Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen's as a leader

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]You're telling me 99' Pippen had the same athletic ability 98' Pippen had? Even 98' Pippen had declined a bit. Pippen peaked from 1994-1996 and then gradually declined in subsequent years. After the 98' injury he simply couldn't perform at an elite level anymore (at least not on a consistent basis). In 99' and 00' he was still a good player, especially on defense. After that he declined further in 2001-2003 where he was a role player and in his final year, 2004, he was useless and only played about 20 games.

Saying 99' Pippen was 33 and the same as prime Pippen is like saying 32 year old Wade this year was comparable to prime Wade. They did not get the luxury of declining gradually due to various injuries. Amare, unfortunately, is another example of this. He became a role player at age 30.[/QUOTE]

Pippen played every game for the Rockets that season, and led the team in minutes played.

No player at age 33 is exactly the same as they would be in year's prior. Not even Jordan, he had lost a bit of athleticism by that age too.

But 33 isn't exactly time to ship a player off the retirement home either. Pippen played for several more years after that and he was still able to get up and throw down some pretty nice dunks that year, it's hardly like he was hobbling up and down the court in a wheelchair.

His ability to fit in with the Rockets and the in-fighting with Barkley remains though, if he was the tremendous leader who was easily able to fit into any role, one should ask why he couldn't do a little bit better there with two other HOF players.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]Pippen played every game for the Rockets that season, and led the team in minutes played.

No player at age 33 is exactly the same as they would be in year's prior. Not even Jordan, he had lost a bit of athleticism by that age too.

But 33 isn't exactly time to ship a player off the retirement home either. Pippen played for several more years after that and he was still able to get up and throw down some pretty nice dunks that year, it's hardly like he was hobbling up and down the court in a wheelchair.

His ability to fit in with the Rockets and the in-fighting with Barkley remains though, if he was the tremendous leader who was easily able to fit into any role, one should ask why he couldn't do a little bit better there with two other HOF players.[/QUOTE]
Because those hall of famers were old too. I believe I asked you this before. If you feel Pippen should've been winning leading teams to championships even at 33/34, then you must feel the same about Larry Bird in the early 90s.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]
Phil probably figured Scottie would have another migraine if the play was drawn up for him, instead he had the worst case of PMS in recorded History.

Dat Leadership.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll:

You are taking the opposite position that you did on Wade. 33 versus 32 is a gradual decline absent an external factor like an injury. Wade at 33 should be similar to Wade at the end of last season. He clearly is no longer prime Wade. Pippen had a back injury at the end of the 98' season. That explains the drop-off in athleticism.

Here is a good thread on the 99' Rockets. [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187444[/url]

They did go from 41-41 to a 51 win pace with Pippen, despite losing Drexler and Kevin Willis (Hakeem did miss half of 98' but they were only 26-21 when he played).

[QUOTE]His ability to fit in with the Rockets and the in-fighting with Barkley remains though, if he was the tremendous leader who was easily able to fit into any role, one should ask why he couldn't do a little bit better there with two other HOF players.[/QUOTE]

It was because Barkley showed up to start the season 20 pounds overweight and Pippen called him out for it. If MJ did the same thing he would have been praised for it. He also wasn't the leader in Houston. He joined a team where there were established veterans. That was a different scenario than him being an incumbent in Chicago or joined a team with younger players in Portland.

If he was a tremendous leader who could fit anywhere why couldn't MJ in Washington? Or early in his career in Chicago? Why couldn't he impose his will on his teammates then? If what happened in Houston was repeated in Portland it would be important but that was one year in a 17 year career.

[QUOTE=Barstool]It was more the system and the fact that they were way past their primes. [B]Pippen was given practically no opportunities to best exploit his skills and talents offensively that one season on the Rockets. It wasn't an ego thing at all. Not only that, but he was used to being the leader and controlling everything and he really wasn't allowed to be a leader on the Rockets. He was much happier on the Blazers even if he wasn't scoring because he was able to assert himself more and he was obviously the team leader.[/B] I mean if you thought the "jail blazers" were combustible during that time...just think what they would have been without Scottie Pippen. I Saw almost every Blazer game he played with them and he had this incredibly calming effect on the entire team when he was in there and usually he was playing pg running the offense because Damon Stoudamire was absolutely useless as a pg.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240042[/url]

[QUOTE]Pippen played for several more years after that and he was still able to get up and throw down some pretty nice dunks that year, it's hardly like he was hobbling up and down the court in a wheelchair. [/QUOTE]

Yeah but he didn't have the same quickness, for example, which reduced his ability on defense. There really is no one who brings up Houston outside of people here with a certain "agenda." What happened there is pretty straightforward. Look at the threads on ISH that discussed the issue.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]
[B]Easy to be Mr. Likeable and the Nice Guy when you don't have to [I]actually[/I] lead.[/B] A valuable lesson Mr. Pippen learned when he was asked to be that guy. But he said, 'thanks but no thanks'.

[IMG]http://solecollector.com/media/u/images/Listt%205.jpg[/IMG]

And the second 3-peat is History.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

BINGO

DonDadda ... he's on FIRE

[QUOTE]It was because Barkley showed up to start the season 20 pounds overweight and Pippen called him out for it. If MJ did the same thing he would have been praised for it.[/QUOTE]
And it's this exact double standard that drives me insane. And the Jordan brigade dont care about talking out of both sides of theor mouth.

Jordan never won a playoffs series without Pippen.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Because those hall of famers were old too. I believe I asked you this before. If you feel Pippen should've been winning leading teams to championships even at 33/34, then you must feel the same about Larry Bird in the early 90s.[/QUOTE]

That is what they do with Pippen. They take a few of the worst aspects of a 17 year record. At least, though, in those cases we are dealing with facts versus mythology. In 2000 he had a good bounce back year, was all-star caliber and a top player at his position and was the leader of the second best team in the league. By 2001 he was 35 and a role player whose primary value came from leadership and defensive versatility but Pippen in 2000 was a good player, although no longer an elite player like prime Pippen.

[QUOTE]And it's this exact double standard that drives me insane. And the Jordan brigade dont care about talking out of both sides of theor mouth.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. And the brigade consists of a dozen or so people. There are only a handful of Pippen fans to contest their numerous assertions. It was a lot better when we had Fatal9 and ShaqAttack3234 in the mix to call out some of the myths being promoted about Pippen.

They keep bringing up what Pippen did without Jordan but then complain when we look at what Mike did without Pippen. I have no problem with Pip's record post-Chicago, or in 94' and 95'. 2000 was a very enjoyable run.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]And it's this exact double standard that drives me insane. And the Jordan brigade dont care about talking out of both sides of theor mouth.[/QUOTE]

Except that MJ would've got results, instead of bickering and tearing the team apart.

So what exactly is being argued here? They both were leaders of the team, but did it in different ways. It's weird/stupid seeing all these Bulls fans sling shit at each other.

[QUOTE=Lebron23]Jordan never won a playoffs series without Pippen.[/QUOTE]
He won in '88 with a rookie, super raw, role player Scottie Pippen.

LeBron never won a ring without D. Wade, Chris Bosh, and Mike Miller.

[QUOTE][QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]He won in '88 with a rookie, super raw, role player Scottie Pippen.

LeBron never won a ring without D. Wade, Chris Bosh, and Mike Miller.[/QUOTE]

LeBron made it to the Finals with scrubs, was in the ECF another time and was operating with 60% and the ECSF as a floor in Cleveland since he turned 21. [U][I]No player in history did more, for so long, with less than LeBron in Cleveland from 2006-2010[/I][/U]. :bowdown: A lot of other legends would be struggling to get to 0.500 and then get bounced in the first round with those teams.

[QUOTE]It's weird seeing all these Bulls fans sling shit at each other.[/QUOTE]

A lot of these MJ fans are not Bulls fans these days. They stopped in 98'. TheMan is a legit Bulls fan. Samuri is too--but he hates Pippen, Rose and Noah--basically every Bulls legend outside of MJ--and believes the Bulls were not robbed in 94' by Hollins. If I recall correctly he also has said MJ was indeed suspended for gambling. So an odd Bulls fan, albeit still a fan post-1998.

[QUOTE=Warfan]So what exactly is being argued here? They both were leaders of the team, but did it in different ways. It's weird/stupid seeing all these Bulls fans sling shit at each other.[/QUOTE]
Pippen was second in command. Always was. RR arguing an entire summer long, excessive volume posting rant, smear campaign of the greatest of all-time ... a resentment over Jordan. Just like Pippen himself. Hell, RR probably is Pippen.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
LeBron made it to the Finals with scrubs[/quote]
In a scrub eastern conference, with MAJOR help from Boobie Gibson carrying massive unexpected weight in the conference finals.

In '88, Pippen WAS a scrub. Just started to blossom in '89, wasn't a legit all star caliber player until 1990.

Samuri, who else achieved what LeBron did? "Scrub" East? The Pistons were a very good team from 2004-2008. ECF every year. The second best record in the league in 2008. The East also had Orlando, Boston, in addition to Detroit as contenders during that period.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Pippen was second in command. Always was. RR arguing an entire summer long, excessive volume posting rant, smear campaign of the greatest of all-time ... a resentment over Jordan. Just like Pippen himself. Hell, RR probably is Pippen.[/QUOTE]

I am only refuting claims made by the fleet of Jordan mythologists.

[IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/x1imfc.jpg[/IMG]