points on Orlando.

Unless Rose got into very early foul trouble which might not have happened, he guarded every PG himself and would have told Thibes let me guard him without question. Westbrook didn't guard Rose, but Rose guarded Westbrook. There was not one PG the entire season that could say that got off on Rose. And the PG position was loaded. He outplayed them all and held them to impressive shooting percentages across the line (Nash, Rondo, Derron Williams were hit hardest).[/QUOTE]
More of dat ETHER

[QUOTE=Pointguard]D12 was suppose to hold a rookie center - that was made very [B]very[/B] [SIZE="4"]very [/SIZE]clear. Rose guarded a much more talented group of offensive minded guards than DH guarded centers - where not one center was polished offensively. And when he does get one, a rookie at that, he doesn't have the leadership to say I got this. Rose fully respected Thibes but it wasn't going to go down like that.

Please refute what I am saying.[/QUOTE]

You talking about one regular season game? You giving D12 crap because of one game bro? Damn lol.

Ah hell just read your Username. NM lol.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Both Lebron and Derrick Rose had lets humiliate Dwight Howard days and I think that really affected his getting votes.[/QUOTE]

LeBron with that 51 point game sure, but Rose didn't humiliate Dwight.

[QUOTE=Mr Exlax]You talking about one regular season game? You giving D12 crap because of one game bro? Damn lol.

Ah hell just read your Username. NM lol.[/QUOTE]
Leadership in the middle of March is critical at every game especially when you are MVP when MVP candidate Rose and co. just finished beating Orlando team twice in practically one game. And increased their lead by six games in three weeks. Name me the one game all season long where Rose wasn't up to that task. Dwight Howard gets maybe two hard assignments ALL MONTH.

I'm giveing DH crap over letting Lebron come into his house talking about his boss. Then the DMC game and then the Bulls game where Rose scored and took more shots in the paint than him and then his lack of urgency in March and April and his dumb play of getting suspended for two games in the stretch. So about 12 games in critical March/April and the one that got his GM or President upset in January.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]LeBron with that 51 point game sure, but Rose didn't humiliate Dwight.[/quote]
Maybe not. But Rose took more shots in the paint than DH did. DH was frustrated, got suspended for the next game and Orlando was no longer anything that Chicago had to worry about. Maybe not humiliation, but if you are confused as to who was stepping up and who was exiting stage left, its on you. One was holding center stage and it wasn't DH.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]1. Cherrypicking is not what you call counting every single game.

2. When I got to specific years it was because of you.

3. In the year you just mentioned....



They were on a 68 win pace with him.....

33 wins.

7 losses.

.825.

67.65 wins in 82.

You can pretend that playing at a pace equivalent of the 3rd best record of all time isnt much different from playing at a 3rd to 5th seed(depending on the year) pace.

Thats on you.

I find it rather different. Different like....being last years Heat record wise....or a little worse than Memphis?

Quite a bit larger than the difference between wins with and without a lot of MVPs. Id estimate...10-12 wins is a usual dropoff. Wilts 76ers....won 57. Jordans Bulls 55. Kareems bucks swapped him for a good 4 and won the same number of games. Oscars team I think was about the same. Rick Barry left and his team won I think 50-55 when he went to the ABA. Birds Celtics maybe from 55 to 42 is close? Great players dont tend to make as much of an impact on wins as one might assume.

Not on really good teams.[/QUOTE]
10-12 wins difference from an MVP player? Really?

Just take the rookie arrival of Chamberlain, Baylor, Robertson, Robinson, Jabbar, Bird, Duncan (slight cheat here with Robinson returning from injury).

Look at the drop off after the retirement of Magic, Robertson, Jordan ('98).

Look at what every metric estimates. The "strong" MVPs (i.e. those who actually are the best player, not best player on good/surprising team or "we're tiding of giving it to X so why not give it to ...") e.g. LeBron 2010 (his weakest MVP year stats wise) Hollinger EWA gives him 30.5 on the loose end, Win Shares gives him 18.5 on the mean end of the spectrum, Pelton WARP gave him 25.4 wins above that which a replacement level player would give).

