Remember when 34-35 year old MJ was more dominant than 2000 Shaq?

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[COLOR="White"].........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]40.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]37.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]46.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]40.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]50.4[/url] [B][COLOR="Green"]<--- links to data[/COLOR][/B]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]42.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]39.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]48.8[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]43.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]49.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]35.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]34.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]39.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]43.9[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]35.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]26.2[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]35.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]25.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.1[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]28.2[/url]




[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentages of team points [COLOR="Red"]+ assists[/COLOR] while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]..

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]

If we're considering offense it would be wrong to exclude offensive rebounding from your stats.

MJ finals 97: 40.9 %PTS, 32.7 %AST, 14.5 %OREB, -19.7 %TOV

Shaq finals 00: 38.4 %PTS, 10.3 %AST, 51.5 %OREB, -21 %TOV

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Once again hyperbole centred on cherry picked stats.[/COLOR][/B]

[/QUOTE]
Did you read the post you quoted????... We're talking about OFFENSE.

See the previous post for reposted data on proportion of points scored..... and then points + assists.

We can cancel out assists and rebounds if you want and just go by points... Makes no difference...

[COLOR="Navy"][I]MJ carried the bigger load on offense, while providing his team a larger defensive box score advantage over the opposing SG than Shaq had over the opposing center.[/I][/COLOR]

[QUOTE=3ball]Did you read the post you quoted????... We're talking about OFFENSE.[/QUOTE]

All I did was add in offensive rebounding stats. Offensive rebounding is an important part of offense that generates extra possessions. Clearly Shaq pulling down 50+% of his teams OREB greatly benefited his teams offense...

[QUOTE]We can cancel out assists and rebounds if you want and just go by points... Makes no difference...
[/QUOTE]

no you cannot just 'cancel out' assists and rebounds. My point is that you cannot just excude what doesn't favor MJ and add up the rest.

And in fact if you compare only points, MJ does have an advantage (unsuprisingly as the greatest scorer), but it's not by much in the RS, PO and finals. He's ahead like 2-3% each time, which does not constitute as 'far' greater offensive load. My contention is that you dismiss this as a foregone conclusion, when it is in actual fact close and certainly debatable.

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]

All I did was add in offensive rebounding stats. Offensive rebounding is an important part of offense that generates extra possessions. [B]Clearly Shaq pulling down 50+% of his teams OREB greatly benefited his teams offense..[/B].

[/quote]
Okay, that's fine.. We can just look at scoring, since MJ has the assist edge and Shaq has the rebound edge.


[QUOTE=K Xerxes]

And in fact if you compare only points, MJ does have an advantage (unsuprisingly as the greatest scorer), [B][COLOR="Red"]but it's not by much in the RS, PO and finals. He's ahead like 2-3% each time[/COLOR][/B], which does not constitute as 'far' greater offensive load. My contention is that you dismiss this as a foregone conclusion, [B][COLOR="Red"]when it is in actual fact close[/COLOR][/B] and certainly debatable.

[/QUOTE]
Bullshit - you act like I can't see the damn numbers right there in the post above.

In the "[I]playoffs[/I]" and "[I]Finals [/I]" columns, 1998 Jordan has between 5-8% advantage over any Shaq year, not 2-3%.

In the "[I]playoffs 4th[/I]" column, 1998 Jordan has 9-24% advantage over Shaq depending on the year... And in the "[I]Finals 4th[/I]" column, Jordan has a 6% advantage over 2000 Shaq, and literally a 24-26% edge over 2001 and 2002 Shaq.. So stop lying and saying it's close - you sound like a politician.

So again, MJ carried a significantly bigger load on offense, while providing his team a larger defensive box score advantage over the opposing SG than Shaq had over the opposing center.

[QUOTE=3ball]Okay, that's fine.. We can just look at scoring, since MJ has the assist edge and Shaq has the rebound edge.[/QUOTE]
Except that Shaq's rebounding edge is larger than Jordan's assist edge...

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]Except that Shaq's rebounding edge is larger than Jordan's assist edge...[/QUOTE]
I bet 3ball has an argument saved for this :lol

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]

Except that Shaq's rebounding edge is larger than Jordan's assist edge...

[/QUOTE]
Only against old MJ - prime MJ destroys him - remember, we're arguing this whole time about OLD Jordan vs. prime Shaq... (that's the real beauty of it.. :D )

And I prefer that old MJ's big advantages are in the scoring and assist categories - which they are - while also providing his team with a larger defensive box score advantage over the opposing SG, than Shaq has over the opposing center.

[QUOTE=3ball]Only against old MJ - prime MJ destroys him - remember, we're arguing this whole time about OLD Jordan vs. prime Shaq... (that's the real beauty of it.. :D )

And I prefer that old MJ's big advantages are in the scoring and assist categories - which they are - while also providing his team with a larger defensive box score advantage over the opposing SG, than Shaq has over the opposing center.[/QUOTE]
But you're talking about old MJ here. If you're arguing prime MJ > prime Shaq, of course you've got a great case, but the rebounding edge prime Shaq has over old MJ is greater than old MJ's assist edge. They're different discussions, that's the point I'm trying to make.

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]But you're talking about old MJ here. If you're arguing prime MJ > prime Shaq, of course you've got a great case, but the rebounding edge prime Shaq has over old MJ is greater than old MJ's assist edge. They're different discussions, that's the point I'm trying to make.[/QUOTE]
Again, that's fine - old MJ has the big scoring AND assist edge, and Shaq has the rebounding edge.

Advantage old MJ.

[U][SIZE="4"][COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Summary of the dialogue ITT:[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/U]


[B][COLOR="blue"]3BALL[/COLOR]: Old MJ carried a bigger load than prime Shaq, since he scored a higher proportion of his team's points than Shaq.


[COLOR="red"]OTHER POSTERS[/COLOR]: Even 2000 Shaq?... No way... b-b-but.. fine then... what about assists?


[B][COLOR="Blue"]3BALL[/COLOR][/B]: MJ carried an even bigger load when you include assists.


[COLOR="Red"][B]OTHER POSTERS[/B][/COLOR]: Whatever... **** you.... Nobody cares what you say... Oh wait, I have a counter - defense... Shaq had a far bigger defensive impact.... hahaha... So THERE


[B][COLOR="Blue"]3BALL[/COLOR][/B]: Actually, the defensive impact that Shaq gave his team was wiped away and superceded when he faced better defensive centers, like Hakeem, David Robinson, Dikembe or Alonzo - all these guys gave their team greater defensive impacts.

This didn't happen for Jordan because he was the best defensive SG in the league... On average, he gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - as an example, look at the Kobe vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-0.5 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Longley vs. Shaq (1.7 to Shaq's 1.6).


[B][COLOR="Red"]OTHER POSTERS[/COLOR][/B]: b-b-but.... huh?... wtf


[COLOR="blue"][B]3BALL[/B][/COLOR]: Now I'll concede that if you replaced Jordan with Hakeem or Robinson, the Bulls would be a better defensive team than with Jordan - but again, those guys were the best defensive players at their position just like Jordan was, and their defensive advantage over other centers was likely bigger than Jordan's advantage over other SG's.

So it isn't remarkable that replacing Jordan with them would lead to a better defensive team... But not Shaq - he was only 2nd team all-defense 3 times in his 17 year career (never 1st team) and his teams rarely ranked near the top defensively - and again, his defensive boxscore advantage over the opposing center was less than the defensive boxscore advantage Jordan had over his matchup at SG, so Jordan was giving his team a bigger defensive impact in that regard.


[COLOR="Red"][B]OTHER POSTERS[/B][/COLOR]: **** you... You ****


[B][COLOR="Blue"]3BALL[/COLOR][/B]: Sorry guys... There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even though Shaq had solid defenders like Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe and Alonzo Mourning.


[B][COLOR="Red"]OTHER POSTERS[/COLOR][/B]: You're a ***********... Nobody cares about your posts.... :mad: ....... Oh wait - I thought of another counter - rebounding... So even though Shaq scored a lower proportion of his team's points and assists, and even though he gave his team a smaller defensive boxscore advantage over the opposing center than the advantage Jordan provided in his matchup at shooting guard, Shaq got more REBOUNDS.... YAAAAY!!!!!... He got more rebounds!!!... :rockon: ..... So that makes him better and carrying the bigger load, despite the disadvantages on offense and defense... Whew.... That was a close one 3ball.


[B]3BALL[/B]: :roll: [/B]
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Stop bumping your threads you fvcking weirdo

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]Stop bumping your threads you fvcking weirdo[/QUOTE]

The issues...what I don't get is how he doesn't realize that no one cares...like his idiotic post above yours...he acts like people are really getting into it...he's the only one that cares about this shit. He's been doing this for almost a year now too...it's really sad. I'm a pretty callous person, but even I'm starting to feel bad for him.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]

he's the only one that cares about this shit

[/QUOTE]
There's 11 pages and 163 posts in the thread, including numerous involved arguments from many posters...


[QUOTE=Smoke117]

I'm a pretty callous person

[/QUOTE]
:roll:

ur obviously a *****
.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]The issues...what I don't get is how he doesn't realize that no one cares...like his idiotic post above yours...he acts like people are really getting into it...he's the only one that cares about this shit. He's been doing this for almost a year now too...it's really sad. I'm a pretty callous person, but even I'm starting to feel bad for him.[/QUOTE]

exactly what i was thinking. not even a sense of humor.

the guy needs to take a vacation from posting. like 30 years or so.

3ball stay winning.

haters mad as **** in this thread:oldlol: