Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]See This is Why Media Sucks...I Had To Live and Listen to Jordan Stans (Not Real Basketball Fans) For Years. None of Them Knew How Good Pippen Was Because He Wasn`t Scoring 30 PPG but For Real NBA Fans Who Knew The Game and Watched The Whole Scenario We Knew How Good Pippen Was and in 1993-94 It Was Prooven That He Was Easily a Top 6 Player in the League and In a Time Way More Competitive than the 00s and 10s. You had Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq etc. Tough Competition and Pippen Prooved How Good of a Team Player He Is By Making Others Better More than Jordan Could, Rebounding, Stealing, Being the Best Perimeter Defender in the Game, Scoring, Driving to the Basket, Passing the Ball and Handling It With Great Notion etc. Pippen was a Superstar in his Own Right.[/B][/QUOTE]

Nobody is saying he wasn't a great player (superstar is a big reach). What some of us have mentioned is, he wouldn't have been that without MJ.

You wouldn't know about making teammates better since Chuck never did that.

Btw… everything people hail Pip for doing MJ did better.

Yeah including passing and defense.

Pip would get torched far too frequently compared to MJ. Both great help defenders, MJ just better.

[QUOTE=andgar923]Nobody is saying he wasn't a great player (superstar is a big reach). What some of us have mentioned is, he wouldn't have been that without MJ.

You wouldn't know about making teammates better since Chuck never did that.

Btw… everything people hail Pip for doing MJ did better.

Yeah including passing and defense.

Pip would get torched far too frequently compared to MJ. Both great help defenders, MJ just better.[/QUOTE]

:no: :facepalm :rolleyes:

[B]Pippen Was A Better Natural Play-Maker than Jordan and Ofcourse Defender. Don`t Give Me This Crap. His LEAD THE WHOLE PLAY-OFFS IN DEFENSIVE RATING AS A SF and Averaged Great Numbers in the 1991 NBA Finals. He Was a Superstar. Don`t Give Me This Media Fan Boy Hype Crap About Jordan Being Perfect I Was There To Watch Both Join Forces.

Jordan is the Superstar that Benefited the Most By Playing with Great Teamates from 87 on Like Very Few of His Peers from that Era. Having Pippen a Legit Top 6 Player in the Game is Blessing for Any Player, Let Alone the Best Player.

Barkley Not Making Teamates Better? What Drugs Are You Using? Cocaine? Marijuana? Mushrooms?

"for 3 years from 87- 90 Charles was the overall most dominating player in the league when you factored in all categories- points, rebounds, assist, blocks, steals and fg% that is why he won the Schick MVP award for the overall best team player 3 straight years."

Barkley has a Higher Winning% than Jordan, Pippen and Grant from 1987 to 1990 With Weaker Casts. Barkley is 2nd to Magic Ever for Offensive Rating Efficiency Per Possesion All Time (and he had no Jabbar, Worthy, McAdoo and Scorers like that). How is That Not Making Others Better? Barkley Averaged 7 RPG more than Jordan and 1.5 Assist Less while Being the Same Height as Jordan.

Jordan Leaves The Bulls in 1993-94 = Just 2 Wins Less and Pippen Was Robbed Play after Play From the NBA Finals in 7 Games vs the Knicks.

Barkley Leaves Phily what Happened to the Sixers in 1992-93?

Jordan Was Lucky to Play With Pippen in HIS WHOLE PRIME AND PIPS PRIME. LUCKY!!![/B]

[QUOTE=Round Mound]:no: :facepalm :rolleyes:

[B][SIZE="3"]Pippen Was A Better Natural Play-Maker than Jordan and Ofcourse Defender. Don`t Give Me This Crap[/SIZE]. His LEAD THE WHOLE PLAY-OFFS IN DEFENSIVE RATING AS A SF and Averaged Great Numbers in the 1991 NBA Finals. He Was a Superstar. Don`t Give Me This Media Fan Boy Hype Crap About Jordan Being Perfect I Was There To Watch Both Join Forces.

Jordan is the Superstar that Benefited the Most By Playing with Great Teamates from 87 on Like Very Few of His Peers from that Era. Having Pippen a Legit Top 6 Player in the Game is Blessing for Any Player, Let Alone the Best Player.

