Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

[quote]
Where do you get this idea that Maxwell sucked? Between 79 and 81 in both field goal percentage and offensive rating he was

1
1
3

In win shares those years, he was
5
3
7

He was a very good offensive rebounder, great around the basket and had some clutch moments. Definitely the kind of guy any team could use.[/QUOTE]


That's something else Magic didn't get credit for in his first 4 years, Magic was a superior offensive rebounder to Bird (or Maxwell) RS or postseason. That's something that escaped these talks as well.

Maxwell was a 14 and 5 guy most of his career that only took very safe shots. He wasn't a skilled player. I"ll give you useful but finals MVP is a bit crazy.

Kind of agree with KevinNYC that Bird should have gotten the '81 Finals MVP. He was fighting peak Moses virtually even on the boards (15.3 vs 16.3) and led both teams in assists (7.0) and steals (2.3) by a large margin.

[U]Series Stats[/U]

Bird: 15.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.5 bpg on 41.9 %FG/46.0 %TS
Maxwell: 17.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.2 spg, 1.0 bpg on 56.8 %FG/61.1 %TS

[U]Stats in Wins[/U]

Bird: 16.0 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 8.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 43.8 %FG/46.5 %TS
Maxwell: 19.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 0.3 spg, 1.3 bpg on 57.7 %FG/62.5 %TS

But let's break it down game-by-game shall we?

Game 1 [B] Bird: 18/21/9 on 52.9%[/B] Maxwell: 10/9/5 on 33.3%

Game 2 [B]Bird: 19/21/3 on 44.4%[/B] Maxwell: 6/4/2 on 37.5%

Game 3 Bird: 8/13/10 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 19/10/0 on 56.3%[/B]

Game 4 Bird: 8/12/7 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 24/14/1 on 64.3%[/B]

Game 5 Bird: 12/12/8 on 31.3% [B]Maxwell: 28/15/3 on 76.9%[/B]

Game 6 [B]Bird: 26/13/5 on 55.0%[/B] Maxwell: 19/5/6 on 63.6%

Looking at the overall statline Bird easily bests Maxwell in Game 1, 2, and 6. Even in Game 3 the gap isn't big considering Larry's all-around play with 10 assists and 5 steals. And he only took 11 shots after all. The only Boston win where Maxwell was clearly better is in Game 5 and it was a pivotal game.

Ultimately it's not a travesty or anything. Cedric deserved it but Bird could have easily gotten it and deserved it as well. Bird probably slightly more if you ask me...

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]I was imprecise. The following is Unequaled since 1981.
In an NBA Finals, averaging
15 or more points,
15 or more rebounds
7 or more assists

I've posted elsewhere on this board about this, but his coach was surprised Maxwell won it, he expected it to be Bird especially as he was clearly the best player in the closeout game. Maxwell didn't have 6 good games either. He also had a couple of off nights. So he ended up average about 17 ppg for the series not a giant advance over Bird's 15ppg. Field goal percentage was the only place Maxwell was clearly better than Bird that series. In my mind that's just not enough difference to be ahead of Bird's other stats. Bird also had 2.3 steals a game that series. He shot poorly, but his all around play was pretty darn high.

Here are the players who averaged more than 15 rebounds in the NBA finals series since 1981.

Moses Malone 16.3 1981
Larry Bird 15.3 1981
Moses Malone 18.3 1983
Shaq 16.3 2000
Shaq 15.8 2001
Duncan 17.0 2003

It's only happened 5 times in 32 years. It's a rare thing. Of course, of those guys Bird is the only lead both teams in assists.

Where do you get this idea that Maxwell sucked? Between 79 and 81 in both field goal percentage and offensive rating he was

1
1
3

In win shares those years, he was
5
3
7

He was a very good offensive rebounder, great around the basket and had some clutch moments. Definitely the kind of guy any team could use.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[B]Not just since 1981, I believe, but rather ever, which is even crazier.[/B]

[QUOTE=dankok8]Kind of agree with KevinNYC that Bird should have gotten the '81 Finals MVP. He was fighting peak Moses virtually even on the boards (15.3 vs 16.3) and led both teams in assists (7.0) and steals (2.3) by a large margin.

