Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?

[QUOTE=Psileas]He has a case. He's generally considered top 4-9 among most fans. Too dominant 2000-02 Finals. I usually put him somewhere in #7, a position that would be higher if
1) he wasn't getting injured as much as he did (for a season, I'll take a guy who plays 80 games and is 90% as good as Shaq instead of a 55-60 game Shaq)
2) he had the defensive impact of a guy like Hakeem
3) he won his titles against stronger individual competition.[/QUOTE]

This mirrors my thoughts exactly.

Psileas, who is in your top 5?

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]This mirrors my thoughts exactly.

Psileas, who is in your top 5?[/QUOTE]

1. He only had 3 seasons at LA and Orlando where he played less then 60 games.

2. Half the players in the league were too scared to drive on Shaq, how is the for defensive presence?

3. That is beyond a stupid argument Psileas and you know it. I could say Wilt was only able to win one championship and none in the era where individual competition was at its worst (Wilt in his prime).

[QUOTE=ClutchCityReturns]Not sure where I'd rank him overall, but I don't have him above Hakeem.

We all know Shaq is not one to admit that he's been outdone by an opponent, but this was his exact quote about the 1995 Finals against Hakeem...



Jordan also chose Hakeem over Shaq... ["If I had to pick a center, I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot of people. And the reason I would take Olajuwon is very simple: he is so versatile because of what he can give you from that position. It's not just his scoring, not just his rebounding or not just his blocked shots. People don't realize he was in the top seven in steals. He always made great decisions on the court. For all facets of the game, I have to give it to him."]



So whose opinion should I value more? Jordan's, or people on this board that have never even played a game of HORSE with the players in question?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the MJ quote. I actually feel the same way for the same reasons. I value the versatility that Hakeem brought to the game on both ends of the court. I would choose Hakeem over Shaq too. Hakeem was like a 7"0' Michael Jordan. He filled the stat line every night and his creativity was unmatched by anyone outside of MJ. He was an incredible player.

I could watch Hakeem play basketball all day long.

[B]He is the [U]Greatest Offensively Center Ever[/U] but other than that there have been better Passing Centers, Better Shooting Centers (Mid Range or FT), Better Defensive Centers and Better Rebounding Centers etc

What is this Top 5? Counting MVPs? Titles? :rolleyes: Thats nonsense Shaq should have gotten 3 MVPs in his Career just as Barkley should have gotten 2, Stockton 1 (Malone not hardly 1), Payton 1 etc would that would have but him higher in your All-Time Lists? He is The Greatest Offensive Center Ever and He is a Top 3-4 All Time Greatest Center Regarding MVPs, Titles, Lack of Professionalism? :rolleyes: or whatever nonsense awards the NBA gives out.[/B]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][: [B]Thats nonsense Shaq should have gotten 3 MVPs in his Career just as Barkley should have gotten 2, Stockton 1 (Malone not hardly 1), Payton 1[/B]out.[/B][/QUOTE]
Fact is that they didnt. Now deal with it.

[QUOTE=plowking][B]Jerry West [/B]- Please. OMG, hes on the NBA logo, who gives a damn?
[B]Oscar Robertson [/B]- Stats. What else has he got? You can't rate him better because of one triple double season he's had. What else does he have over Shaq? MVP's? Championships? Finals MVP's?
[B]Bill Russell[/B]- You have to play both sides of the floor to be considered truely great.
[B]Larry Bird [/B]- [COLOR="Blue"]Sure Larry impacted the game more then Shaq[/COLOR], but does he have more accomplishments? No.
[B]Wilt[/B] - Have you seen him play? No, you've heard about his stats and simply agree with everyone to sound knowledgeable. If he was as dominant as people claim, he would have won more championships, and he would have won them when he was in his prime, not run down and playing with stars.[/QUOTE]

[B][COLOR="blue"]No Larry Bird did not impact the game more[/COLOR]:no: :rolleyes: . Larry Bird was more skilled that is why he is in the top 10 EFF but if you take into account PER which meassure skills fitted into yield per minutes (which obviously takes into account physical attributes-athleticism-stamina etc which Bird did not have much to impact) then how can he have more impact than Bird?[/B]

[B]Shaq had more Impact than Bird and was way more of a Preocupation Singley

Bird had more Skills than Shaq so he could could make others Better through Skills, Court Awareness, Rigth Desicions, Passing Game etc[/B]

[QUOTE=plowking]Yer, Shaq said that after Hakeem beat him. Ask him now after 4 championships, I doubt he'll be saying Hakeem is better. :roll:

And I'm guessing that Jordan quote was before Shaq won any of his titles.[/QUOTE]
LOL Shaq was asked of his all-time team and he put Hakeem in it.Hakeem is the only Center shaq doesn't bad mounth.He evn bad mounths kareem, but he no the deal with The dream.He can't keep up with him.

[QUOTE]This mirrors my thoughts exactly.

Psileas, who is in your top 5?[/QUOTE]

Wilt-Jordan-Kareem-Russell-Magic, followed by Bird, Shaq, Oscar.

