Teammate career rankings between Jordan and Lebron -- The Reality

[QUOTE=insidious301;14112569]Incorrect. Here is real count, and Pippen wins handily.

WS/48: [B]Pippen .185[/B], Ewing .172
BPM: [B]Pippen 6.0[/B], Ewing 4.0
OBPM: [B]Pippen 3.9[/B], Ewing 2.0
DBPM: [B]Pippen 2.1[/B], Ewing 2.0
PER: Ewing 22.5, Pippen 21.2
VORP: [B]Pippen 45.9[/B] (599 games), Ewing 44.7
VORP per 82: [B]Pippen 6.3,[/B] Ewing 4.6
ORTG: [B]Pippen 112[/B], Ewing 108
TS %: Ewing 56%, Pippen 55%

7-2 in Pippen's favor. And if we include APM-RAPM, Pippen leads there too. Since you already agreed with OP's post, and consider it superior offense, then we must conclude Pippen was a true #1. What that also tells us is Chicago's #2 was actually a #1, and outplayed the #1 on the Bulls' best rival. Pippen year after year ranked top 10 in most impact stats, so him being a superstar isn't anything new.[/QUOTE]

OP's stats are career stats, and Ewing has higher career WS/48, PER, TS, and DRTG

But are we just counting up categories to see who leads more of them?... Because Ewing wins easily that way

Otherwise, Ewing leads the ones that matter - PPG, efficiency, and player efficiency rating... His elite scoring ability allowed him to reach the top level, aka 1st option Finals guys... Pippen can't reach this level because he's a weak scorer and 2nd option

You have nothing. Join your son tpols in arguing Manu>Pippen in the other thread.

[QUOTE=3ball;14112582]OP's stats are career stats, and Ewing has higher career WS/48, PER, TS, and DR

But are we just counting up categories to see who leads more of them?... Because Ewing wins easily that way

Otherwise, Ewing leads the ones that matter - PPG, efficiency, and player efficiency rating... His elite scoring ability allowed him to reach the top level, aka 1st option Finals guys... Pippen can't reach this level because he's a weak scorer and 2nd option[/QUOTE]

A players prime is worth more. So the updated stats are from both Ewing and Pippen's prime, and roughly 9 seasons of data. To recap Prime Pippen(91-98) had better: bpm, ortg, ws, ws48, vorp & ortg. Prime Ewing(88-97) has better: ts, per & ppg. What's more, we know all the stats Pippen beat Ewing in are cumulative & impact ones. Meaning they are unequivocally better measures. The facts are clearly not on your side.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111438]Thanks. We were waiting for the Knicks/MJ Stockholm Syndrome contingent to make the obligatory appearance echoing the MJ stan TP. We get it: Pippen sucked (sucked in that ECF, right?), Grant sucked, it was all MJ (pathetic Knicks losing to a one man team :lol ), we should cherry pick their highest win total (55, 61, 67, 57, 55--cherry pick 67 as their "true" level!), etc.

Interesting argument: players got better w/out MJ (Pippen, Grant, BJ, Kerr, Myers, arguably S. Williams had career years--i.e., most of the rotation :oldlol: ) while everyone gets worse when LeBron leaves. This is an argument [I]for[/I] MJ. :confusedshrug:

Let's use your cherry picking argument. 13' Heat: 66 wins, down to 37 in 15'. That's -29 wins. 92' Bulls 67 wins, 94' Bulls 55 wins. -12. So per your own metric, -29 vs. -12. Both coming from the same baseline: 67 and 66--and one team lands at 55 and the other 37. According to MJ stans and their satellite Knicks fans contingent, 67 to 55=worse team than the team going from 66 to 37.

Again and again we see their own metrics backfire--but they still won't own the logical conclusions of their own metrics.



:cheers:[/QUOTE]

Way to obfuscate with a bunch of nonsense. You refuted absolutely nothing that I said.

Just have a look at the numbers.
[B]92 Pippen[/B] - 21/8/7 on .555 TS and 21.5 PER [B]93 Pippen[/B] - 19/8/6 on .510 TS and 19.2 PER
[B]92 Grant[/B] - 14/10/3 on .618 TS and 20.6 PER [B]93 Grant[/B] - 13/10/3 on .534 TS and 17.5 PER

You also conveniently left out Toni Kukoc, who was All Rookie 2nd team, and was saving Pippen with game winners during the regular season and the playoffs.

[video=youtube;uUTfJlezXPY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUTfJlezXPY&ab_channel=HoopsMadness[/video]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14112589]You have nothing. Join your son tpols in arguing Manu>Pippen in the other thread.[/QUOTE]

You simply can't refute that Ewing leads the majority of stat categories, including the scoring and efficiency categories that are needed to be the top caliber, aka 1st option Finals guy..

In the 90's, the 1st option Finals guys were MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Barkley, Drexler, Robinson.. These were the top tier and Pippen wasn't included due to weaker scoring ability..

These are facts that sit comfortably with me... But you go ahead and hang on to a smaller number of stat categories, including stats that double with each additional steal.. :roll:

[QUOTE=3ball;14112604]You simply can't refute that Ewing leads the majority of stat categories, including the scoring and efficiency categories that are needed to be the top caliber, aka 1st option Finals guy..

In the 90's, the 1st option Finals guys were MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Barkley, Drexler, Robinson.. These were the top tier and Pippen wasn't included due to weaker scoring ability..

These are facts that sit comfortably with me... But you go ahead and hang on to a smaller number of stat categories, including stats that double with each additional steal.. :roll:[/QUOTE]

Once again, steals are also weighted in vorp, winshares & ws48. They're also stats you agreed with OP on. And that were used to prop up Jordan/Ewing. What's more, Pippen has Ewing beat in WS/48 not the other way around. So that isn't in his favor just like BPM-RAPM-APM-VORP-ORTG-WS aren't either.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14112420]Those are Oakley's words. I think he was a little too matter of fact, but he is right that Ewing's offense left a lot on the table. Do the Knicks get better with more offensive help? Fair question although I think keeping Mark Jackson and Xavier Mcdaniel in 1992 would've paid dividends. Lets get back to main debate here: Pippen vs Ewing. Forget that you dont "put much stock" into Pippen beating Ewing (and yet do so for Ewing when Pippen didn't have a legit #2). From 1991-98, Pippen beat Ewing in ORTG, BPM, APM, RAPM, WS, WS48, VORP. That is basically a clean sweep.

PPG, TS and PER are really the only things Ewing bests Pippen in. The years chosen are from when they were in their primes. Ewing began his during the late 80s while Pippen primed in the early 90s. Pretty simple. Not seeing how you can draw any other conclusion than Pip>Pat. I have seen you adopt these same metrics to suggest AD>LeBron so what gives? Where is the consistency on your part?[/QUOTE]

Why do you disregard Ewing's scoring and track record as the #1 guy exactly? I put my stock into the eye test as much as the stats. Ewing beating & outplaying Pippen when both were in their primes is bigger than just the advanced metrics.

Ewing outplayed Pippen in the Playoffs from '92-'96 & he didn't have the GOAT on his side.

'92
Ewing: 22/11/2 2.3 blk 48.8%FG/52.4%TS 15.9 GmSc
Pippen: 16/8/7/2/1 40.2%FG/49.3%TS 14.9 GmSc

'93

Ewing: 26/12/3/2/2 53%FG/56.9%TS 20.7 GmSc
Pippen: 23/7/4/2 51%FG/57.3%TS 15.7 GmSc

'94

Ewing: 23/12/3/1/2 53%FG/58.1%TS 18.7 GmSc
Pippen: 22/8/5/2/1 40.5%FG/51.3%TS 15.6 GmSc

'96

Ewing: 23/11 2.8 blk 46.7%FG/52.7%TS 15.0 GmSc
Pippen: 16/8/5/3 33%FG/41.6%TS 13.0 GmSc

How did Pippen outplay Ewing in these series exactly?

[QUOTE=insidious301;14112607]Once again, steals are also weighted in vorp, winshares & ws48. They're also stats you agreed with OP on. And that were used to prop up Jordan/Ewing. What's more, Pippen has Ewing beat in WS/48 not the other way around. So that isn't in his favor just like BPM-RAPM-APM-VORP-ORTG-WS aren't either.[/QUOTE]

leads the majority of stat categories, including the scoring and efficiency categories that are needed to be the top caliber, aka 1st option Finals guy..

In the 90's, the 1st option Finals guys were MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Barkley, Drexler, Robinson.. These were the top tier and Pippen wasn't included due to weaker scoring ability..

These are facts that sit comfortably with me... But you go ahead and hang on to a smaller number of stat categories, including stats that double with each additional steal..

[QUOTE=3ball;14112614]leads the majority of stat categories, including the scoring and efficiency categories that are needed to be the top caliber, aka 1st option Finals guy..

In the 90's, the 1st option Finals guys were MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Barkley, Drexler, Robinson.. These were the top tier and Pippen wasn't included due to weaker scoring ability..

These are facts that sit comfortably with me... But you go ahead and hang on to a smaller number of stat categories, including stats that double with each additional steal..[/QUOTE]

Ewing outplayed Pippen in 4 out of 5 series in the 90s, including when both were #1 options, but somehow Pippen was the better player. Put Ewing with Jordan from '88, how many rings do they win?

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14112612]Why do you disregard Ewing's scoring and track record as the #1 guy exactly? I put my stock into the eye test as much as the stats. Ewing beating & outplaying Pippen when both were in their primes is bigger than just the advanced metrics.

Ewing outplayed Pippen in the Playoffs from '92-'96 & he didn't have the GOAT on his side.