[U]Series Stats[/U]

Bird: 15.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.5 bpg on 41.9 %FG/46.0 %TS
Maxwell: 17.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.2 spg, 1.0 bpg on 56.8 %FG/61.1 %TS

[U]Stats in Wins[/U]

Bird: 16.0 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 8.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 43.8 %FG/46.5 %TS
Maxwell: 19.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 0.3 spg, 1.3 bpg on 57.7 %FG/62.5 %TS

But let's break it down game-by-game shall we?

Game 1 [B] Bird: 18/21/9 on 52.9%[/B] Maxwell: 10/9/5 on 33.3%

Game 2 [B]Bird: 19/21/3 on 44.4%[/B] Maxwell: 6/4/2 on 37.5%

Game 3 Bird: 8/13/10 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 19/10/0 on 56.3%[/B]

Game 4 Bird: 8/12/7 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 24/14/1 on 64.3%[/B]

Game 5 Bird: 12/12/8 on 31.3% [B]Maxwell: 28/15/3 on 76.9%[/B]

Game 6 [B]Bird: 26/13/5 on 55.0%[/B] Maxwell: 19/5/6 on 63.6%

Looking at the overall statline Bird easily bests Maxwell in Game 1, 2, and 6. Even in Game 3 the gap isn't big considering Larry's all-around play with 10 assists and 5 steals. And he only took 11 shots after all. The only Boston win where Maxwell was clearly better is in Game 5 and it was a pivotal game.

Ultimately it's not a travesty or anything. Cedric deserved it but Bird could have easily gotten it and deserved it as well. Bird probably slightly more if you ask me...[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[B]Max was pretty good, consistent with his scoring and also clutch but seriously that FMVP belongs to Larry. Difference of 3 ppg is not really big, Cornbread with much higher FG% even though Bird was above in FT%, still everything else just goes to Bird by a clear margin, plus he killed the reigning MVP in the ECF so most attention on him (that's why the big assists also even with Tiny handling the ball), and he came through in the final game6, very clutch.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7jCwThefw4[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXOAs4Gz5A[/url][/B]

Doesn't really matter if Maxwell won Finals MVP, Bird was the leader of the team and should get credit for it.

Having said that, Magic was clearly the better Finals performer.

[QUOTE=dankok8]

But let's break it down game-by-game shall we?

Game 1 [B] Bird: 18/21/9 on 52.9%[/B] Maxwell: 10/9/5 on 33.3%
[B]Celtics win by 3[/B]

Game 2 [B]Bird: 19/21/3 on 44.4%[/B] Maxwell: 6/4/2 on 37.5%
[B]Celtic lose by 2[/B]

Game 3 Bird: 8/13/10 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 19/10/0 on 56.3%[/B]
[B]Boston wins by 23[/B]

Game 4 Bird: 8/12/7 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 24/14/1 on 64.3%[/B]
[B]Boston loses by 5[/B]

Game 5 Bird: 12/12/8 on 31.3% [B]Maxwell: 28/15/3 on 76.9%[/B]
[B]Boston wins by 29[/B]

Game 6 [B]Bird: 26/13/5 on 55.0%[/B] Maxwell: 19/5/6 on 63.6%
[B]Boston wins by 11.[/B]

Looking at the overall statline Bird easily bests Maxwell in Game 1, 2, and 6. Even in Game 3 the gap isn't big considering Larry's all-around play with 10 assists and 5 steals. And he only took 11 shots after all. The only Boston win where Maxwell was clearly better is in Game 5 and it was a pivotal game.
[/QUOTE]

If Maxwell had 6 solid games, I would have no problem saying they picked the right guy, but he didn't. My argument is the only way you can pick Maxwell is if you go solely by points/shooting and ignore the other aspects of the game. You could argue that if in game 2 Maxwell had his average game the Celtics go up 2-0

So Bird basically had three really poor shooting games. However, two of these are near triple doubles and the Celtics went 2-1 in them. Also these wins were blowouts where the Celtics won by their defense. These two wins were also Maxwell's big games. He scored a lot because the Celtics fast break was working.

