Coach Thibbs: "When Jordan was playing..."

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]

b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player [B][SIZE="4"]adjacent to paint area[/SIZE][/B]).

[/QUOTE]
You have trolled me hard here and now i'm pissed.

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866782&postcount=121][u]I have posted[/u][/url] the old and new defensive 3 seconds rules itt several times and explained the difference, but you apparently didn't read the posts, because here you are reciting the rules to me and completely ignoring what the rules actually say.

The old rule (bolded above) says defenders can stay in the lane if their man is "ADJACENT TO THE PAINT", while the new rule says defenders can only stay in the lane if their man is within "ARMSLENGTH" ([url=http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html][u]here's the link[/u][/url] to the "armslength" language - it's the 2nd sentence in the first paragraph).

"Adjacent" and "armslength" don't mean the same thing - do you think they do?... The "armslength" language from the new rule forces today's defenders to tippy-toe in and out of the lane on a continual basis to remain within physical reach - previous eras didn't have to tippy-toe because defenders could stay in the lane [I]even if[/I] their man was OUT of armslength reach, as long as they were still "adjacent to the paint".

Here's a GIF where Bill Cartwright is out of "armslength" reach of long-armed Mark Eaton, so Eaton would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game.... but back then, Eaton was fine because Cartwright was "adjacent to the paint"... notice how Eaton could care less about a tippy-toe.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6c47d055cfff266f26bde61297986cf.gif[/IMG]

btw, how is it that you are content to argue your case without offering ANY viewable evidence?... you say today's defenses have equal paint defense, but you can't show it visually... otoh, for me, i've gotten pretty efficient at it - it takes me less than 90 seconds to both [I]find and create[/I] a GIF of defenders camping under the rim in previous eras... after all, it happened on literally every possession.

[QUOTE=3ball]You have trolled me hard here and now i'm pissed.

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866782&postcount=121][u]I have posted[/u][/url] the old and new defensive 3 seconds rules itt several times and explained the difference, but you apparently didn't read the posts, because here you are reciting the rules to me and completely ignoring what the rules actually say.

The old rule (bolded above) says defenders can stay in the lane if their man is "ADJACENT TO THE PAINT", while the new rule says defenders can only stay in the lane if their man is within "ARMSLENGTH" ([url=http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html][u]here's the link[/u][/url] to the "armslength" language - it's the 2nd sentence in the first paragraph).

"Adjacent" and "armslength" don't mean the same thing - do you think they do?... The "armslength" language from the new rule forces today's defenders to tippy-toe in and out of the lane on a continual basis to remain within physical reach - previous eras didn't have to tippy-toe because defenders could stay in the lane [I]even if[/I] their man was OUT of armslength reach, but still "adjacent to the paint".

Here's a GIF where Bill Cartwright is out of "armslength" reach of long-armed Mark Eaton, so Eaton would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game.... but back then, Eaton was fine because Cartwright was "adjacent to the paint".

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6c47d055cfff266f26bde61297986cf.gif[/IMG]

btw, how is it that you are content to argue your case without offering ANY viewable evidence?... you say today's defenses have equal paint defense, but you can't show it visually... otoh, for me, i've gotten pretty efficient at it - it takes me less than 90 seconds to both [I]find and create[/I] a GIF of defenders camping under the rim in previous eras.[/QUOTE]

would you ever send me the file of all your gifs.???

[QUOTE=The_Pharcyde]would you ever send me the file of all your gifs.???[/QUOTE]
pm'd
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[B]Here's what ACTUALLY happened in previous eras when Jordan caught it on the elbow:
[/B]

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif[/IMG]


Think you can beat that Thibbs?... Keep dreaming.. Such defense is impossible in today's game.

The NBA said many times that they instituted rules like defensive 3 seconds to "open up the game"... "allow more freedom of movement"... and "make passing and cutting easier".

The aforementioned rule changes and the inception of spacing strategy did indeed open up the game.. Accordingly, new defensive strategies were needed to [I]maintain[/I] defensive effectiveness... if Thibbs hadn't come up with something to mitigate defensive 3 seconds and guard the larger surface area caused by 3-pointers, someone else would have.

Thibbs deserves credit, but his strategies would've been developed at some point anyway, because the rule changes & spacing necessitated it.. GM Daryl Morey says just that:

3Ball, Im surprised you didn't use more NY Knick gifs perhaps the best defensive team ever.

They were the Bad Boys 2.0 the evolution of the Jordan Rules. They signed players with the sole purpose to stop MJ. They took the Pistons' playbook and Riley instituted a system that broke all rules. He pushed the button on physicality and toughness and didn't back down, refs just said "f*ck it!" and let them play. The Knicks were smarter, tougher, dirtier and more athletic than any defensive team perhaps ever.

Not only did you have to fight through great perimeter All Defensive specialists that were tough, you then had to go through Mason, Oakley, Xman, Smith, only to be met by Ewing. What other team had that?

That's like some American Gladiator gauntlet shit right there.

Zone rules? they played Zone!

They broke all rules.

So the rules said big man can't trap... pfft... Riley said "F*ck you!" and sent Ewing anyways, DARED the refs to call anything.

Rules may have stated that a player can't be doubled without the ball, and Riley wiped his ass with that rule.

But forget about the Knicks... almost every single team employed similar Jordan Rules tactics to stop him. Every team cheated the system and refs just swallowed their whistle. Replace all the MJ gifs with other players and teams and you'll see tougher defense than what's played today.

hey 3ball, why don't you post 50 more .gifs of Jordan playing with half his own teammates in the paint, and then act like those are even applicable to what we're talking about?

