Defense vs. Offense

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I think its debatable. I personally think Magic was the higher impact player. I'd take Magic. And nobody would bat an eye at me for saying so.

Doesn't that mean individual offense matters more? I mean, if defense was really of higher value...then Hakeem would simply have easily been a better player than Magic.[/quote]

I'm not suggesting that defense matters more. What I am saying..is Hakeem was more versatile and a better all-around player...not sure if that's debatable. Lets be real, Hakeem's impact on the defensive end really doesn't take a back seat to anyone, whereas Magic...well he wasn't just another run in the mill offensive player. The guy arguably had the greatest impact on that end.

It's basically a pick'em imo.

[QUOTE=catch24]I'm not suggesting that defense matters more. What I am saying..is Hakeem was more versatile and a better all-around player...not sure if that's debatable. Lets be real, Hakeem's impact on the defensive end really doesn't take a back seat to anyone, whereas Magic...well he wasn't just another run in the mill offensive player. The guy arguably had the greatest impact on that end.

It's basically a pick'em imo.[/QUOTE]

I understand. But if Hakeem was that good defensively and also a truly great offensive player as well....and Magic was pretty much strictly an offensive player.

Doesn't that imply that offensive brilliance is more valuable than defensive brilliance.

There are other examples as well.

Wouldn't that imply that a player like KG should be easily better than Barkley? KG played all time great defense....Barkley admittedly didn't care about defense at all. But anyone that watched them both play should be willing to admit that Barkley vs KG overall is a legit debate. And so I don't see how defense in this scenario can be more valuable. Because we are taking some of the highest impact defenders ever...that also were very good to great offensive players...and comparing them to strictly offensive players and its debatable as to which player is superior.

Just doesn't add up if defense is worth more.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I understand. But if Hakeem was that good defensively and also a truly great offensive player as well....and Magic was pretty much strictly an offensive player.

Doesn't that imply that offensive brilliance is more valuable than defensive brilliance.[/quote]

I don't think so. From what I understand, most people rank Magic higher all-time, and that's because of the Lakers team accomplishments (which concurrently is the reason people would take Magic>>>Hakeem). I'm not taking anything away from him; Magic was driving force of those dynasty teams, but can you honestly say with a straight face that he was the better player?

You got me looking like a hypocrite over here man. I just got finished making a thread on his comeback :oldlol:

[QUOTE=catch24]I don't think so. From what I understand, most people rank Magic higher all-time, and that's because of the Lakers team accomplishments (which concurrently is the reason people would take Magic>>>Hakeem). I'm not taking anything away from him; Magic was driving force of those dynasty teams, but can you honestly say with a straight face that he was the better player?

You got me looking like a hypocrite over here man. I just got finished making a thread on his comeback :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Did you watch Magic play? Absolutely I can say he was a better player with a straight face. I kind of hope you didn't see Magic and Hakeem play the majority of their careers. LOL at acting like its a stretch to say Magic was just a better basketball player. I'd take Magic over Hakeem in a heartbeat to start a team.

But Magic doesn't even have to be better for me to prove my point. It just has to be debatable.

Take the 89 season. Hakeem put up something like 25/14/2....he was great offensively and led the league in defensive win shares. Easily one of the best defenders in the league.

Who do I think was better that year? Magic...not a doubt in my mind. And Magic hardly played a lick of defense....at least not compared to Hakeem.

[QUOTE]but can you honestly say with a straight face that he was the better player?[/QUOTE]

:facepalm

[QUOTE=PHILA]:facepalm[/QUOTE]

Yep.

But in his defense...there is no way he actually saw them both play the majority of their careers. I've never heard anyone that actually watched from 1980 onwards that would question someone saying Magic was a better basketball player than Hakeem.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Did you watch Magic play? Absolutely I can say he was a better player with a straight face. I kind of hope you didn't see Magic and Hakeem play the majority of their careers. LOL at acting like its a stretch to say Magic was just a better basketball player. I'd take Magic over Hakeem in a heartbeat to start a team.[/quote]

What's with the lame questions? I wouldn't be dropping comments had I not seen him play. Relax guy. Strictly off basketball skills and ability, Hakeem was the better player. Hakeem was better defensively, a better rebounder and scorer; Magic had him beat in playmaking. That's really it. I've watched both play and am comfortable with this opinion.

I get the impression you would take Magic because of his intangibles (e.g, clutch-play, leadership and high iq).

That's fine. :confusedshrug:

[quote]But Magic doesn't even have to be better for me to prove my point. It just has to be debatable[/quote]

I never said it wasn't debatable. All I'm really asking is if you honestly believe Magic, from an all-around standpoint, was better? I fail to see it.

[QUOTE=catch24]What's with the lame questions? I wouldn't be commenting if I didn't him play. Relax guy. Strictly off basketball skills and ability, Hakeem was the better player. Hakeem was a better defensive player, rebounder and scorer; Magic had him beat in playmaking. That's really it. I've watched both play and am comfortable with this opinion.

I get the impression you would take Magic because of his intangibles (e.g, clutch-play, leadership and high iq).

That's fine. :confusedshrug:



I never said it wasn't debatable. All I'm really asking is if you honestly believe Magic, from an all-around standpoint, was better? I fail to see it.[/QUOTE]

Yes Yes Yes. I would take Magic over Hakeem because I think Magic was just a better basketball player.