The dropoffs cited are after trades in which whilst certainly not recieving equal value teams got multiple pieces, some quality ones. In Robertson's case they lost 3 more games but had Norm Van Lier and Tiny Archibald instead at the pg spot.

The non trade ones are Barry (not an MVP), and Jordan which is an odd one. A combination of the arrival of Kukoc, growth of Pippen (and Pippen being fresh after a significant down year following the Olympics), Horace Grant playing for a contract, an amazing coach doing a great job and the Bulls not really being as good as their record (their MoV accounting for their schedule should have won them 50 games).

Anyhow if you don't mind MVP being a good player on a good team/surprising team, or player who has high contextual value (rubbish backup, nobody else provides their specific skill or whatever) then Rose, like Unseld, Iverson, Cowens et al, is fine.

Personally I don't like it when it doesn't go to the best player, especially when the idea that they'd trade players (straight up, not looking long term or at injuries) before, during and after the season are all laughable.

Rose was a very good player that year. He just wasn't at the level I associate with MVP or playing as well James, Wade, Howard our Paul.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]This. Replace Rose with Brandon Jennings and the Bulls are just as good.

When you look at guys like Deng, Noah, Asik, Korver, Gibson, Boozer and so on, its almost unbelievable how stacked that roster was with nothing but quality players. Replace Rose and put a CP3 on that roster, that's a chip.


I'm yet to hear a single argument other than team success for rose to deserve MVP.[/QUOTE]
I'd agree with what DMavs posted. But come on. Not Jennings. Paul and they'd be better, Westbrook maybe just as good shot creating pgs and they'd get most of the value they got from Rose. But they wouldn't lose nothing by putting in a middling pg like Jennings was (and to a degree still is).

[QUOTE=Owl]10-12 wins difference from an MVP player? Really?

Just take the rookie arrival of Chamberlain, Baylor, Robertson, Robinson, Jabbar, Bird, Duncan (slight cheat here with Robinson returning from injury).

Look at the drop off after the retirement of Magic, Robertson, Jordan ('98).

Look at what every metric estimates. The "strong" MVPs (i.e. those who actually are the best player, not best player on good/surprising team or "we're tiding of giving it to X so why not give it to ...") e.g. LeBron 2010 (his weakest MVP year stats wise) Hollinger EWA gives him 30.5 on the loose end, Win Shares gives him 18.5 on the mean end of the spectrum, Pelton WARP gave him 25.4 wins above that which a replacement level player would give).

The dropoffs cited are after trades in which whilst certainly not recieving equal value teams got multiple pieces, some quality ones. In Robertson's case they lost 3 more games but had Norm Van Lier and Tiny Archibald instead at the pg spot.

The non trade ones are Barry (not an MVP), and Jordan which is an odd one. A combination of the arrival of Kukoc, growth of Pippen (and Pippen being fresh after a significant down year following the Olympics), Horace Grant playing for a contract, an amazing coach doing a great job and the Bulls not really being as good as their record (their MoV accounting for their schedule should have won them 50 games).

Anyhow if you don't mind MVP being a good player on a good team/surprising team, or player who has high contextual value (rubbish backup, nobody else provides their specific skill or whatever) then Rose, like Unseld, Iverson, Cowens et al, is fine.

Personally I don't like it when it doesn't go to the best player, especially when the idea that they'd trade players (straight up, not looking long term or at injuries) before, during and after the season are all laughable.

Rose was a very good player that year. He just wasn't at the level I associate with MVP or playing as well James, Wade, Howard our Paul.


I'd agree with what DMavs posted. But come on. Not Jennings. Paul and they'd be better, Westbrook maybe just as good shot creating pgs and they'd get most of the value they got from Rose. But they wouldn't lose nothing by putting in a middling pg like Jennings was (and to a degree still is).[/QUOTE]
I think you misunderstand. I don't mean Jennings from 2011. I mean current brandon Jennings. Current Jennings is no worse than 2011 rose.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]I think you misunderstand. I don't mean Jennings from 2011. I mean current brandon Jennings. Current Jennings is no worse than 2011 rose.[/QUOTE]
I did misinterpret. Come on though. Even current Jennings. "No worse than Rose"? Really?

