What is Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami's big 3 in the finals?

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]the problem with your assertion is that kobe was not ready to play in the playoffs or regular season big minutes his first 2 years. he would have been awful playing a lot of minutes and it actually would have stunted his growth. trust me....if he was ready....they would have played.

the second problem is that kobe would have much less titles playing with a "scottie pippen"....in fact, i don't see how kobe could have won even 1 title in his first 8 years without either playing with shaq or duncan. so that point holds no water at all.

the third problem is that if kobe shot the ball 23 times a game for his career....he would have shot around 42% from the field. and there is not way in hell any coach is going to allow that unless he was playing on terrible teams. so if kobe wanted to win (which he clearly does)...he had to shoot less because he simply isn't good enough offensively to take 23 shots a game and score efficiently enough.

you can't have it both ways. kobe would not have won 1 ring if he didn't have shaq or duncan for his first 8 years....kobe was simply not good enough to be the number 1 option on a title team during that time. yes....his ppg would definitely have gone up....but his efficiency would have gone down as well.

i do agree that playing "what if" is sometimes stupid. and i certainly don't think that jordan needs to be credited with another title because he retired. but if you do play the "what if" game.....at least look at it from both sides.[/QUOTE]

I don't always agree with your takes, and I don't completely agree on this one, either...BUT, I do appalud your arguments. There is no reason for someone as knowledgeable as yourself to have a negative rep here.

[QUOTE=Poochymama]This, why does the lakers winning another championship(notice I didn't say Kobe) suddenly vault Kobe over players who are obviously better than him? Kobe is in the top 10 already, no amount of championships is going to get him past #5.

Sure he may win more championships than guys like Wilt, Kareem, and Jordan but all three of those players were simply better players than Kobe.

People on this board value TEAM championships WAY too much when trying to determine who the best PLAYER is. Had Kobe played for the Wizards his entire career and won 0 championships, this same board wouldn't even have him in the top 15, even though he's the exact same player who's rated 7-10 by most posters as a laker.

Why does playing for a better team make you a better player? Players should be judged by how well THEY play, not how well their TEAM plays.[/QUOTE]

I mostly agree with you on this. It is a TEAM game, not one-on-one. Still, there HAS to be value in LEADING teams to championships, too. After all, the game is still about winning. Russell's play is very under-rated here, and I believe that too many casual fans look at his offensive numbers and automatically assume that he was a "Ben Wallace" type of player. Nothing could be further from the truth. He did whatever it took to win. If he had to average 18 ppg and 24 rpg, he did. If he had to put up a 30-40 in a game seven (which included 14-17 from the FT line), he did. If he had to average 18 ppg and shoot .702 in the Finals, he did. If he had to lead his team in scoring in a Finals' series, he did. And that gets back to the point of LEADING a team to a title.

I am not naive enough to believe that Russell could have led the 62-63 Warriors to even a winning season, much less a title...but when he was given the right personnel, he LED them to a title. Too often we just take these things for granted. The bottom line is that he LED his teams to 27 playoff series wins in 29 tries, and 11 rings in 13 seasons (as well as two straight NCAA titles, and a Gold Medal.) All of that HAS to count for something in these GOAT discussions.

[QUOTE=KenneBell]In the seasons Kobe has put up more than 22 shots per game, his FG% was 45-46%. Don't know where you got 42% from.

He would have probably been putting up 20 shots a game by his 3rd-4th year had he started on the Hornets instead of 5th IMO.[/QUOTE]

one season is a huge difference from a career. kobe shoots 45% from the field on 19 shots for his career.

if he were to shoot 4 more times per game. that is 21% more shots per game.....his fg% would drop. that is a simple fact. there is no debating this. why? simply because those extra 4 shots would not be of the same quality as the others. they would be most likely forces.

all evidence supports me on this. if kobe can only make 45% of 19 shots.....no way in hell he is making over 42 or 43% of 23 shots. think about that.....he would be taking 21% more shots per game. that is a ton.

my guess is that we would see something around 10 of 23 per game averages for kobe.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I mostly agree with you on this. It is a TEAM game, not one-on-one. Still, there HAS to be value in LEADING teams to championships, too. After all, the game is still about winning. Russell's play is very under-rated here, and I believe that too many casual fans look at his offensive numbers and automatically assume that he was a "Ben Wallace" type of player. Nothing could be further from the truth. He did whatever it took to win. If he had to average 18 ppg and 24 rpg, he did. If he had to put up a 30-40 in a game seven (which included 14-17 from the FT line), he did. If he had to average 18 ppg and shoot .702 in the Finals, he did. If he had to lead his team in scoring in a Finals' series, he did. And that gets back to the point of LEADING a team to a title.

I am not naive enough to believe that Russell could have led the 62-63 Warriors to even a winning season, much less a title...but when he was given the right personnel, he LED them to a title. Too often we just take these things for granted. The bottom line is that he LED his teams to 27 playoff series wins in 29 tries, and 11 rings in 13 seasons (as well as two straight NCAA titles, and a Gold Medal.) All of that HAS to count for something in these GOAT discussions.[/QUOTE]

totally agree. but there has to be varying degrees of credit for leading a team to a title. for example....wade winning and playing amazing in 06 has to yield him more credit than kobe winning this year while playing two subpar series and a sub par finals with the most loaded team in the league.

i feel like that is where people on here really struggle. they equate shaq/kobe title in 02 to duncan's in 03. nothing could be further from the truth. what duncan did in 03 blows that out of the water.

all titles should not yield the same amount of credit for the best player. kg doesn't deserve the same amount of credit that hakeem does....etc.

that part of the ISH thinking really needs to improve.

