Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen's as a leader

I have no doubt Pippen was a net positive in terms of the locker room. No doubt about that at all.

If I'm building a team, I want Scottie Pippen on it, no doubt.

But if you're asking me do I want Scottie Pippen to be THE leader on my team?

That's a trickier question as I don't know if I'd feel comfortable with him as the defacto leader.

He showed at times an ability to get rattled under pressure or to go MIA in certain moments.

I'd rather have a player with the mentality of a Jordan or Bird or Magic in that role of the defacto leader of my team over a Pippen.

We see even players like LeBron sometimes shrink in those tough situations, so it happens.

But Pippen is still a great player.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Look you are entitled to your view. Even though I rarely agree with you on anything relating to the 90's Bulls you always put forward legitimate, thoughtful points. You are a serious poster, unlike some.

I am interested to see your reaction when I post the quotes from his teammates and some others and see if that changes your view on this. I limited it to Jackson because he had so many quotes and because Jackson is the leading authority on this matter for his Chicago days.

The one thing I will say is you are conflating being the best player and some other things that are not the type of leadership we are talking about. We are talking about leadership in the sense of getting others in the group to do things, improving their performance and morale, etc. You are thinking a lot about leadership in the sense of productivity. Game 7 is a perfect example. For all we know he could have given the basketball equivalent of the Gettysburg address in the huddle--and it didn't work. What you are looking at is his productivity (or lack thereof in that case).

What is overlooked, and probably because it is the kind of little detail that is not remembered, is he dislocated his finger in the middle of Game 5. It was a fluke thing like going for a rebound and hitting Sabonis. He was shooting 47% in the series up to that point; he shot in the low 30's in Games 6, 7 and the rest of Game 5. What you seem to be requiring of him is actually what he did in Game 5. He came out guns blazing and had 22/6/3/6/4 to stave off elimination. He lacked the ability, due to his injury, to perform that way in the remaining games. He did show the instinct, though, previous to that injury. Read any press account of Game 5 of the WCF. He did the same thing as a player at various other points in the playoffs, i.e. the Jazz series and the Minnesota series. It was Pippen who hit the game winner to eliminate Utah.

My last paragraph is about the basketball productivity question. As far as being a team leader, he was widely acknowledged as Portland's leader during those years. This was acknowledged by players, coaches and the press. The Portland newspaper referred to him as the leader when he got in the HOF.



[url]http://articles.latimes.com/2000/may/23/sports/sp-33158[/url]



[url]http://blog.oregonlive.com/nba/2010/08/nba_high-5_45.html[/url]



[url]http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2010/02/blazers_top_40_no_18_scottie_p.html[/url]

So these are from the Portland newspaper from people who covered the team. That is what I am saying. The same things are said by coach after coach, player after player, reporter after reporter about him. It is either one big conspiracy or it is the truth.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Soundwave]I have no doubt Pippen was a net positive in terms of the locker room. No doubt about that at all.

If I'm building a team, I want Scottie Pippen on it, no doubt.

But if you're asking me do I want Scottie Pippen to be THE leader on my team?

That's a trickier question as I don't know if I'd feel comfortable with him as the defacto leader.

He showed at times an ability to get rattled under pressure or to go MIA in certain moments. And that happens and its nothing to be that ashamed of, not many players period are cut out to handle that type of situation with regularity.

We see if players like LeBron sometimes shrink in those situations.

I'd rather have a player with the mentality of a Jordan or Bird or Magic in that role of the defacto leader of my team.

But Pippen is still a great player.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://24.media.tumblr.com/156dbd7dabdbe19764d7cdb705df9cd0/tumblr_ml7vt1MH6x1qiz3j8o1_r1_500.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Soundwave]I'm just going on Pippen's own record ...