I think he had a bigger impact on the game. I asked the question because honestly it sounds like you didn't see either of them play.

This is exactly my point with these lame ass offense vs offense and defense vs defense breakdowns. You lose the true impact of some players...and some players get over-rated.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

I think he had a bigger impact on the game. I asked the question because honestly it sounds like you didn't see either of them play.[/quote]

What? For thinking Hakeem was better? This makes utterly no sense at all.

I thought Hakeem had just as much impact on his teams as Magic. My argument is that had his management surrounded him with better casts, he'd be up there with Magic and some of the other legends. Of course this is speculation, but that's how good I thought the guy was.

[QUOTE=catch24]What? For thinking Hakeem was better? This makes utterly no sense at all.

I thought Hakeem had just as much impact on his teams as Magic. My argument is that had his management surrounded him with better casts, he'd be up there with Magic and some of the other legends. Of course this is speculation, but that's how good I thought the guy was.[/QUOTE]

not for saying that...for saying:

"can you honestly tell me with a straight face that you thought magic was better....i just don't see it"

for that.

so you think they are debatable. we both agree that hakeem was a far superior defender and also a great offensive player. so how can they be debatable if defense (not saying you are saying this..but this is to the others) is more important individually. you have one of the greatest impact defenders ever and also a great offensive player vs an all time great offensive player that played very little defense comparatively. if defense was truly more valuable individually...then Hakeem would be the clear cut better player. But that of course just is not the case.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]not for saying that...for saying:

"can you honestly tell me with a straight face that you thought magic was better....i just don't see it"

for that.[/QUOTE]

When I proposed that question I was merely going off basketball skills. I don't see how Magic had more basketball skills than Hakeem. :confusedshrug:

Hakeem: Elite rebounding, legendary defense, elite scoring, great leadership (must take some when you're leading the cast that he was surrounded with to the Finals 2x), great clutch play

vs.

Magic: Great rebounding, legendary playmaking, below average defense, great scoring, first-class leadership qualities, great clutch-play.

Magic had more weaknesses, imo.

Hakeem also had pretty damn good playmaking abilities. Probably the best at his position during his peak...or prime.

[QUOTE=catch24]When I proposed that question I was merely going off basketball skills. I don't see how Magic had more basketball skills than Hakeem. :confusedshrug:

Hakeem: Elite rebounding, legendary defense, elite scoring, great leadership (must take some when you're leading the cast that he was surrounded with to the Finals 2x), great clutch play

vs.

Magic: Great rebounding, legendary playmaking, below average defense, great scoring, first-class leadership qualities, great clutch-play.

Magic had more weaknesses, imo.[/QUOTE]

Again, this is my problem with breaking down players like this. The true value of a player can often be lost...or weakened....or some can be over-rated.

Until we realize that some aspects of basketball are more valuable than others, we'll be stuck in this weird area in which you can argue on paper that Pippen is better than Magic or that KG was easily better than Barkley/Dirk. A lot is lost in those breakdowns. Just my opinion though.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Again, this is my problem with breaking down players like this. The true value of a player can often be lost...or weakened....or some can be over-rated.[/quote]

Like I said, Hakeem brought more to his teams...and HAD to do more for them to even be considered contenders.

Agree to disagree.

[quote]Until we realize that some aspects of basketball are more valuable than others, we'll be stuck in this weird area in which you can argue on paper that Pippen is better than Magic or that KG was easily better than Barkley/Dirk. A lot is lost in those breakdowns. Just my opinion though.[/QUOTE]

Pippen vs. Barkley/Dirk is a little different imo. While Pipp's defense was all-time great, he didn't have the impact Hakeem did...at least not enough to out-weigh Magic's offensive abilities.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Again, this is my problem with breaking down players like this. The true value of a player can often be lost...or weakened....or some can be over-rated.

Until we realize that some aspects of basketball are more valuable than others, we'll be stuck in this weird area in which you can argue on paper that Pippen is better than Magic or that KG was easily better than Barkley/Dirk. A lot is lost in those breakdowns. Just my opinion though.[/QUOTE]
Not at all..

You were criticizing one of the posters you were arguing with before for using Bill Russel as an example of defense trumping offense.. because he was the only true example of a defensive superstar who had a GOAT level impact.

But then you turn around and use the only offensive player of all time[who didnt really play defense] who had a GOAT level impact by constantly referencing Magic Johnson. You're doing the very same thing you called others out on. Magic Johnson is the only player in anyone's top ten that didn't play any defense. So you're being a hypocrite here.

And with regards to bringing up Pippen versus Magic the comparison still works out perfectly if you break it down into parts. You have:

Offensive Impact
Defensive Impact
Intangibles[which include ability to motivate/lead, clutch ability, etc]

Magic DESTROYS Pippen in two of those categories.. which is why he's considered a much better player.

In regards to Mourning versus Barkley, Barkley beats Mourning by a fair amount offensively and defensively the gap isn't as large between the two because of Barkley's monster rebounding. Simply put, Barkley's gap in offense is bigger than his gap in defense in comparison to Mourning. Barkley actually had better intangibles too.. better in the clutch.. less of a headcase[didn't get rattled]. So thats two categories he beats Mourning in out of three. The only thing Mourning did better than Barkley was play defense not including rebounding.:confusedshrug: