Jokic is the 4th best player of all time

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14985993]Not quite as good as Hakeem would obviously, but Robinson and Ewing would get smoked even more on offense by Jokic.

[B]Jokic is literally a better version of Larry Bird[/B], and most people consider Bird already better than Hakeem..sooo...do the math buddy.

2023 Jokic: 31.2 PER, 63.1 TS%, .305 WS/48, 12.8 BPM

1994 Hakeem: 27.7 PER, 56.8 TS%, .208 WS/48, 8.5 BPM

Whatever advantage Hakeem has on defense isn't enough to make up for the gap above. Jokic is literally number 1 all time in a ton of advanced stats, even ahead of MJ/Lebron. He's simply better than Hakeem.[/QUOTE]

I don't think you know what literally means. Bird is one of the greatest shooters and overall shot-makers who has ever done it. Jokic is not on that level in this area at all.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14986004]I don't think you know what literally means. Bird is one of the greatest shooters and overall shot-makers who has ever done it. Jokic is not on that level in this area at all.[/QUOTE]

Eh... Jokic is a GOAT big man shooter and scorer too. Scoring wise Bird wasn't actually nearly as efficient in the playoffs as Jokic even if you adjust for era efficiency and pace and everything. To say Bird is on another level as a scorer doesn't really add up.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14986004]I don't think you know what literally means. Bird is one of the greatest shooters and overall shot-makers who has ever done it. Jokic is not on that level in this area at all.[/QUOTE]

ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME????

Jokic is also one of the greatest shooters and overall shotmakers. You CLEARLY have never seen Jokic's shooting splits and shooting charts over the last few years. Have you forgotten all those circus three point bombs Jokic was dropping on AD/Lebron's heads in the playoffs? Literally insane and Jokic also has a similar high-release/shotput style like Bird.

Jokic is literally efficient scoring at all levels (rim, post, wings/elbows, long mid range, threes, free throws). Claiming Jokic can't shoot is like claiming Dirk can't shoot.

Shawk you are usually on point but your post is outstandingly ignorant. Jokic is way ahead of Bird in TS% and EFG%.

Cure yourself of ignorance and go look at Jokic's shooting splits.

Last 5 years right here: 3-10ft (60.8%), 10-16ft (50.7%), 16ft-3pt (49.2%), 3P (37.9%). Jokic is literally good everywhere.

Bird 84-88: 26.1 PER, 58.8 TS%, .237 WS/48, 8.7 BPM

Jokic 21-25: 31.8 PER, 66.3 TS%, .304 WS/48, 13.1 BPM

STOP SLEEPING ON JOKIC.

WTF is wrong with people. We are seeing a GOAT player in real time. It's like trying to downplay Lebron 10 years into his career. It's ridiculous.

[QUOTE=tpols;14986015]Eh... Jokic is a GOAT big man shooter and scorer too. Scoring wise Bird wasn't actually nearly as efficient in the playoffs as Jokic even if you adjust for era efficiency and pace and everything. To say Bird is on another level as a scorer doesn't really add up.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say as a total scorer. Just as a shooter.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14986018]ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME????

Jokic is also one of the greatest shooters and overall shotmakers. You CLEARLY have never seen Jokic's shooting splits and shooting charts over the last few years. Have you forgotten all those circus three point bombs Jokic was dropping on AD/Lebron's heads in the playoffs? Literally insane and Jokic also has a similar high-release/shotput style like Bird.

Jokic is literally efficient scoring at all levels (rim, post, wings/elbows, long mid range, threes, free throws). Claiming Jokic can't shoot is like claiming Dirk can't shoot.

Shawk you are usually on point but your post is outstandingly ignorant. Jokic is way ahead of Bird in TS% and EFG%.

Cure yourself of ignorance and go look at Jokic's shooting splits.

Last 5 years right here: 3-10ft (60.8%), 10-16ft (50.7%), 16ft-3pt (49.2%), 3P (37.9%). Jokic is literally good everywhere.[/QUOTE]

Jokic HEAVILY leverages the passing, spacing and ability to bully people inside when it comes to the shooting though. He has wonderful shot selection and a lot of the jumpers he takes are calculated based on what the defense is doing, which is primarily aimed at keeping him out of the paint.

Bird was often a complete avalanche scorer as a pure jump shooter despite efforts to prevent him from getting shots off. Jokic isn't defended the same way.

I'm not even saying Bird > Jokic. Just that there are definitely differences in the way they scored.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14986027]Jokic HEAVILY leverages the passing, spacing and ability to bully people inside when it comes to the shooting though. He has wonderful shot selection and a lot of the jumpers he takes are calculated based on what the defense is doing, which is primarily aimed at keeping him out of the paint.

Bird was often a complete avalanche scorer as a pure jump shooter despite efforts to prevent him from getting shots off. Jokic isn't defended the same way.

I'm not even saying Bird > Jokic. Just that there are definitely differences in the way they scored.[/QUOTE]

If Bird was 7 feet, 280 pounds, then his play style would look just like Jokic's. The size difference accounts for the small differences is playstyle, but the actual skill set between the two is extremely similar, even their jump shooting form.