He wasn't a great leader in Houston or Portland. He bickered with teammates in Houston, unable to find a proper role (despite being hailed as a player that would sacrifice anything for the team ... so which is it? You can't have it both ways) and couldn't lead Portland when they needed leadership the most.
[/QUOTE]
He was an old man even by the time he went to Houston. And whats more. Is just because his team lost doesn't mean hes not a great leader. Only one team can win. And even then they werent favored to win. Imagine that? A team loses a series to a team with a better record than theirs. Why are you putting this standard on Pippen when no other player has been able to meet it?

[QUOTE]Someone needed to step up in that game 7 when season was collapsing around them, and no one did. [/QUOTE]
Get off the tit already. You act like their the only team to give up a 15 pt lead. How does this prove anything? Especially when he was the catalyst when the Bulls did the exact same thing in 92.

[QUOTE]Refusing to go into a game with the season on the line because the play isn't called for you is a huge black mark. I can't even think of too many players who cracked so visibly under stress than that.[/QUOTE]
Dont be ridiculous bro. You act like he did this every year. How many times has this been mentioned in this thread? Can you come with some new material?

[QUOTE]He's a great player, but even removing Jordan entirely from the equation, I don't think he's a "great leader" per se. Good leader who was most comfortable being an auxiliary to Jordan, sure. But guys like Magic and Russell are great leaders. You're not going to choose a Scottie Pippen led team over a Jordan or Magic or Bird led team if your life depended on it. [/QUOTE]
Im going with the best team. Even more, how many times did a Magic led team lose to a team they should've beat? You sure you would bet your life on Magics ability to lead a team?

[QUOTE]I don't think he was THE leader of the Bulls (that was Jordan). Nor do I think he's one of the all-time great leaders in basketball history (too many examples of when he wasn't). He was a terrific player though.[/QUOTE]
How arrogant do you have to be? Phil Jackson. The coach of the Bulls, said he was. Wow.

[QUOTE]That's a trickier question as I don't know if I'd feel comfortable with him as the defacto leader.

He showed at times an ability to get rattled under pressure or to go MIA in certain moments. And that happens and its nothing to be that ashamed of, not many players period are cut out to handle that type of situation with regularity. [/QUOTE]

That is a different, more nuanced argument. What MJ stans repeatedly said for years is he was a poor leader.

He was the clear primary leader of a team that had the second best record in the league and came within minutes of the Finals, where they would have been heavy favorites (the WCF was the real Finals back then). Remember, the team they lost to was a 67-15 team with a peak Shaq--Shaq's very best year--and Kobe. If Pippen went to Portland in 99' instead of 00' there likely would have been a different result for the 99' team. The 00' Lakers were simply too strong. He continued in that leadership role for another three seasons, although after 00' he was diminished as a player. What people never mention about the 15 point collapse is the role Sabonis getting a 5th ticky tack foul had in that game. That is what triggered the slide.

He did not like the press spotlight. I agree with that but that is more of an external issue, i.e. being the face of a franchise, and not relevant to what happens on the court. Other than 1.8 second-gate, nothing like that happened before or after.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]He was an old man even by the time he went to Houston. And whats more. Is just because his team lost doesn't mean hes not a great leader. Only one team can win. And even then they werent favored to win. Imagine that? A team loses a series to a team with a better record than theirs. Why are you putting this standard on Pippen when no other player has been able to meet it?


Get off the tit already. You act like their the only team to give up a 15 pt lead. How does this prove anything? Especially when he was the catalyst when the Bulls did the exact same thing in 92.


Dont be ridiculous bro. You act like he did this every year. How many times has this been mentioned in this thread? Can you come with some new material?


Im going with the best team. Even more, how many times did a Magic led team lose to a team they should've beat? You sure you would bet your life on Magics ability to lead a team?


How arrogant do you have to be? Phil Jackson. The coach of the Bulls, said he was. Wow.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iEroc81WejHX6.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Look you are entitled to your view. Even though I rarely agree with you on anything relating to the 90's Bulls you always put forward legitimate, thoughtful points. You are a serious poster, unlike some.

I am interested to see your reaction when I post the quotes from his teammates and some others and see if that changes your view on this. I limited it to Jackson because he had so many quotes and because Jackson is the leading authority on this matter for his Chicago days.

The one thing I will say is you are conflating being the best player and some other things that are not the type of leadership we are talking about. We are talking about leadership in the sense of getting others in the group to do things, improving their performance and morale, etc. You are thinking a lot about leadership in the sense of productivity. Game 7 is a perfect example. For all we know he could have given the basketball equivalent of the Gettysburg address in the huddle--and it didn't work. What you are looking at is his productivity (or lack thereof in that case).

What is overlooked, and probably because it is the kind of little detail that is not remembered, is he dislocated his finger in the middle of Game 5. It was a fluke thing like going for a rebound and hitting Sabonis. He was shooting 47% in the series up to that point; he shot in the low 30's in Games 6, 7 and the rest of Game 5. What you seem to be requiring of him is actually what he did in Game 5. He came out guns blazing and had 22/6/3/6/4 to stave off elimination. He lacked the ability, due to his injury, to perform that way in the remaining games. He did show the instinct, though, previous to that injury. Read any press account of Game 5 of the WCF. He did the same thing as a player at various other points in the playoffs, i.e. the Jazz series and the Minnesota series. It was Pippen who hit the game winner to eliminate Utah.

My last paragraph is about the basketball productivity question. As far as being a team leader, he was widely acknowledged as Portland's leader during those years. This was acknowledged by players, coaches and the press. The Portland newspaper referred to him as the leader when he got in the HOF.



[url]http://articles.latimes.com/2000/may/23/sports/sp-33158[/url]



[url]http://blog.oregonlive.com/nba/2010/08/nba_high-5_45.html[/url]



[url]http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2010/02/blazers_top_40_no_18_scottie_p.html[/url]

So these are from the Portland newspaper from people who covered the team. That is what I am saying. The same things are said by coach after coach, player after player, reporter after reporter about him. It is either one big conspiracy or it is the truth.



I proved that Pippen was a leader--refuting years of attacks from people like you and other MJ stans on Pip in that regard. :cheers:

Yeah, I agree, MJ is my co-GOAT along with KAJ.[/QUOTE]
When did I say Pippen wasn't a leader on the Bulls?:wtf: Like I said before your delusional. They were Co captains and that's all needs to be said. Mj was the best player and Pippen his second fiddle. What's to discuss?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]He was an old man even by the time he went to Houston. And whats more. Is just because his team lost doesn't mean hes not a great leader. Only one team can win. And even then they werent favored to win. Imagine that? A team loses a series to a team with a better record than theirs. Why are you putting this standard on Pippen when no other player has been able to meet it?


Get off the tit already. You act like their the only team to give up a 15 pt lead. How does this prove anything? Especially when he was the catalyst when the Bulls did the exact same thing in 92.


Dont be ridiculous bro. You act like he did this every year. How many times has this been mentioned in this thread? Can you come with some new material?


Im going with the best team. Even more, how many times did a Magic led team lose to a team they should've beat? You sure you would bet your life on Magics ability to lead a team?


How arrogant do you have to be? Phil Jackson. The coach of the Bulls, said he was. Wow.[/QUOTE]

I'm stating three clear examples, one being incredibly egregious.

And 33 is not an "old man". A 33-year-old Jordan would win the title with that Rockets team with not much fuss. So would a 33-year-old Bryant most likely.

So I disagree. He played every game for the Rockets and led them in minutes too.

Pippen himself has many times Michael was their leader and the greatest to ever play, etc. etc. etc. so why even try to manufacture a debate here? There really isn't one.

"Michael's our leader, so we feed off that, and he showed why tonight by taking his game to another level. That's what he does." is pretty much like the standard sound bite you'd get from Scottie on any given night after the game.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]I'm stating three clear examples, one being incredibly egregious.

And 33 is not an "old man". A 33-year-old Jordan would win the title with that Rockets team with not much fuss. So would a 33-year-old Bryant most likely.