[QUOTE=Owl]I did misinterpret. Come on though. Even current Jennings. "No worse than Rose"? Really?[/QUOTE]
What's so much better about Rose than current Jennings? Seriously? Other than being on a better team, what?

Put current Jennings on that stacked bulls roster with elite defense, elite rebounding, elite team passing, COTY, ETC... You honestly don't think he could manage to shoot 44% and dish out 7.7 assists?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]D12 was suppose to hold a rookie center - that was made very [B]very[/B] [SIZE="4"]very [/SIZE]clear. Rose guarded a much more talented group of offensive minded guards than DH guarded centers - where not one center was polished offensively. And when he does get one, a rookie at that, he doesn't have the leadership to say I got this. Rose fully respected Thibes but it wasn't going to go down like that.

Aren't you the guy that said Rose was the 8th best defensive player on the team??? Rose was the best backcourt defender on the team. The team was top three in perimeter defense. No elite opposing PG came off on Chicago the whole year. It doesn't get anymore thorough than that. I know I can't think of any SG much less a PG that held a healthy Wade like Rose did. So to say Rose wasn't a key part of their defense is major crap. Third leading PG in rebounds too. Which is higher than Noah and Boozer at their positions. Rose was definitely first or second among PG in blocks as well. Nobody else on the team was ranked among the top in their position. Name me somebody else at their position that held down the elite like Rose did at PG that year? DH didn't even take the assignment.

[B]Please refute what I am saying[/B].[/QUOTE]


Well that will be easy enough.

DRose was a TERRIBLE defender for the Bulls in his MVP season. My ANY metric. Lets look at the most popular ones:

DRTG (my least favorite def metric). Rose was not only not in the top 8 defenders on the team he was next to last in DRTG on the team (of anyone that played 30min+ for the season). Only Kyle Korver (who was sent packing despite his league best shooting because of his porous defense) ranked worse.

On/Off (Far better). With the league "MVP" on the floor the Bulls allowed 103.0 points/48 min. With DRose on the bench the Bulls stiffened to 95.3. That is an ENORMOUS chasm.

RAPM (Best). DRose's offense by this metric was VERY good and among the top 9 in the league. However, his defense dropped him all the way to #32 in the league. This is nowhere near any MVP since RAPM figures are available. At least Nash was at least the #1 RAPM OFF player when he was winning his MVPs (his D was terrible too). The difference, for example, between Deng's RAPM defense and DRose's is literally more than the complete benefit of Kobe Bryant PLUS David West added to a team.

The last argument that keeps getting made is that Rose did more with less. Its makes no sense. They had Asik, the best rebounder in the NBA playing 15mpg because they were so stacked. In fact, in the ~19 games worth of court time without Rose on the floor the Bulls played to +5.1pts/48 of their opponents. Extrapolated to a full season that would make them ~5th best team in the NBA. Meanwhile, with LeBron off the floor the Heat were actually OUTSCORED.

And you have no basic comprehension of HOW D12's defensive effectiveness works. I wouldn't speak to it any more.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]What's so much better about Rose than current Jennings? Seriously? Other than being on a better team, what?

Put current Jennings on that stacked bulls roster with elite defense, elite rebounding, elite team passing, COTY, ETC... You honestly don't think he could manage to shoot 44% and dish out 7.7 assists?[/QUOTE]
The thing is I've established I agree with a lot of their percieved overachievement comes from the things mentioned (elite D, Thibs).

But what does Jennings do better? Shoot 3s. Numerically you could argue turn the ball over less though when you account for usage they're near enough the same.

What does he do worse? Shoot 2 pointers, finish at the rim, draw fouls, shoot free throws (all of which make Rose an efficient scorer, Jennings merely an okayish one). Volume of scoring (this is big and when combined with efficiency very big). Pass. Avoid fouls. Rebound. Defend.

Even where the advantages are little ones, they all add up.

Whatever you think of his MVP, Rose was a top 10 player. Jennings probably isn't a top 50 one.

cf: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=jennibr01&y1=2013&p2=rosede01&y2=2011[/url]