Ginobli...Im pretty sure Kobe has been shooting around 45-46% while being the Number 1 Option...Which is over a 6 yr span...In which he has shot the ball more than 19 times per game.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]one season is a huge difference from a career. kobe shoots 45% from the field on 19 shots for his career.

if he were to shoot 4 more times per game. that is 21% more shots per game.....his fg% would drop. that is a simple fact. there is no debating this. why? simply because those extra 4 shots would not be of the same quality as the others. they would be most likely forces.

[B]all evidence supports me on this.[/B] if kobe can only make 45% of 19 shots.....no way in hell he is making over 42 or 43% of 23 shots. think about that.....he would be taking 21% more shots per game. that is a ton.

my guess is that we would see something around 10 of 23 per game averages for kobe.[/QUOTE]
None of the evidence supports you on this. 5 seasons he has averaged 22+ FGA, and in every one of those he has shot 45+%.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Ginobli...Im pretty sure Kobe has been shooting around 45-46% while being the Number 1 Option...Which is over a 6 yr span...In which he has shot the ball more than 19 times per game.[/QUOTE]

and your point is? we are talking about kobe shooting 23 times a game. are you saying his career fg% would not drop if kobe averaged 23 shots a game? keep in mind that is a 21% increase in shots per game.

now....kobe has only shot 23 or more shots per game in 2 seasons. it stands to logic and reason that kobe's fg% would take a hit if he took 21% more shots per game....especially if he was playing in meaningful games on winning teams like he has throughout his career.

am i missing something?

[QUOTE=barbaroi]None of the evidence supports you on this. 5 seasons he has averaged 22+ FGA, and in every one of those he has shot 45+%.[/QUOTE]

and he's played 14 seasons.

so what are you people saying?

are you honestly saying that kobe could take 21% more shots per game and maintain his fg% for his career?

i'm sorry....but that is just idiotic.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]and he's played 14 seasons.

so what are you people saying?

are you honestly saying that kobe could take 21% more shots per game and maintain his fg% for his career?

i'm sorry....but that is just idiotic.[/QUOTE]
First of all, 22 is only 15% more than 19. Second of all, he's shown that he can do it, so you have no argument whatsoever.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]First of all, 22 is only 15% more than 19. Second of all, he's shown that he can do it, so you have no argument whatsoever.[/QUOTE]

we were talking about 23 dude...not 22. first of all.

and just because he has shown he can do it in a few seasons of his career does not mean he could average that for his career.

how do you not see this.

do you not understand basic math? imagine a rookie kobe having to shoot 15 shots rather than 6. or a 2nd year kobe having to shoot 20 shots rather than 12. and so on and so on.

i just doesn't work.

again....we are talking about CAREER...not prime....not individual seasons. CAREER dude.....CAREER.

I remember seeing a stat last year that if Kobe were to hit his next 3000 shots or something, he would still have a lower shooting % than Jordan.

Ginobli...I understand what your saying from a career standpoint...But if you wanna put things in perspective...He has BEEN shooting more than 19shot pg for 6yr span as the Num 1 option and is shooting around 45-46%...And basically, if we wanna use an "If" he shoots about 23 shots...Then we have to assume he would be the num 1 option as he is now in-which he is shooting about 45-46% while shooting more than 19 shots pg.

I understand you dislike Bryant...But I really fail to see how you cannot put these 2 things together.


Anyway, arguing "if's" can go nowhere.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]I remember seeing a stat last year that if Kobe were to hit his next 3000 shots or something, he would still have a lower shooting % than Jordan.[/QUOTE]
Then you remember a false stat, because he would only have had to have hit 834 more, or about 59 per season , or about .95 per game to have averaged the same FG%.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Ginobli...I understand what your saying from a career standpoint...But if you wanna put things in perspective...He has BEEN shooting more than 19shot pg for 6yr span as the Num 1 option and is shooting around 45-46%...And basically, if we wanna use an "If" he shoots about 23 shots...Then we have to assume he would be the num 1 option as he is now in-which he is shooting about 45-46% while shooting more than 19 shots pg.

I understand you dislike Bryant...But I really fail to see how you cannot put these 2 things together.


Anyway, arguing "if's" can go nowhere.[/QUOTE]

this has nothing to do with kobe actually. it can be used for any player.

it is absurd to think that kobe could maintain his fg% while taking 21% more shots for his career. its really not possible.

you can't pick 6 years out of 14 as evidence.

i can cherry pick a number of years he would have had no chance to shoot even 40% while taking at least 23 shots a game.

now....if you want to talk about his prime only....then yes....kobe could shoot 23 shots a game and maintain around 45% from the field.

but again...we are talking about his entire career....not just his prime.

for example. kobe would have had to average around 15 shots as a rookie. he shot 41.7%.....if he took 9 more shots per game....at best he would shoot 38%.

same can be applied to his 2nd year. he shot 42.8 percent. his next 2 years he only shot 15.6 shots and 17.9 respectively. in 04 he shot 18 shots at 43.8%.....if he had to take 5 more shots per game that would take a hit as well.

in 05 he shot 43.3% on 20 shots. increase that by 3 and it drops again.

sorry dude....i just don't see where you are coming from at all.

so you think jordan could have shot 27 shots per game and maintained his averages? LOL

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Then you remember a false stat, because he would only have had to have hit 834 more, or about 59 per season , or about .95 per game to have averaged the same FG%.[/QUOTE]

Maybe the number was 1000 or something. I forgot the exact number. Point was that it was an impossible number of consecutive shots that Bryant would have to hit.