So I disagree. He played every game for the Rockets and led them in minutes too.

Pippen himself has many times Michael was their leader and the greatest to ever play, etc. etc. etc. so if there why even try to manufacture a debate here? There really isn't one.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://31.media.tumblr.com/a8238c1159ed2c428c0b9610e668895d/tumblr_my2lplvDF71qeuiqyo6_500.gif[/IMG]

Jordan also would say Pippen was the best player on the team. It is funny how MJ fans invoke Pippen quotes on MJ but ignore the opposite. Magic? MJ is the one who compared Pippen to Magic and Bird--and it was done in a private interview if I recall correctly, not a public statement to pump up Pippen.

juju, maybe I confused you with another MJ stan.

[QUOTE]And 33 is not an "old man". [/QUOTE]

He was a shell of himself after the 98' back injury-which came on top of various other injuries in the preceding year, i.e. foot, neck. He was 33 with the mileage of a 35-36 year old when you count his deep playoff runs and his 2 Olympics.

Why do MJ fans dwell on one year in Houston and ignore four years in Portland? He did not fit in Houston's offense where they made him a spot up shooter a la Bosh in Miami. That did not suit his game. He did in fact lead a team to Game 7 of the WCF--and that team probably came within minutes of a ring.

MJ fans say the Wizards years should not even be spoken of. So why dwell on Houston?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Jordan also would say Pippen was the best player on the team. It is funny how MJ fans invoke Pippen quotes on MJ but ignore the opposite. Magic? MJ is the one who compared Pippen to Magic and Bird--and it was done in a private interview if I recall correctly, not a public statement to pump up Pippen.

juju, maybe I confused you with another MJ stan.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/rOEHMbN.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Jordan also would say Pippen was the best player on the team. It is funny how MJ fans invoke Pippen quotes on MJ but ignore the opposite. Magic? MJ is the one who compared Pippen to Magic and Bird--and it was done in a private interview if I recall correctly, not a public statement to pump up Pippen.

juju, maybe I confused you with another MJ stan.



He was a shell of himself after the 98' back injury-which came on top of various other injuries in the preceding year, i.e. foot, neck. He was 33 with the mileage of a 35-36 year old when you count his deep playoff runs and his 2 Olympics.

Why do MJ fans dwell on one year in Houston and ignore four years in Portland? He did not fit in Houston's offense where they made him a spot up shooter a la Bosh in Miami. That did not suit his game. He did in fact lead a team to Game 7 of the WCF--and that team probably came within minutes of a ring.

MJ fans say the Wizards years should not even be spoken of. So why dwell on Houston?[/QUOTE]
I'm not a MJ Stan first of all. I just think Mj is the Goat. Ask your friend 97 bulls who defends Pippen with him when it's not a agenda to downgrade MJ. I defend Pippen all the time, just not against someone like you who clearly has a agenda to downgrade MJ. Like I said before They were Co captains and one was a second fiddle. All facts. You don't like Facts or context. Just like the other thread when you making it seem 88 Pippen wasn't a role player and I had to constantly call you out for you to admit it.:lol Mj1984-98 best player on the Bulls Fact:applause:

I don't have an "agenda." I have various biases. We all do.

[QUOTE]I'm not a MJ Stan[/QUOTE]

:coleman:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Jordan also would say Pippen was the best player on the team. It is funny how MJ fans invoke Pippen quotes on MJ but ignore the opposite. Magic? MJ is the one who compared Pippen to Magic and Bird--and it was done in a private interview if I recall correctly, not a public statement to pump up Pippen.

juju, maybe I confused you with another MJ stan.



He was a shell of himself after the 98' back injury-which came on top of various other injuries in the preceding year, i.e. foot, neck. He was 33 with the mileage of a 35-36 year old when you count his deep playoff runs and his 2 Olympics.

