The GOAT List: 2014 Edition

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#144 Deron Williams
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 9 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #1/#2 on solid playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 19-3-10-1 on 46/83
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]iming is everything in life. For Deron Williams he had the misfortune timing of coming out of the University of Illinois as a top prospect at the same time as Chris Paul, the highly celebrated guard from Wake Forest. Though Williams had more team success, reaching the National Championship game as a junior, the dynamic Paul was considered by most the top guard prospect. Most observers believed that Atlanta, with the second pick would take Paul, perhaps this is why Utah, with the third pick seemed locked in on taking Williams, which they did even after Atlanta surprised many by selecting Marvin Williams second. Paul slide to four and many questioned or laughed at both Atlanta and Utah, who needed point guards for passing on the sure thing. From that moment on Paul and Williams were constantly being compared and Deron would always be judged by two standards. How well he played and how well he played compared to Paul. When Williams averaged a respectable 10-5 as a rookie, the critics continued to shake their heads when Paul won rookie of the year averaging 16-9. The next season the Jazz won 51 games, ten more than the previous year and 25 more than they year before D-Will arrived. They advanced to the Western Conference Finals with Williams averaging 19-9 for the playoffs (16-9 in the regular season). Paul and the Hornets missed the playoffs again and the debate was heating up.

Williams had another excellent season in 2007-08 setting career highs for points (18.8), assists (10.5), FG% (.507) and FT% (.803). Even with Williams doing everything within reason, Paul still gained the upper-hand having his best season and being considered by many the leagues MVP. The next two seasons Williams averaged 19-11 again and the debate raged on. Though most seemed to think Paul is the better player, it was becoming very clear that Williams was in his right, a star. In 2010 he made his second all-NBA team and the Jazz went to the playoffs for a fourth straight year. For a while it almost didn

[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]Excellent question, rife with possibilities and hypotheticals only a Borgesian literary genius could reasonably speculate without stacking the deck.

First, which team would they be drafted in, and how would their presence affect their hypothetical nba teams in the next 5-10 seasons?

Second, how would their presence affect other teams as a chain reaction, how they draft and shape their teams in adjustment?

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Nobody's biting?

:whatever:

ETA: this thread is thoroughly enjoyable, largely because it is quite informative about players prior to my time (1991) and each bio is detailed enough to get a feel for the player. Again, wonderful job, GOAT. :cheers:

Would u ever try and post a "scouting report" for certain players you've compiled enough data on?

I think that's the biggest thing missing anywhere: books, zines, internet, etc.

[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]Nobody's biting?

:whatever:

ETA: this thread is thoroughly enjoyable, largely because it is quite informative about players prior to my time (1991) and each bio is detailed enough to get a feel for the player. Again, wonderful job, GOAT. :cheers:

Would u ever try and post a "scouting report" for certain players you've compiled enough data on?

I think that's the biggest thing missing anywhere: books, zines, internet, etc.[/QUOTE]
Both would have been drafted in 1964. Both being from Brooklyn would have been territorial picks. I'm not sure if a team could take more than one pick a season. Willis Reed was also drafted that season.

Brown or Hawkins. Not sure who was better in their high school days.

But it wouldn't matter as the Knicks had the first pick that season too. They didnt take R43d 1st but 8th or 1st 2nd round pick. Jim Barnes was the first pick for NYC.


C Willis Reed
PF Connie Hawkins
SF Johnny Green
SG Roger Brown
PG Whoever (Tom Gola)


With this they don't get Walt Frazier a few years later.

I followed the Paul vs Williams debate from the start. I always felt i would pick Williams because he was bigger and stronger. And he played very well in head to head against Paul. But his play the last few years was pretty bad. with all the young PGs the NBA now he is an afterthought and i think he will not bounce back.

That's a lot of work, man.


Will you edit it as the seasons come and go, and people win/lose/break some record?

[QUOTE=played0ut]That's a lot of work, man.

Will you edit it as the seasons come and go, and people win/lose/break some record?[/QUOTE]

No, but if I am still alive in three years and so is ISH I'll do a new list. My rankings change every week. As much as I know now, there is still way more I have to learn.



[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]Would u ever try and post a "scouting report" for certain players you've compiled enough data on?