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]hey 3ball, why don't you post 50 more .gifs of Jordan playing with half his own teammates in the paint, and then act like those are even applicable to what we're talking about?[/QUOTE]
he is such an idiot. i have no idea why people keep arguing with him. he doesn't understand any rule relating to defense at all.

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[B]PLAYOFF AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:
[/B]
[I]JORDAN[/I]: 35 PPG / [B][I]7 APG[/I][/B] / 50% FG
[I]LEBRON[/I]: 28 PPG / 6 APG / 48% FG


[B]FINALS AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:
[/B]
[I]JORDAN[/I]: 36 PPG / [B][I]8 APG[/I][/B] / 50% FG
[I]LEBRON[/I]: 24 PPG / 6 APG / 46% FG

[I]Source: basketball-reference.com[/I]


[SIZE="3"][B]MJ CAREER AVERAGE: [SIZE="4"]33.4 PPG[/SIZE][/b][/size]

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Thibbs developed his methodologies in the mid-late 2000's FOR spacing, to COMBAT spacing.. this is a fact... he would never have came up with these defenses in the 80's or 90's when there was no spacing and guys could camp in the lane.

when guys could camp in the lane, they didn't have to move out of the paint when the ball was swung like they must do today - they could just move their head and body like a swivel chair...

and certainly, it makes sense that swinging the ball would be less effective in previous eras before the new rules in 2005 designed to "make passing and cutting easier"... "open up the game"... and "allow for more freedom of movement".
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[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

Jordan playing with half his own teammates in the paint.... are those even applicable to what we're talking about?

[/QUOTE]
you don't think spacing makes it easier for offensive players?

:wtf:


[QUOTE]

hey 3ball, why don't you post 50 more .gifs of Jordan playing [SIZE="4"]with half his own teammates in the paint

[/QUOTE]
dude, in every single GIF i posted, there were bulls players behind the 3-point line, while everyone else camped in the lane... why don't you go back and take a [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866902&postcount=134][u]2nd look[/u][/url]..

Also, why don't you check out some GIFs that are even more obvious in showing [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1][u]guys paint-camping while their man is behind the 3-point line[/u][/url] - all the GIFs are from a single video - that's how easy they are to find.

you should know that all i'm really trying to do is show that defensive effectiveness has remained [I]the same[/I] over the eras - it's just that people tend to think today's defenses are so much better, so to prove they are merely equal with previous eras, i have to bash today's defenses..

but i've made many a thread about how league-wide ORtg has remained stable over the years due to teams adjusting on both ends of the floor and rule changes taking away some things but adding others, so it all evens out, etc, etc.. that's my real stance on the issue - but in order to get that point across, i have to diminish today's overrated defenses.
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3ball is like ice cream on asphalt...melting down.

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[B]Thibbs' strongside flood was only designed in the mid-late 2000's [I]to combat spacing and the new rules[/I] - this is fact.. his strategies are not applicable to no-spacing environments.

Look at the no-spacing environment below: who thinks Thibbs would have conceived his methodologies back then in this environment?... Does anyone think the Pistons need to do Thibbs' strongside flood here and bring a defender over from the weakside?

That would be like telling a girl with FF's that she needs an enhancement.
[/B]

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif[/IMG]


I posted this in the other thread, but i think it makes the point perfectly... Thibbs could only match this level of paint defense if he went back in time when guys didn't shoot 3's and defenders could [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866902&postcount=134][u]camp in the lane without tippy-toeing[/u][/url].
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I just came in here to look at all the Jordan Gifs

[QUOTE=3ball].
Thibbs' strongside flood was only designed in the mid-late 2000's [I]to combat spacing and the new rules[/I] - this is fact.. his strategies are not applicable to no-spacing environments.

Look at the no-spacing environment below: who thinks Thibbs would have conceived his methodologies back then in this environment?... Does anyone think the Pistons need to do Thibbs' strongside flood here and bring a defender over from the weakside?

That would be like telling a girl with FF's that she needs an enhancement.


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif[/IMG]


I posted this in the other thread, but i think it makes the point perfectly... Thibbs could only match this level of paint defense if he went back in time when guys didn't shoot 3's and defenders could [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866902&postcount=134][u]camp in the lane without tippy-toeing[/u][/url].
.[/QUOTE]


This is the last time I will say this:

1. Your .gif's aren't applicable because defenses today could do the same shit if the offense chose to just clog up the paint. Spacing is more advanced today. Part of this is due to the lack of handchecking making it easier for smaller, more skilled perimeter players.

2. today's 3 second rule is super lax. Paint camping is pretty much allowed today if the offense is dumb enough to play 2 players who can't shoot past 18 ft. Otherwise camping the paint just gives the offense open jumpers. Watch any team without enough shooters and you will see this. Two years ago whenever John Wall tried to penetrate there would be 3 men in the paint waiting for him. Now the Wiz have shooters and the game is completely different.

what I had a bit of a problem with regarding that statement.

is that it said that sometimes you had 4 or 5 shooters out on the floor

this is either complimenting the way bigs like Ewing played in which help spaced the floor.

or the reality is that many players back then simply took the 2's.


by the way, did you know that Chris Webber was actually a decent 3 point shooter in his college days.

but when he entered the NBA, due to the 3 point line being further back then college, who probably didn't so much focus on shooting the long ball. became more known for his long 2 which were just one step in of the 3 point line.