'92
Ewing: 22/11/2 2.3 blk 48.8%FG/52.4%TS 15.9 GmSc
Pippen: 16/8/7/2/1 40.2%FG/49.3%TS 14.9 GmSc

'93

Ewing: 26/12/3/2/2 53%FG/56.9%TS 20.7 GmSc
Pippen: 23/7/4/2 51%FG/57.3%TS 15.7 GmSc

'94

Ewing: 23/12/3/1/2 53%FG/58.1%TS 18.7 GmSc
Pippen: 22/8/5/2/1 40.5%FG/51.3%TS 15.6 GmSc

'96

Ewing: 23/11 2.8 blk 46.7%FG/52.7%TS 15.0 GmSc
Pippen: 16/8/5/3 33%FG/41.6%TS 13.0 GmSc

How did Pippen outplay Ewing in these series exactly?[/QUOTE]

I only "disregard" Ewing when the claims are that Pippen wasn't on his level or a #1 himself. Secondly, Ewing hardly outplayed Pippen in 93. And lastly, this is raw data. Post the impact stats that go along with the raw lines. We know that during their primes Pippen (91-98) beats Ewing (88-98) in WS, WS48, VORP, ORTG, BPM, OBPM and now APM/RAPM. So, all the major impact metrics.

[QUOTE=3ball;14112614]leads the majority of stat categories, including the scoring and efficiency categories that are needed to be the top caliber, aka 1st option Finals guy..

In the 90's, the 1st option Finals guys were MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Barkley, Drexler, Robinson.. These were the top tier and Pippen wasn't included due to weaker scoring ability..

These are facts that sit comfortably with me... But you go ahead and hang on to a smaller number of stat categories, including stats that double with each additional steal..[/QUOTE]

With APM and RAPM, the tally is something like 11-2 in advanced data. All in Pippen's favor. And again for reference

[quote]WS/48: Pippen .185, Ewing .172
BPM: Pippen 6.0, Ewing 4.0
OBPM: Pippen 3.9, Ewing 2.0
DBPM: Pippen 2.1, Ewing 2.0
PER: Ewing 22.5, Pippen 21.2
VORP: Pippen 45.9 (599 games), Ewing 44.7
VORP per 82: Pippen 6.3, Ewing 4.6
ORTG: Pippen 112, Ewing 108
TS %: Ewing 56%, Pippen 55%[/quote]

9 years worth of prime data. So not only was Pippen #1 caliber, like Ewing was, but even [U]better[/U] based on the impact.

Jordan is better than Lebron, but I'll take Lebron's 2016 Finals against any of Jordan's. Yes Jordan had some incredible Finals, especially 93 where he averaged 41 points, but Lebron absolutely dominated a 73 win team. He led the series (not just his team) in Points, Assists, Rebounds, Steals and Blocks.

Has any other player in NBA history led the series in all 5 statistical categories? Then to have it bein the finals against a 73 win team in a 7 game series is unbelievable. Haters will downplay it, but not many more impressive playoff accomplishments. And spare me "Kyrie hit the big shot." Paxon, Kerr and others hit big shots throughout the Bulls title run.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14112630]I only "disregard" Ewing when the claims are that Pippen wasn't on his level or a #1 himself. Secondly, Ewing hardly outplayed Pippen in 93. And lastly, this is raw data. Post the impact stats that go along with the raw lines. We know that during their primes Pippen (91-98) beats Ewing (88-98) in WS, WS48, VORP, ORTG, BPM, OBPM and now APM/RAPM. So, all the major impact metrics.



With APM and RAPM, the tally is something like 11-2 in advanced data. All in Pippen's favor. And again for reference



9 years worth of prime data. So not only was Pippen #1 caliber, like Ewing was, but even [U]better[/U] based on the impact.[/QUOTE]

"Hardly outplayed". He OUTPLAYED him. The stats are right there. He OUTPLAYED him in '93 and outplayed & beat him when both were #1 options and Pippen had better 2nd & 3rd options. What does WS/48 or VORP say about quitting on your team in a tie game?

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14112640]"Hardly outplayed". He OUTPLAYED him. The stats are right there. He OUTPLAYED him in '93 and outplayed & beat him when both were #1 options and Pippen had better 2nd & 3rd options. What does WS/48 or VORP say about quitting on your team in a tie game?[/QUOTE]

You are stalling. Find the impact data, like you do for AD vs LeBron, and post it here.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14112646]You are stalling. Find the impact data, like you do for AD vs LeBron, and post it here.[/QUOTE]

They have nothing. It is a joke, but amusing to observe.

We are hearing--from guys who talk scoring 24/7--Grant was a better scorer than Starks. :roll: This guy (IMKobe, 3ball's own beta poodle) is as ignorant as he is dishonest. Youtube.com, son. Watch some games if you are going to jackoff to MJ every day. You will enjoy. He was really good.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14112621]Ewing outplayed Pippen in 4 out of 5 series in the 90s, including when both were #1 options, but somehow Pippen was the better player. Put Ewing with Jordan from '88, how many rings do they win?[/QUOTE]

Ewing/MJ would win every year from 88-99'

And MJ could average 24 ppg because Ewing could carry the load.. yet people say MJ needed Pippen, aka MJ "needed" a sidekick that made him carry the goat scoring load and assist 33% more often