Barkley Not Making Teamates Better? What Drugs Are You Using? Cocaine? Marijuana? Mushrooms?

"for 3 years from 87- 90 Charles was the overall most dominating player in the league when you factored in all categories- points, rebounds, assist, blocks, steals and fg% that is why he won the Schick MVP award for the overall best team player 3 straight years."

Barkley has a Higher Winning% than Jordan, Pippen and Grant from 1987 to 1990 With Weaker Casts. Barkley is 2nd to Magic Ever for Offensive Rating Efficiency Per Possesion All Time (and he had no Jabbar, Worthy, McAdoo and Scorers like that). How is That Not Making Others Better? Barkley Averaged 7 RPG more than Jordan and 1.5 Assist Less while Being the Same Height as Jordan.

Jordan Leaves The Bulls in 1993-94 = Just 2 Wins Less and Pippen Was Robbed Play after Play From the NBA Finals in 7 Games vs the Knicks.

Barkley Leaves Phily what Happened to the Sixers in 1992-93?

[SIZE="3"]Jordan Was Lucky to Play With Pippen in HIS WHOLE PRIME AND PIPS PRIME. LUCKY!!![/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]

[B]Fact 1[/B]: Pipped LOOKED naturally better playmaker because all focus on offense & defense was on MJ. MJ was the REAL & ONLY Natural leader & playmaker of Bulls.

another example, Kobe looked terrific 30 ppg player as Shaq's 2nd fiddle when all the offense & defensive focus was built built on stopping shaq.

[COLOR="DarkRed"][/COLOR][B]Same Pippen struggled to be natural leader & playmaker for PORTLAND & 1994-1995 BULLS without MJ. With MJ, with all the main responsibility of offense & winning on MJ, Pippen LOOKED good. But not soo good without MJ as BULL & BLAZER & ROCKET!

in other words, Pippen is EXTREMELY LUCKLY to play as a side kick of GOAT.Other players like Clyde, Barkley, Ewing etc etc would've probably become better side kick than Pippen playing alongside GOAT. we'll never know.[/B]

[QUOTE=andgar923]Who knows if he would've won without Pip. Nobody is saying that MJ didn't need him to win.

But there's a difference in making somebody a HOF player, and being instrumental in helping in winning rings. MJ was already killing the league before Pip. People were already saying how special he was, he was already being hailed and breaking records. Some even said he was the best player of all time before he won a ring.[/QUOTE]

Jordan didn't make Pippen a HOFer. Pippen would've likely gotten there himself. Heck, he was arguably the MVP the year Jordan left. I don't think we saw Pippen reach his ceiling because of the role he played for Jordan and for his team to win.

While Jordan was the better player, I think the irony is that Jordan would've had a worse career had he not met Pippen and I think Pippen would've had a better career without Jordan. Not in the sense that Pippen would've won more titles elsewhere, but in the sense that people wouldn't view him as simply Jordan's sidekick and people like yourself wouldn't say such things as "Jordan made Pippen".

It must suck to be a Jordan stan. Your favorite player is done for playing good. So all you can do is root for the other great players to fail :oldlol:

[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]It must suck to be a Jordan stan. Your favorite player is done for playing good. So all you can do is root for the other great players to fail :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBseRlgoSLc[/url]

This performance is literally worth 50 regular season games with +60% shooting.

Scouts and GM's take??? :roll: Should I post Kwame Brown's

Of course Pip had talent, but acting like Jordan had no influence or didn't help mold it, is comical. Its been said Pip admired Jordan, how Jordan took him under his wing and would work with him after practice. He saw Pip's potential and after getting his ass handed too him, had a player who listened and wasn't scared to learn. Pip himself stated most of his instincts came from going against Jordan daily, how his defense improved from guarding Jordan daily. Yet according to you guys none of this benefited Pippen:oldlol:

[I]With fellow Bull Michael Jordan as a motivational and instructional mentor, Pippen refined his skills and slowly developed many new ones over his career. Jordan and Pippen frequently played one-on-one outside of team practices simply to hone each other's skills on offense and defense[/I]


[I]Michael Jordan took Pippen under his wing, and became his mentor along with a competitive teammate. [B]Both the players were known to practice alone in order to work on each other’s skills and abilities[/B]. As time went on, Pippen worked on improving his skills.[/I]

I love how people use the 94 season as proof....last time I checked that player was a result of what tireless workout sessions with Jordan and seeing a all time great play every night.

From Pip himself: While Jordan’s torrid scoring would slightly slow over the years and he learned to put greater reliance on teammates,[B] it was the endless practice sessions that Pippen said in which the greatest improvements were made.[/B]

“He was very competitive, [B]so he went at me and that helped me learn[/B],” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Maybe Dean Smith is what elevated Jordan to the top 5 all-time? That is what the "Jordan made Pippen" logic would suggest. [/QUOTE]

I got out of this discussion with 97 Bulls cause I wasn't really getting any good responses back to my points and was basically stating the same thing over and over again. But I just want to point out, whether you think I'm overstating Jordan's impact on Pippen or not, with all the perceived discrediting of Pippen I was accused of just cause I brought up Jordan being instrumental to Pippen's success, I brought up this Dean Smith/Jordan example multiple times to illustrate that it doesn't take anything away from Pippen cause then you could apply that same logic to Jordan with Dean Smith, and really anyone in history cause they usually learn from someone. I just don't think it should diminish Jordan at all by assuming that any other superstar would've done the same thing or to the same extent.

[QUOTE=LeBird]

While Jordan was the better player, I think the irony is that Jordan would've had a worse career had he not met Pippen and I think Pippen would've had a better career without Jordan. Not in the sense that Pippen would've won more titles elsewhere, but in the sense that people wouldn't view him as simply Jordan's sidekick and people like yourself wouldn't say such things as "Jordan made Pippen".[/QUOTE]

There's really no one from the late 80s-90s that is mentioned more then Pippen except for Jordan, and probably the only players from that era that people definitely rank over him are Jordan and Hakeem, and most rank Barkley and Malone over him as well. Players like David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, and Gary Payton are mentioned nowhere near as much and most of the time are considered below them. If Pippen is on another team, he's most likely rarely ever mentioned just like those other players with barely as many people expressing such a high opinion for him.

By the way, I left out Shaq cause most of his career and success and came after the 90s.

[QUOTE=guy]I got out of this discussion with 97 Bulls cause I wasn't really getting any good responses back to my points and was basically stating the same thing over and over again. But I just want to point, whether you think I'm overstating Jordan's impact on Pippen or not, with all the perceived discrediting of Pippen I was accused of just cause I brought up Jordan being instrumental to Pippen's success, I brought up this Dean Smith/Jordan example multiple times to illustrate that it doesn't take anything away from Pippen cause then you could apply that same logic to Jordan with Dean Smith, and really anyone in history cause they usually learn from someone. I just don't think it should diminish Jordan at all by assuming that any other superstar would've done the same thing or to the same extent.[/QUOTE]

I doubt anybody is arguing that Dean made MJ into a better player. Hell, we can even go as far as to say that Larry Jordan (his brother) pushed MJ to become better.

These Pippen fans get so upset over it, even tho it is a FACT. Pip, Mj, coaches, teammates, players, journalists, they've all stated this. Not something we made up or are exaggerating.

They simply will never understand this.

They take it as a slap in the face "Oh you Jordan stans are the worst!!!" but we're simply stating the FACTS. But

[QUOTE=LeBird]Jordan didn't make Pippen a HOFer. Pippen would've likely gotten there himself. Heck, he was arguably the MVP the year Jordan left. I don't think we saw Pippen reach his ceiling because of the role he played for Jordan and for his team to win.

While Jordan was the better player, I think the irony is that Jordan would've had a worse career had he not met Pippen and I think Pippen would've had a better career without Jordan. Not in the sense that Pippen would've won more titles elsewhere, but in the sense that people wouldn't view him as simply Jordan's sidekick and people like yourself wouldn't say such things as "Jordan made Pippen".[/QUOTE]

Right. Just like Lebron would've had a worse career had he not joined forces w/ Wade and Miami. One could also argue Wade would've had a better career.

Matter of fact, now that I think about it, the same applies for Bird / Mchale. Crazy.

[QUOTE=LeBird][B][SIZE="4"]Jordan didn't make Pippen a HOFer. Pippen would've likely gotten there himself.[/SIZE][/B] Heck, he was arguably the MVP the year Jordan left. I don't think we saw Pippen reach his ceiling because of the role he played for Jordan and for his team to win.

While Jordan was the better player, [B][SIZE="3"]I think the irony is that Jordan would've had a worse career had he not met Pippen and I think Pippen would've had a better career without Jordan.[/SIZE][/B] Not in the sense that Pippen would've won more titles elsewhere, but in the sense that people wouldn't view him as simply Jordan's sidekick and people like yourself wouldn't say such things as "Jordan made Pippen".[/QUOTE]

[U][B]Fact # 1[/B][/U]: Because [B]Pippen never had a proper offensive skillset[/B] like Kobe, wade etc, he was bound to make it to all-star RESERVES or 1-2 years as all-star STARTER in his absolute peak prime.

THATS ABOUT IT !!!!!.

[B]Pippen's offensive was mostly in transition, attacking the basket[/B]. Pippen struggled with his jump shot throughout his career. [B]Pippen's decision making was often criticized in very close game[/B] as he did not had proper post-up game or even a pull-up jumper or even a mid-range game.

Pippen's whole career, you see his scoring bounces off MJs primary offensive moves. He wanted to score but he was NOT wade-like, LBJ-like, Durant-like or Kobe-like. [B]His release on his jumpshot was awkward too like too stiff & wooden hence hit the iron harder & bounced off it wasnt swishing. His FT% even more horrendrous.[/B]

[B][U]The following things happened as Jordan took Pippen into his wings & improved him in practices:[/U][/B]

[I]-Pippen immitated MJ in head fakes, fake moves, jab step fake & footwork.
-Pippen immitated MJ around the basket to finish off dunks & up & under lay ups.
-Pippen's defense became unstoppable as he guarded MJ in every practice.
-Pippen became a HOF player because of MJ.
-Pippen became Top 5 NBA Players in his peak prime because of MJ.
-Pippen consistantly became an all-star STARTER because of MJ.
-Pippen was rated ahead of better players than him like Dominique, Ewing, Clyde, Barkley etc etc whom all had better jumpers, offense & team leadership than Scottie ever did.[/I]

[B]despite practicing with MJ & playing 11 yrs along side MJ. Pippen still had glaring difficulty in shooting mid-range to long range Jumpshots.[/B]

[I][B]-His release was still too hard & awkward.
-He barely got 6 inches in the air for "jump"shot. :facepalm hence his shots hit the rim harder more often than[/B][/I]

A reason why despite signing 65 million dollar 4 yrs contract with HOU & PORTLAND, pippen failed in his leadership badly. His jumpshot was exposed. His leadership was badly exposed by KINGS & Shaq & Kobe led LAL in post-season.

Basketball is a team sport. No one has and no one will ever win a game, a series or championship by himself.

[QUOTE=trabash]Basketball is a team sport. No one has and no one will ever win a game, a series or championship by himself.[/QUOTE]

But still.

-MJ made Pippen a 1st ballot HOF.
-MJ made Pippen a Top 20 NBA players ever.
-MJ made Pippen into Top 5 NBA players in his peak prime.

What Pippen made of himself:

-All-star RESERVE
-All-star STARTER for 2-3 season.

which he was GOOD ENOUGH for.

Rest of the Pippen's career is all thanks to playing alongside GOAT.

I can see 1990 - 1998 MJ winning 6 rings with following duos:

-Jordan/Drexler
-Jordan/'Nique
-Jordan/Barkley
-Jordan/Ewing
-Jordan/Mourning

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Right. Just like Lebron would've had a worse career had he not joined forces w/ Wade and Miami. One could also argue Wade would've had a better career.

Matter of fact, now that I think about it, the same applies for Bird / Mchale. Crazy.[/QUOTE]
So why is this logic only applied to Scottie Pippen?