Why do MJ fans dwell on one year in Houston and ignore four years in Portland? He did not fit in Houston's offense where they made him a spot up shooter a la Bosh in Miami. That did not suit his game. He did in fact lead a team to Game 7 of the WCF--and that team probably came within minutes of a ring.

MJ fans say the Wizards years should not even be spoken of. So why dwell on Houston?[/QUOTE]

You act like Pippen played 5000 years ago. I saw Pippen play. I watched that Rockets season.

He wasn't ineffective because he was hurt, he was ineffective because he couldn't get his game to fit in with that team. That's all there is to it.

The difference between the Wizards years is Jordan was legit 40 years old. A 34/35 year old Jordan still wins the title in place of Pippen on those Rockets and Blazers teams, 33 year old Jordan there isn't even a doubt.

Not to mention the 98-99 season had a very extended off-season of like 6 months. There was plenty of time to recover and recuperate.

I would've in fact liked to have seen Jordan go play elsewhere for a year too in 98-99, I think he could've won another title in say New York or somewhere else. That would've been better than the Wizards stint which I wasn't personally a fan of, but really that's his life and he owed no one anything, if he wanted to play a couple of years before his legs completely gave out just for his own enjoyment, it's not for a fan to say you should or shouldn't.

Stop with the "why do Jordan fans ..." nonsense, just because someone doesn't agree with every point, make a counter point or stop hiding behind that sad agenda.

I've said many times Pippen was a great player. But the Bulls were Jordan's team. And he was the best player on every Bulls championship team by a long shot. Kinda comes with the territory of being the GOAT.

You're telling me 99' Pippen had the same athletic ability 98' Pippen had? Even 98' Pippen had declined a bit. Pippen peaked from 1994-1996 and then gradually declined in subsequent years. After the 98' injury he simply couldn't perform at an elite level anymore (at least not on a consistent basis). In 99' and 00' he was still a good player, especially on defense. After that he declined further in 2001-2003 where he was a role player and in his final year, 2004, he was useless and only played about 20 games.

Saying 99' Pippen was 33 and the same as prime Pippen is like saying 32 year old Wade this year was comparable to prime Wade. They did not get the luxury of declining gradually due to various injuries. Amare, unfortunately, is another example of this. He became a role player at age 30.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]I'm stating three clear examples, one being incredibly egregious.[/QUOTE]
Three examples of a stellar 18 year career. How many times did he come through?

[QUOTE]And 33 is not an "old man". A 33-year-old Jordan would win the title with that Rockets team with not much fuss. So would a 33-year-old Bryant most likely.[/QUOTE]
When I say old man I mean mileage on his body. Jordan had took a two year hiatus from basketball. So his 33 wasnt like Pippens. Think about Pippens career and the games hes played. From 90 to 98.

1990
Lost game seven in eastern conference final seven games

1991
Won NBA Finals then went to play in the Olympics. Remeber how Jordan hemmed and hawed about having to play with the dreamteam because he wanted to rest?

1992
Won NBA Finals

1993
Won NBA Finals

1994
Lost in the semis that went seven games

1995
lost in the semis that went six games

1996
Won NBA Finals then went to play in the Olympics

1997
Won NBA finals then rehabbed an injured foot

1998
Won NBA Finals then had surgery on his back again.


1999
At 33 plays 40 min and every game of the season

2000
Loses in the conference final in seven games.


[QUOTE]So I disagree. He played every game for the Rockets and led them in minutes too. [/QUOTE]
But he had a lot of miles on that body. And his minutes shouldve decreased. 40 min for any 33 year old is insane.

[QUOTE]Pippen himself has many times Michael was their leader and the greatest to ever play, etc. etc. etc. so why even try to manufacture a debate here? There really isn't one.[/QUOTE]
Michael Jordan called the 96 Bulls Pippens team. They were co leaders.

[QUOTE]"Michael's our leader, so we feed off that, and he showed why tonight by taking his game to another level. That's what he does." is pretty much like the standard sound bite you'd get from Scottie on any given night after the game.[/QUOTE]
Very true.