[QUOTE]1. He only had 3 seasons at LA and Orlando where he played less then 60 games.[/QUOTE]

This still makes him the most injury-prone among all players (in their prime, since you only included Orlando-Lakers Shaq) that I rank so high. Even Bird, with all his back issues, rarely missed games in his prime (27 in his first 9 years, to be exact). Magic Johnson, also a player who faced a few injuries here and there, once missed 45 games, but, apart from this, played in 92.8% of his games. Young and prime Shaq played in 85% of his available games. The only player whom I rank even close to Shaq and was as injury-prone is Jerry West, and I rank him below Shaq.

[QUOTE]2. Half the players in the league were too scared to drive on Shaq, how is the for defensive presence?[/QUOTE]

That's the case with big intimidating centers and Shaq was a great intimidator, but that doesn't mean he was a great individual defender. At least, not in the ranks of Hakeem/Mutombo/Robinson/Ben Wallace, just to include the best defenders of his own era.

[QUOTE]3. That is beyond a stupid argument Psileas and you know it. I could say Wilt was only able to win one championship and none in the era where individual competition was at its worst (Wilt in his prime).[/QUOTE]

If you said so,

1) you'd be lying, because Wilt won 2 championships, not 1.
2) with competition at its worst, Wilt still had to face Russell (and the Celtics) for like 15% of his regular season games and for more than 50% of his playoff games year after year, Clyde Lovelette for plenty of games and, by his 3rd year, Walt Bellamy. You can't compare this to facing Ben Wallace and past-prime Robinson as your best competitors (EDIT: yes, I know Robinson had Duncan next to him, but I didn't include him due to the position matter, and even if I did, I'd have to do the same with Lovelette and include Bob Pettit to Wilt's competition, as well).
Actually, regardless of competition, whenever Wilt lost the title, it was [B]always [/B]against the eventual champions (except once).
3) Wilt was still in his prime when he won his first title.

[quote=plowking]I want to know people's opinion on this because a lot of people overlook Shaq and simply think he is a good basketball player due to his size. I mean the guy has:

4 championships
Named ROY (Rookie of Year) (1993)
Named All-NBA First Rookie Team (1993)
Named MVP (Most Valuable Player) NBA Regular Season (2000)
Named All-NBA First Team (1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006)
Named All-NBA Second Team (1995, 1999)
Named All-NBA Third Team (1994, 1996, 1997)
Named MVP (Most Valuable Player) NBA Finals (2000, 2001, 2002)
Named All-NBA Second Defensive Team (2000, 2001, 2003)
Named IBM Award (2000, 2001)
Named NBA Top Scorer (1995, 2000)
Named NBA Best Field Goal Percentage (1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006)
2 times MVP NBA All-Star (2000, 2004)
Selected 14 times for the NBA All-Star game
3 of the greatest finals performances ever
25.2ppg, 11.5rpg, 2.7apg, 2.5bpg and 58% fg in the regular season.[/quote]

I think we all need to recognize he is a top 3 [B]most dominant[/B] player with Wilt and Jordan.

[QUOTE=Psileas]Wilt-Jordan-Kareem-Russell-Magic, followed by Bird, Shaq, Oscar.



This still makes him the most injury-prone among all players (in their prime, since you only included Orlando-Lakers Shaq) that I rank so high. Even Bird, with all his back issues, rarely missed games in his prime (27 in his first 9 years, to be exact). Magic Johnson, also a player who faced a few injuries here and there, once missed 45 games, but, apart from this, played in 92.8% of his games. Young and prime Shaq played in 85% of his available games. The only player whom I rank even close to Shaq and was as injury-prone is Jerry West, and I rank him below Shaq.



That's the case with big intimidating centers and Shaq was a great intimidator, but that doesn't mean he was a great individual defender. At least, not in the ranks of Hakeem/Mutombo/Robinson/Ben Wallace, just to include the best defenders of his own era.



If you said so,

1) you'd be lying, because Wilt won 2 championships, not 1.
2) with competition at its worst, Wilt still had to face Russell (and the Celtics) for like 15% of his regular season games and for more than 50% of his playoff games year after year, Clyde Lovelette for plenty of games and, by his 3rd year, Walt Bellamy. You can't compare this to facing Ben Wallace and past-prime Robinson as your best competitors (EDIT: yes, I know Robinson had Duncan next to him, but I didn't include him due to the position matter, and even if I did, I'd have to do the same with Lovelette and include Bob Pettit to Wilt's competition, as well).
Actually, regardless of competition, whenever Wilt lost the title, it was [B]always [/B]against the eventual champions (except once).
3) Wilt was still in his prime when he won his first title.[/QUOTE]
Who says shaq was a bad defender??He just can't guard the pick and roll that good.

Wilt is overrated, in his 100-point game, there was nobody above 6'8"

[QUOTE=plowking]See thats what I don't get.