Remember this was before "triple-double" was a common phrase and the standard for measuring a great all around game. Tweak Bird's stats a bit and he has 3 triple doubles in 6 games.

One extra assist in game 1.
[B]Another made basket in game 3.
Two extra assists in game 5.

These[/B] are his bad games too.

I think the reason Maxwell won it, was

A. The voters valued scoring/shooting way more that other parts of the game
B. Maxwell performing this well as unusual as Bird shooting this badly. It was like they missed game 6 which was a big game for Bird and a close game until Bird put it away with a really nice run in the fourth.

Bird had a poor shooting series is true. Bird had a bad series is simply not true.

[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1124491/3/index.htm[/url]

Article from 1981 on the Series.

[QUOTE=ThePhantomCreep]They most certainly do not.

Oh and, 1979-1983 Magic > 1989-1983 Bird especially when you factor postseason play[/QUOTE]
Yes they do, you don't have to be smart to know this, though you do need to wash off magics aids infested semen of your glasses

[QUOTE=CelticBaller]Yes they do, you don't have to be smart to know this, though you do need to wash off magics aids infested semen of your glasses[/QUOTE]

The OP's stats favor Magic by a clear margin. Crawl out of Bird's short shorts and take a look.

Here's a good post by Fatal9 that covers Kareem's career in the 70's:

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4986678&postcount=110"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4986678&postcount=110[/URL]

[QUOTE=jlip]@ dankok8
I think you meant, links that prove Magic> Bird before '87?

Anyways...

I have no personal agenda here as a lifelong Magic fan who feels that his overall ranking is higher than Bird's, but I would like to see a response to your request in bold. Not particularly from Laz, but anyone. In my [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241244"]80's Bird GOAT conversation thread,[/URL], there were several declarations between '84 and '88 that Bird may have been the GOAT. Admittedly I haven't look as diligently, but I haven't found the same reports for Magic prior to 1987.[/QUOTE]

In their first four years in the league together, almost every media outlet had the two rated about even...except in the MVP balloting. And again, the reason for that? Magic's reputation for supposedly getting Westhead fired (and I debunked that myth here a while back), and two, KAJ taking votes from Magic. And, you could add Magic's injury in 80-81, which set him back, as well.

In any case, I just spent about five minutes googling Magic, and came up with these three. Take them anyway you want, but at that time, the two were considered near equals...

[url]http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2013/04/wayback-machine-part-viii-1982-complete.html[/url]

[QUOTE]5) Bird's CHPB profile began with these words: "Belongs in a higher league...Absolutely the best all-around player in the universe. Could carry the Celtics on a dynasty trip." [B]Despite that lofty praise, a good case could be made that--contrary to the way things were reported by many media outlets at the time--Bird never equaled or surpassed Magic Johnson[/B]: Johnson beat Bird head to head in the 1979 NCAA Championship Game, Johnson won Finals MVP honors as a rookie--guiding the Lakers to victory over a Philadelphia team that routed Bird's Celtics 4-1 in the Eastern Conference Finals--and Johnson ultimately topped Bird five to three in NBA championships, including the league's first back to back titles since Bill Russell retired. Ironically, by the time that Johnson finally received his due vis a vis Bird a new star eclipsed both of them: Michael Jordan won the much heralded MJ versus MJ showdown in the 1991 Finals, bested Johnson's repeat accomplishment by leading the Bulls to a three-peat and then came out of retirement to win a second three-peat.[/QUOTE]


[url]http://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/09/sports/magic-johnson-learns-lesson.html[/url]

[QUOTE]In his third pro season, the 22-year-old Johnson has been thinking and playing as well as anyone else. He became only the third player to attain 700 rebounds and 700 assists in a season. For the third consecutive year, he led the league in steals, averaging 2.67. Now 6-9, he was the league's best forward in rebounding, grabbing 9.63 a game, good for 11th place over all. Magical Statistics

And in the playoffs, he has been, well, magical. In the Lakers' four-game semifinal sweep of Phoenix, he had three ''triple doubles'' - that is, he attained double figures in scoring, rebounds and assists in three games. He failed to make a sweep, getting nine assists in the other game.

The Lakers open the four-of-seven-game Western Conference final against the San Antonio Spurs here Sunday.[B] If Johnson is not universally considered the best all-round player in the game, he is at least No. 1-A, behind Larry Bird. But the kind of swift fall from the heights that he had once experienced in his backyard happened to him earlier this season[/B]. On Nov. 18, he made the mistake of thinking, for an ill-timed public moment, that he and Paul Westhead, then the coach, could not work together.[/QUOTE]


[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004649/1/index.htm[/url]

[QUOTE][B]They would never be even again. Magic's talents were peaking, and he was assuming more and more of the offensive burden for the Lakers. In 1984-85 he scored 37 points to outdo Bird's 33 as the Lakers won the second L.A.-Boston meeting of the season 117-111. That was a prelude to the Finals rematch in the spring[/B].

The Celtics won the first game of that series 148-114, but the humbled Lakers rallied around their captain, Abdul-Jabbar, to win Game 2, in Boston. After the teams split Games 3 and 4, Kareem had 36 points and Magic contributed 26 points and 17 assists as L.A. took control of the playoffs with a 120-111 victory at the Forum. The Lakers regained the championship in Boston, beating the Celtics 111-100 with series MVP Abdul-Jabbar scoring 29 and Magic turning in a triple double of 14 points, 10 rebounds and 14 assists.

The next season was a triumph for Bird and a frustration for Magic. Boston had 67 regular-season victories and then won the championship by defeating Houston in six games. Bird was now even with Magic where it counted most: Each had won three championships in his seven years in the league. The Lakers had been upset by the Rockets in the Western Conference finals, and Riley speculated aloud that perhaps Los Angeles fans should start lowering their sights.

That judgment turned out to be premature, for the 1986-87 Lakers turned out to be one of the best teams of all time. Magic, unquestionably the league's best player, won the first of his three MVP awards. "For overall contributions, nobody else was close," said Bird. He would know; he had three regular-season MVP titles of his own.

Among Magic's sweet triumphs in the 1986-87 season was the victory that snapped a 38-game Celtic winning streak at Boston Garden. Even more spectacular was a February meeting between the two teams in Los Angeles. Entering the game, the Celtics and the Lakers had identical records (37-12). L.A. rallied from a 17-point third-quarter deficit behind Magic's heroics (39 points, seven rebounds and 10 assists) to sweep the season series. "I don't remember many regular-season games," Riley says, "but I remember that one. I can still see Magic coming out of a spin for a key three-point play and then running by our bench with a big grin."

The Lakers were prohibitive favorites in the 1987 Finals, both because they were so good and because the Celtics were plagued by injuries and lacked depth. And, indeed, it turned out to be a Magic show from start to finish. He began with 29 points and 13 assists in L.A.'s opening-game victory and followed that with 22 points and 20 assists as the Lakers went up 2-0. He added 32 points in Game 3, even though the Celtics pulled out a victory. Then came that epic fourth game.

The hook shot that won the game was Magic's newest trick. He had been working on it with Abdul-Jabbar and called it his "junior, junior skyhook." One of the hallmarks of the Magic-Bird rivalry was the way each expanded his game over the years. Magic added a hook and lengthened the range on his set shot

[QUOTE=dankok8]Kind of agree with KevinNYC that Bird should have gotten the '81 Finals MVP. He was fighting peak Moses virtually even on the boards (15.3 vs 16.3) and led both teams in assists (7.0) and steals (2.3) by a large margin.

[U]Series Stats[/U]

Bird: 15.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.5 bpg on 41.9 %FG/46.0 %TS
Maxwell: 17.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.2 spg, 1.0 bpg on 56.8 %FG/61.1 %TS

[U]Stats in Wins[/U]

Bird: 16.0 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 8.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 43.8 %FG/46.5 %TS
Maxwell: 19.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 0.3 spg, 1.3 bpg on 57.7 %FG/62.5 %TS

But let's break it down game-by-game shall we?

