[QUOTE]Of course the 81 point game as well...didn't Kobe score over 50 in the second half alone? Don't quite remember. Took MJ OT...that seals it for Kobe[/QUOTE]
Kobe highlights B-O-R-I-N-G. Jordan's jumpers are better than Kobe's dunks.
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[QUOTE]Of course the 81 point game as well...didn't Kobe score over 50 in the second half alone? Don't quite remember. Took MJ OT...that seals it for Kobe[/QUOTE]
Kobe highlights B-O-R-I-N-G. Jordan's jumpers are better than Kobe's dunks.
Eliteballer, what video were you watching? Jordan had 3-4 open shots in that game, and 2 of those were when he shot directly behind a screen so the defense couldn't challenge; another was on a kickout for 3, and the last (which was semi-challenged) was on a semi-transition pull-up from 18 feet. In addition, he had another open look when Price gambled and Jordan spun and fired, and another relatively open look that he himself generated by breaking Ehlo off on the baseline to create space. And one breakaway dunk. Every other shot of his 23 made field goals was contested by 1-2 defenders, not including the other attempts he was fouled on.
Kobe's performance was more impressive from a purely offensive POV, but don't engage in revisionist history when the evidence is right there for others to see.
what if jordan did not have to expend so much energy battling nance, brad daujghtery, and hot rod williams, for those rebounds? i think if jordan could have used more energy on scoring he probably would have had more points.
[QUOTE=eliteballer][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6l7MHr4Wag[/url]
[B]LOL @ people acting like that's good defense. MJ was wide open damn near most the time.[/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8MXycYwfRg[/url]
56 in 3 quarters back in 2002
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNGTN_s4l78[/url]
42 in a half(55 total) vs Wizards. [B]Kobe had over 30 points in a stretch of 7 minutes at one point[/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeY6_f-pJWc[/url]
Kobe drops 62 in 3 quarters vs Dallas who had WAY MORE CAPABLE DEFENDERS than the damn Cavs.
Of course the 81 point game as well...didn't Kobe score over 50 in the second half alone? Don't quite remember. Took MJ OT...that seals it for Kobe.[/QUOTE]
A) This isnt Kobe vs Jordan as career, becaue only the most blind and ignorant fans would think that half a career is better than an entire career of Jordan's level.
B) Tell me how the 2005-06 Mavs defense was better than the 1989-90 Cavs defense. That wasn't a watered down league back then. Price, Ehlo, Nance and Doughrety. They'd win 55-60 easy in today's NBA.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]what if jordan did not have to expend so much energy battling nance, brad daujghtery, and hot rod williams, for those rebounds? i think if jordan could have used more energy on scoring he probably would have had more points.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, having watched the game a number of times, Jordan didn't "battle" for rebounds. Most of them came fairly easily. He found himself on the low block on a number of occasions and was able to pull them down. Many of the rebounds would have gone to a teammate if Jordan himself hadn't gotten them. I don't want to take away from Jordan's achievement; 18 rebounds is wonderful... but to say that he expended a lot of energy battling for rebounds isn't accurate. It was my intention to record the game last night but I got sidetracked. I wish I had... I'd have visual aid to further back up my statements. But having watched the game last night, Jordan wasn't battling anyone.
[QUOTE=MaxFly]Honestly, having watched the game a number of times, Jordan didn't "battle" for rebounds. Most of them came fairly easily. [B]He found himself on the low block on a number of occasions and was able to pull them down. Many of the rebounds would have gone to a teammate if Jordan himself hadn't gotten them.[/B] I don't want to take away from Jordan's achievement; 18 rebounds is wonderful... but to say that he expended a lot of energy battling for rebounds isn't accurate. It was my intention to record the game last night but I got sidetracked. I wish I had... I'd have visual aid to further back up my statements. But having watched the game last night, Jordan wasn't battling anyone.[/QUOTE]
You just don't "find" youself on the lowblock and take rebounds away from much taller and bigger and capable rebounding teammates. For example, the very first Jordan rebound was over 6 10 and high leaping, ex dunk champion Larry Nance and then fouled for a 3-point play. You expend effort as a 6"6 guard vs large men (Doughrety and Nance, not to mention those on his own team).
Jordan is the GOAT because of his will to win and do great. Kobe probabaly, all in all is as talented, he just doesn't have the will. No discredit to him, because I don't know if anybody in all of professional sports has had the will and desire to win like Jordan had. That is why he's not only the NBA GOAT, but ranks up there will the professional athlete GOATs.
[QUOTE=xxxSuperStar]You just don't "find" youself on the lowblock and take rebounds away from much taller and bigger and capable rebounding teammates. For example, the very first Jordan rebound was over 6 10 and high leaping, ex dunk champion Larry Nance and then fouled for a 3-point play. You expend effort as a 6"6 guard vs large men (Doughrety and Nance, not to mention those on his own team).
Jordan is the GOAT because of his will to win and do great. Kobe probabaly, all in all is as talented, he just doesn't have the will. No discredit to him, because I don't know if anybody in all of professional sports has had the will and desire to win like Jordan had. That is why he's not only the NBA GOAT, but ranks up there will the professional athlete GOATs.[/QUOTE]
This is where people's personal feeling get mixed up with objective, logical discourse. I'm not sure where the "Jordan is the Goat because of his will to win" diatribe came from. This discussion has nothing to do with Jordan being the Goat or his will to win. I'm saying that Jordan didn't expend a lot of energy battling and getting rebounds. Moreover, on several plays, he found himself on the low block in perfect position to grab rebounds. It's pretty simple. He wasn't flying in from the perimeter repeatedly to pull down boards, nor did he often find himself fighting the opposition for rebounds. Again, I've watched this game several times, and most recently, yesterday evening. The majority of Jordan's rebounds came easily. 18 rebounds is 18 rebounds... there is no need to exaggerate the feat. He didn't have to out jump or battle with Doughrety and Nance on too many occasions.
Im a diehard Bulls and Jordan fan and I say, Kobe's 81 point game was better (and I dont like Kobe at all) heres why:
Jordan got his 69 points during a whole game and overtime
Kobe got his 81 in a whole game without no overtime, plus the game was close too...so was the Jordan game, but I think that 5 extra minutes that MJ had gives Kobe the edge in this one...
[QUOTE=MaxFly]This is where people's personal feeling get mixed up with objective, logical discourse. I'm not sure where the "Jordan is the Goat because of his will to win" diatribe came from. This discussion has nothing to do with Jordan being the Goat or his will to win. I'm saying that Jordan didn't expend a lot of energy battling and getting rebounds. Moreover, on several plays, [B]he found himself on the low block in perfect position [/B]to grab rebounds. It's pretty simple. He wasn't flying in from the perimeter repeatedly to pull down boards, nor did he often find himself fighting the opposition for rebounds. Again, I've watched this game several times, and most recently, yesterday evening. The majority of Jordan's rebounds came easily. 18 rebounds is 18 rebounds... there is no need to exaggerate the feat. He didn't have to out jump or battle with Doughrety and Nance on too many occasions.[/QUOTE]
And like I said, do you think that players just "find themselves on the low block in perfect position?"
I have seen the game probably 10 times as well. Tell me what happened on the very first rebound, which was an offensive rebound BTW.
Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, D-Howard just don't "find themselves on the low block." They work to get the best position.
As a guard, Jason Kidd just doesn't "find himself on the low block" he works to get those rebounds.
People who get rebounds don't wait for them to "fall into their hands" and "find themselves on the low block," they work for them.
That's why people like Eddy Curry at 7 0 and 290 don't "find themselves on the low block." It takes effort.
And like I said, not that Kobe doesn't exert effort, there are just very few who exerted it all the time and consistently like MJ. Kobe does it a lot, more than just about anybody, but not all the time (see game 7 playoffs v Suns.)
[QUOTE=xxxSuperStar]And like I said, do you think that players just "find themselves on the low block in perfect position?"
[/QUOTE]
Yes, it happens all the time. If you're guarding someone and they are in the paint, on the outskirts, or you are collapsing on a player and find yourself close to the basket, you find yourself in pretty good rebounding position. Again, Jordan wasn't flying in from the perimeter to collect rebounds, nor did he have to work very hard to position himself for rebounds.
[QUOTE]I have seen the game probably 10 times as well. Tell me what happened on the very first rebound, which was an offensive rebound BTW.
Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, D-Howard just don't "find themselves on the low block." They work to get the best position.
As a guard, Jason Kidd just doesn't "find himself on the low block" he works to get those rebounds.
People who get rebounds don't wait for them to "fall into their hands" and "find themselves on the low block," they work for them.[/QUOTE]
There is a level of work involved. Rebounds seldom fall into your hands, though they do at times... but the majority of the rebounds that Jordan pulled down did not require him to expend a lot of energy or exert himself excessivly. Did he battle for a few rebounds, of course. Did he have to battle for the majority of his rebounds and expend a lot of energy? He did not.
[QUOTE]That's why people like Eddy Curry at 7 0 and 290 don't "find themselves on the low block." It takes effort. [/QUOTE]
Again, the reason that guards generally don't pull down a lot of rebounds is that they usually guard players on the perimeter, and as a result, find themselves in positions or locations on the court that make it difficult for them to get their hands on a rebound consistently. If the players Jordan guarded had stood out on the perimeter for the duration of the game, more likely than not, Jordan wouldn't have come down with 18 rebounds. However, Jordan was fortunate to find himself in positions that made it easier for him to rebound. There was one rebound where the ball bounced to the left block, and only Bulls players were in the paint. Jordan came down with the ball because he was in good position to get it. He didn't work very hard... didn't have to outleap several Cavs players, nor expend a lot of energy, and many of his other rebounds were of a similar fashion,.
[QUOTE]And like I said, not that Kobe doesn't exert effort, there are just very few who exerted it all the time and consistently like MJ. Kobe does it a lot, more than just about anybody, but not all the time (see game 7 playoffs v Suns.)[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure where Bryant comes into this. You keep mentioning him, but this specific discussion concerning Jordan's rebounds has nothing to do with him. This discussion you and I are having concerns whether Jordan expended a lot of energy collecting rebounds... Bryant doesn't factor into this specific conversation in the least. The poster I responded to said that Jordan expended a lot of energy going after rebounds. I addressed that specific issue and nothing else.
[QUOTE=MaxFly]Honestly, having watched the game a number of times, Jordan didn't "battle" for rebounds. Most of them came fairly easily. He found himself on the low block on a number of occasions and was able to pull them down. Many of the rebounds would have gone to a teammate if Jordan himself hadn't gotten them. I don't want to take away from Jordan's achievement; 18 rebounds is wonderful... but to say that he expended a lot of energy battling for rebounds isn't accurate. It was my intention to record the game last night but I got sidetracked. I wish I had... I'd have visual aid to further back up my statements. But having watched the game last night, Jordan wasn't battling anyone.[/QUOTE]
7 offensive rebounds -- which is what he had that game -- don't come easily. I guess he's the only player in history to have 18 rebounds fall into his lap. ;)
A little known fact: Jordan's career high in rebounds is 19, not 18, though NBA.com and most reference sites list 18 as his career high. He had 19 rebounds (8 offensive) vs. Philly in the '91 playoffs. I guess they only count regular season highs as "career highs"?
[QUOTE=MaxFly]Yes, it happens all the time. If you're guarding someone and they are in the paint, on the outskirts, or you are collapsing on a player and find yourself close to the basket, you find yourself in pretty good rebounding position. Again, Jordan wasn't flying in from the perimeter to collect rebounds, nor did he have to work very hard to position himself for rebounds.
There is a level of work involved. Rebounds seldom fall into your hands, though they do at times... but the majority of the rebounds that Jordan pulled down did not require him to expend a lot of energy or exert himself excessivly. Did he battle for a few rebounds, of course. Did he have to battle for the majority of his rebounds and expend a lot of energy? He did not.
I disagree, as I saw him work for many of the rebounds and considering that 7of his 18 rebounds were on the offensive end, that tells you something.
Two different people watching the same thing coming to a differnt conclusion is not unusual. I hope that one day Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Allen, Kidd, Melo,
Again, the reason that guards generally don't pull down a lot of rebounds is that they usually guard players on the perimeter, and as a result, find themselves in positions or locations on the court that make it difficult for them to get their hands on a rebound consistently. If the players Jordan guarded had stood out on the perimeter for the duration of the game, more likely than not, Jordan wouldn't have come down with 18 rebounds. However, Jordan was fortunate to find himself in positions that made it easier for him to rebound. There was one rebound where the ball bounced to the left block, and only Bulls players were in the paint. Jordan came down with the ball because he was in good position to get it. He didn't work very hard... didn't have to outleap several Cavs players, nor expend a lot of energy, and many of his other rebounds were of a similar fashion,.
I'm not sure where Bryant comes into this. You keep mentioning him, but this specific discussion concerning Jordan's rebounds has nothing to do with him. This discussion you and I are having concerns whether Jordan expended a lot of energy collecting rebounds... Bryant doesn't factor into this specific conversation in the least. The poster I responded to said that Jordan expended a lot of energy going after rebounds. I addressed that specific issue and nothing else.[/QUOTE]
I disagree, as I saw him work for many of the rebounds and considering that 7of his 18 rebounds were on the offensive end, that tells you something.
But, two different people watching the same thing coming to a differnt conclusion is not unusual.
I hope that one day Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Allen, Kidd, Melo and any other player in today's NBA may one day have 18 rebounds fall into their lap or find themselves in "perfect position" while scoring 69 points.
[QUOTE=xxxSuperStar]I disagree, as I saw him work for many of the rebounds and considering that 7of his 18 rebounds were on the offensive end, that tells you something. [/QUOTE]
He worked hard for a few of the rebounds, but the majority of rebounds didn't require that Jordan expend a lot of energy.
[QUOTE]I hope that one day Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Allen, Kidd, Melo and any other player in today's NBA may one day have 18 rebounds fall into their lap or find themselves in "perfect position" while scoring 69 points.[/QUOTE]
Depends on how those players reach 18 rebounds. If Lebron is battling for position more often than not, and actually expending a lot of energy to get rebounds, then that will be very impressive. If he manages to come down with 18 rebounds which is impressive, but it's obvious that he didn't have to overly exert himself, and someone says that Lebron expended a lot of energy pulling down rebound, I'd hope that others would realize that it wasn't so.
[QUOTE=hotsizzle]you're pathetic. playing the "if" game. bottom line is 81>69. To belive that jordan's 69 is better than kobe's 81 is fine and is legit but to play the "if" game and downplay kobe's performance is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
i take nothing away from Kobe you Laker Homer. I'm just saying that Kobe's 81 is nothing compared to Jordan's 69 and you even know that yourself. Don't play me dude.
Kobe's 62 in 33 minutes against the Conference Champs (Dallas) is BETTER than Jordan's 69 and Kobe's 81.
There, I said it...
who said I was a Kobe hater?