Since the 3-point line inception, Bird was the original best "scorer/passer/rebounder" combo player. Then Lebron came and took that title, albeit in a very different way. However Jokic is closer to Bird 2.0, and Jokic is now arguably the best "scorer/passer/rebounder" combo player ever at his peak.

.
[i]Extended demonstrations of goat-caliber[/I] are required to become GOAT, which is how MJ became the first and last consensus GOAT:


1) goat modern dynasty
2) multiple 3-peats
3) 72 wins + title
4) goat frequency of titles [U]and[/U] MVP's
5) goat MVP-caliber - i.e. MJ's MVP's had everything, while Lebron's MVP's lack titles, scoring title or DPOY
6) [url=https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1TOk40Kq-O4]universally-recognized[/url] as the goat competitor
7) carried the "star category" of scoring, thereby needing less star help and allowing more room to sign defenders - i.e. by carrying the scoring load in every season, series and Finals, MJ dominated [I]max defensive attention[/I] for his entire career, which is a caliber of dominance that no one else came anywhere near.


The mainstream media is a few hundred people, while Lebron's hardcore fans are a small percentage and no different than Kobe's - so aside from this small group of people, Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ is, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), while also having a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14986042]MJ became goat by achieving extended demonstrations of [I]goat-caliber[/I] such as:


1) goat modern dynasty
2) multiple 3-peats
3) 72 wins + title
4) goat frequency of titles [U]and[/U] MVP's
5) goat MVP-caliber - i.e. MJ's MVP's had everything, while Lebron's MVP's lack titles, scoring title or DPOY
6) [url=https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1TOk40Kq-O4]universally-recognized[/url] as the goat competitor
7) carried the "star category" of scoring, thereby needing less star help and allowing more room to sign defenders - i.e. by carrying the scoring load in every season, series and Finals, MJ dominated [I]max defensive attention[/I] for his entire career, which is a caliber of dominance that no one else came anywhere near.


The mainstream media is a few hundred people, while Lebron's hardcore fans are a small percentage and no different than Kobe's - so aside from this small group of people, Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ was, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", and "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.[/QUOTE]

My favorite pizza toppings are pepperoni and pineapple.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14986045]I'm a passive-aggressive beta that wastes time playing dumb games on internet forums instead of furthering conversation and the human mind.. In short, I'm a waste of space :)[/QUOTE]



Got it.

Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ was, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14986044].
[i]Extended demonstrations of goat-caliber[/I] are required to become GOAT, which is how MJ became the first and last consensus GOAT:


1) goat modern dynasty
2) multiple 3-peats
3) 72 wins + title
4) goat frequency of titles [U]and[/U] MVP's
5) goat MVP-caliber - i.e. MJ's MVP's had everything, while Lebron's MVP's lack titles, scoring title or DPOY
6) [url=https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1TOk40Kq-O4]universally-recognized[/url] as the goat competitor
7) carried the "star category" of scoring, thereby needing less star help and allowing more room to sign defenders - i.e. by carrying the scoring load in every season, series and Finals, MJ dominated [I]max defensive attention[/I] for his entire career, which is a caliber of dominance that no one else came anywhere near.


The mainstream media is a few hundred people, while Lebron's hardcore fans are a small percentage and no different than Kobe's - so aside from this small group of people, Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ is, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), while also having a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.[/QUOTE]

Stick to the OP buddy.

We don't care about "resumes" or accolades at this point. Jokic is above all of that. Eye test, skillset, impact shows Jokic in the GOAT category.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14986048]

I'm a sad little basement-dwelling dweeb who quoted a post exclusively about Hakeem and Jokic, used it as a platform to go on an irrelevant pro-MJ/anti Lebron tirade, then turned in a passive aggressive bitch when someone responds to me with a post equally as pointless as mine was to the person I initially responded to. In short, my mother should have swallowed on my night of conception :)


[/QUOTE]

Duly noted.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14986053]Stick to the OP buddy.

We don't care about "resumes" or accolades at this point. Jokic is above all of that. Eye test, skillset, impact shows Jokic in the GOAT category.[/QUOTE]

Why are you even bothering to respond seriously to that? You were talking about Hakeem and Jokic and he hijacks it with a MJ copy/paste. The only thing he warrants is having his bullshit hijacked in response if not ignored.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14986025]I didn't say as a total scorer. Just as a shooter.[/QUOTE]

I mean you said shooter shot maker but that's literally how Jokic scores. That and in the post which is exactly what Bird did too. Jokic just does it better.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14986034]If Bird was 7 feet, 280 pounds, then his play style would look just like Jokic's. The size difference accounts for the small differences is playstyle, but the actual skill set between the two is extremely similar, even their jump shooting form.

Since the 3-point line inception, Bird was the original best "scorer/passer/rebounder" combo player. Then Lebron came and took that title, albeit in a very different way. However Jokic is closer to Bird 2.0, and Jokic is now arguably the best "scorer/passer/rebounder" combo player ever at his peak.[/QUOTE]

I suppose that's fair. But at the same time, size matters and it DOES change how you play.

And if it matters at all, Bird was more of a motherfvcker than Jokic I think. If we can cross numbers by era then we can do the same with mentalities. Not to say that Jokic is soft because he isn't but you couldn't phase Bird and I can see Jokic getting a little pissy at times and it affects his game a little bit.