Game 1 [B] Bird: 18/21/9 on 52.9%[/B] Maxwell: 10/9/5 on 33.3%

Game 2 [B]Bird: 19/21/3 on 44.4%[/B] Maxwell: 6/4/2 on 37.5%

Game 3 Bird: 8/13/10 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 19/10/0 on 56.3%[/B]

Game 4 Bird: 8/12/7 on 27.3% [B]Maxwell: 24/14/1 on 64.3%[/B]

Game 5 Bird: 12/12/8 on 31.3% [B]Maxwell: 28/15/3 on 76.9%[/B]

Game 6 [B]Bird: 26/13/5 on 55.0%[/B] Maxwell: 19/5/6 on 63.6%

Looking at the overall statline Bird easily bests Maxwell in Game 1, 2, and 6. Even in Game 3 the gap isn't big considering Larry's all-around play with 10 assists and 5 steals. And he only took 11 shots after all. The only Boston win where Maxwell was clearly better is in Game 5 and it was a pivotal game.

Ultimately it's not a travesty or anything. Cedric deserved it but Bird could have easily gotten it and deserved it as well. [B]Bird probably slightly more if you ask me..[/B].[/QUOTE]

Of course. If we were to ask YOU.

BTW, the voting was 6-1 for Maxwell in that Finals.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]In their first four years in the league together, almost every media outlet had the two rated about even...except in the MVP balloting. And again, the reason for that? Magic's reputation for supposedly getting Westhead fired (and I debunked that myth here a while back), and two, KAJ taking votes from Magic. And, you could add Magic's injury in 80-81, which set him back, as well.

In any case, I just spent about five minutes googling Magic, and came up with these three. Take them anyway you want, but at that time, the two were considered near equals...

[url]http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2013/04/wayback-machine-part-viii-1982-complete.html[/url]




[url]http://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/09/sports/magic-johnson-learns-lesson.html[/url]




[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004649/1/index.htm[/url]



And virtually no one had Bird higher from 86-87 on.

But I have never been a fan of opinions or quotes because you can find them until the cows come home.

What we do KNOW, however, that in their post-season play from '80 thru '84, Magic was CLEARLY the better player. And, even in the middle of Bird's MVP "three-peat", Magic was the better post-season player, and clearly better in their H2H Finals. Again, Bird was the FIFTH best player on the floor in the '85 Finals, and was not even the best player on his own team.

And from '87 on, Magic just blew Bird away.

In terms of career, H2H's, rings, post-season play, you name it...Magic was the better of the two.[/QUOTE]

Nowhere in those quotes does anyone say Magic > Bird. In one of the posts they say Magic is either the [U]best all-around player[/U] or #1 A. to Bird. Pippen was considered the best all-around player in the 90's. Was he better than Jordan?

Sorry but those posts aren't any kind of evidence.

[QUOTE]Of course. If we were to ask YOU.

BTW, the voting was 6-1 for Maxwell in that Finals.
[/QUOTE]

Maxwell getting it isn't a travesty by any means but Bird could have won it too. He had great impact overall.

[QUOTE=dankok8]Nowhere in those quotes does anyone say Magic > Bird. In one of the posts they say Magic is either the [U]best all-around player[/U] or #1 A. to Bird. Pippen was considered the best all-around player in the 90's. Was he better than Jordan?

Sorry but those posts aren't any kind of evidence.



Maxwell getting it isn't a travesty by any means but Bird could have won it too. He had great impact overall.[/QUOTE]

Again...a perspective from a supposed "Magic" fan...

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Again...a perspective from a supposed "Magic" fan...[/QUOTE]

Just because I love Magic doesn't mean I have to hate or underrate Bird.

Incidently, for the clowns who somehow believe that Magic was not a capable scorer...

how about this stretch from his 86-87 season...

31
34
25
17 (oh wait...35 minutes, 9 FGAs, and 18 assists)
34
38
46
30
28
4 (29 minutes, 4 FGAs, 18 assists, in a 140-104 win)
32
26
20
25
38
26
31
26
42
19
29
25

Take away those two games in which he obviously didn't even try...

and in those 20 games...

30.5 ppg, (and BTW, he averaged 11 apg in those 20 games, as well.)