I think that's the biggest thing missing anywhere: books, zines, internet, etc.[/QUOTE]

That would be a dream project for me. I've always enjoyed scouting/tendency evaluation. However I don't believe

The problem is I don't have an adequate understanding of most players pre-1984 because of the lack of film available. I try to compile as much of a scouting report as I can into the bios of the older players, but it's most anecdotal praise, not critical evaluation. I have, as have many others here, been able to pick up on some tendencies and strengths/weaknesses of many of the highest regarded older players, but at best were looking at 3% of their body of work. I just watched a video of every shot block Anthony Davis had this year. I've now seen him block more individual shots than Russell and Chamberlain combined. To say putting together a legitimate scouting report would be a tall task is an understatement.

[QUOTE=L.A. Jazz]I followed the Paul vs Williams debate from the start. I always felt i would pick Williams because he was bigger and stronger. And he played very well in head to head against Paul. But his play the last few years was pretty bad. with all the young PGs the NBA now he is an afterthought and i think he will not bounce back.[/QUOTE]

Do you have any knowledge of the Sloan/Williams feud and how does that aspect of his career change your view, if at all?

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Do you have any knowledge of the Sloan/Williams feud and how does that aspect of his career change your view, if at all?[/QUOTE]
No, i dont. i only read this article last year:

[URL="https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/utah-owner-goes-record-night-deron-williams-drove-144019005.html"]https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/utah-owner-goes-record-night-deron-williams-drove-144019005.html[/URL]

What do you imply?
That Sloans desicion was wrong because Deron from this point on felt he could win any battle against any coach?

Great thread

Btw I thought about the Marion thing and one of the more interesting comparisons IMO is Reggie miller. I'm assuming miller will be on here at some point(though it wouldnt hurt my feelings if he wasn't) but offensively their games are more similar than you'd think. Both were 20 ppg scorers who couldn't create their own look but could get open if someone else could get them the ball. Obviously they got to those 20 ppg differently and millers shooting had a gravitational effect that Marion never had. But Marion's dive cuts had their own gravity and he was better at everything but shooting.

[QUOTE=raiderfan19]Btw I thought about the Marion thing and one of the more interesting comparisons IMO is Reggie miller. I'm assuming miller will be on here at some point(though it wouldnt hurt my feelings if he wasn't) but offensively their games are more similar than you'd think. Both were 20 ppg scorers who couldn't create their own look but could get open if someone else could get them the ball. Obviously they got to those 20 ppg differently and millers shooting had a gravitational effect that Marion never had. But Marion's dive cuts had their own gravity and he was better at everything but shooting.[/QUOTE]
You can't build a team around Marion. You Could With Miller.

on Bob Love: There was a documentary on hin similar to the Mike Ray Richardson one. Its sad that after his player career he became a dishwasher for a restaurant.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]You can't build a team around Marion. You Could With Miller.

on Bob Love: There was a documentary on hin similar to the Mike Ray Richardson one. Its sad that after his player career he became a dishwasher for a restaurant.[/QUOTE]
You can't really build a team around either but you could come as close with Marion as you could Reggie. Then again Reggie is one of the 3 or 4 most overrated players of all time

[QUOTE=raiderfan19]You can't' really build a team around either but you could come as close with Marion as you could Reggie. Then again Reggie is one of the 3 or 4 most overrated players of all time[/QUOTE]
A guy who took his team to the Finals and deep in the playoffs countless times in the 90s you can't build around?

Marion would be Derrick McKey on Reggie teams.

A team built for Shawn Marion would look like.

PG Mark Jackson
SG John Starks
SF Shawn Marion
PF Otis Thorpe
C Tyson Chandler

even on a team like like this Otis Thorpe might be the go to guy. You can't build around a guy who doesn't get plays drawn for him.

They both scored off of assisted plays all the time and elite all time off the ball movement. 80% of Reggie's career playoff buckets were off of assists. The 7 seconds or less suns were built around Marion as much as the pacers were built around miller. Nash was obviously the engine but that team doesn't work without Marion running the break on the wing as well as anyone in the league, rebounding like an elite big, being able to hit 3s and being able to defend everyone but centers. The saddest thing about that team is that everyone forgets how vital Marion was, even though it was obvious with how much worse the suns got after the shaq trade.

But Miller was the Pacers best player by a long shot. Marion 3rd best behind Nash and Amare. All I'm saying is if Shawn Marion is the teams best player they're not going far at all. As for Miller 2 games away from an ring.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]But Miller was the Pacers best player by a long shot. Marion 3rd best behind Nash and Amare. .[/QUOTE]
No he wasnt and amare was only better than Marion in 05.