People complain about how he got his points. Brute strength, so what? Lebron gets a large number of points like that and no one complains.[/quote]

I'm not complaining, just listing why I don't feel he's a top 5 player of all time. Do you think Lebron is top 5 all time?

[quote]Also you say he is ineffective now? He is one of the most efficient players when he is on the court. He is very productive in the 25 minutes he spends on court. You expect him to be scoring 20 and 10 now at his age? What were Wilt and Kareem averaging at this age?[/quote]

Yeah, he's efficient with his 14/9 a game. I'm talking about if he's such a great player, then why isn't he more effective when he's in great shape now? Why can't he do more for a team?

KAJ, at 35, was putting up 22/8/3/2 on .588 FG%

Shaq at 35, last year total, put up 14/9/2/1 on .593 FG%

I don't expect Shaq to put up 33/15 ever night, but if he really is as good as people think he is, and better than KAJ, then why, when he's in good shape, can't he be more effective? With that being said, his current production isn't my only point.

[quote]His effectiveness spans to over 14 years of getting at least 20 and 10 each season. Furthermore the greatest finals numbers ever seen.[/quote]

In my mind, it's not enough to be top 5 all time, because it still doesn't make up for his own ego getting in the way of fulfilling his potential.

[quote]Implement the hack a Shaq the majority of the time? He is still doing his job, either way, getting other players in foul trouble and the team over the limit. This is the exact reason why Wade got soo many foul shots in the finals against Dallas. They kept fouling him and Wade dropped 40 a night.[/quote]

I didn't say he's useless, only that for a top 5 player of all time, he should be more productive and have more impact on his team.

[quote]Furthermore, he still averaged what, 14 and 8 last year. That is good enough for something like 3rd or 4th best center in the NBA.[/QUOTE]

14/8 is 3rd best center? Hell, Brad Miller put up 13/10/4 last year and was the west's best shooting center. Does that mean Miller is a top 5 center?

[QUOTE=plowking]You act like Shaq was completely ineffective on defense.[/quote]

That's not what I said. I said he was never the league's elite post defender despite his unmatched size and athleticism.

[quote]He is the sole reason a lot of teams took jumpshots instead of driving inside looking for a layup. Those who did drive, were forced to change shots mid air. He is one of the most underrated defenders, he was a force inside.[/quote]

He wasn't a great individual defender, and his post defense that you describe is mainly on reputation, because perimeter players knew that if they attacked Shaq, they were probably going to get hammered by the 350+lb monster. Shaq was, again, never the elite post defender in the league. That doesn't mean he couldn't change shots or impact the post.

[quote]Furthermore Shaq has achievments over some of the players most people consider in the top 5. I think after Shaq retires he will finally get the respect he deserves.[/QUOTE]

So you feel that there are, at most, only 4 players that have ever lived that could be considered better?

[QUOTE]Wilt is overrated, in his 100-point game, there was nobody above 6'8"[/QUOTE]

Wrong (as if you even searched), Darrall Imhoff was 6'10 and Cleveland Buckner was 6'9.
And if you're trying to judge a Wilt from one game, you'd better leave it.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Larry Bird/Magic Johnson
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Wilt Chamberlin

[QUOTE=plowking][B]Jerry West [/B]- Please. OMG, hes on the NBA logo, who gives a damn?
[B]Oscar Robertson [/B]- Stats. What else has he got? You can't rate him better because of one triple double season he's had. What else does he have over Shaq? MVP's? Championships? Finals MVP's?
[B]Bill Russell[/B]- You have to play both sides of the floor to be considered truely great.
[B]Larry Bird [/B]- Sure Larry impacted the game more then Shaq,[B] but does he have more accomplishments? No.[/B][B]Wilt[/B] - Have you seen him play? No, you've heard about his stats and simply agree with everyone to sound knowledgeable. If he was as dominant as people claim, he would have won more championships, and he would have won them when he was in his prime, not run down and playing with stars.[/QUOTE]


This is the second time in the thread where you have brought this point of "accomplishments" up between Bird and Shaq and I've got to call you on it. Which I would assume to mean championships as [B]Bird has 3 MVP's [/B]to Shaq's 1. (Though Shaq has 3 Finals MVP's to Bird's 2.)

But the "accomplishments" meaning "championships" argument when comparing Shaq and Bird is absolute B.S. because Bird played in an an absolutely killer era where [B]EVERY[/B] championship team was an all time great team.

3 titles in an era with the early '80's Sixers, Bad Boy Pistons, Showtime Lakers is = or > than 4 against an era with NBA Finals teams like 2000 Pacers, 2001 Sixers, and 2002 Nets and 2006 Mavericks making the Finals.

So Bird's accomplishments match up just fine, while playing fewer seasons.


P.S. I won't go into the fact that you actually said Bill Russell isn't truly great.
You may not think he is top 5 ever and that is fine.
But the guy doesn't have enough fingers for his rings, [B]MEANING 11 [/B], on a team he was the best player on. Please don't insult him by saying he isn't truly great. Especially considering you never saw him play.

Or Wilt and Oscar for that matter.