Jordan's help. Wow.

[QUOTE=3ball]still waiting.. :pimp:[/QUOTE]


And I'm still waiting on this question that I posted to Laz which he quietly avoided answering:

Question was:

Are you saying that there is a player who played at a higher level than Michael Jordan did in the playoffs over the course of their career?

If so, who?



Btw, 3ball you are killing it with some great points in this thread, good stuff :applause:

Seriously, in Jordan's WHOLE time in Chicago, Rodman was the ONLY very good free agent pickup in 14 years.......That is crazy to think about, and just shows how much MJ was swimming uphill with Krause as GM.............It was done upstream......and back then, that was the total vibe you got from their crap front office......As a fan I remember thinking that they were almost so inept they were conspiring against Jordan to make it as hard as they could for him to win a title.....But his greatness did it, even upstream...

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]And I'm still waiting on this question that I posted to Laz which he quietly avoided answering:

Question was:

Are you saying that there is a player who played at a higher level than Michael Jordan did in the playoffs over the course of their career?

If so, who?



Btw, 3ball you are killing it with some great points in this thread, good stuff :applause:

Seriously, in Jordan's WHOLE time in Chicago, Rodman was the ONLY very good free agent pickup in 14 years.......That is crazy to think about, and just shows how much MJ was swimming uphill with Krause as GM.............It was done upstream......and back then, that was the total vibe you got from their crap front office......As a fan I remember thinking that they were almost so inept they were conspiring against Jordan to make it as hard as they could for him to win a title.....But his greatness did it, even upstream...[/QUOTE]

I could argue Magic, who was one pass away from winning a ring in '84, and an injury in '89 from possibly winning another. The fact that his Lakers didn't lose a beat after KAJ retired (and won a ring DESPITE Kareem's horrific Finals); and dragged a declining and injury-plagued team to a Finals in his last season was also a testament.

There are those who would claim Russell, albeit, not me.

And there is no question in my mind that a prime Chamberlain was the most dominant regular season AND post-season player of all-time. And even John Wooden commented that had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters (and coaches), and it likely would have been Chamberlain holding all those rings. And where a Wilt with anywhere from 7-11 rings in his career rank?

The problem with Jordan's "success" is that it came in the watered down 90's, and with the best supporting cast in the league. Where are his signature wins against great teams?

Having said though, he was easily the game's greatest post-season scorer, and aside from '95, his teams won when they should have. And, of course, he was the driving force behind those titles.

Again, I have MJ as a Top-5 GOAT, and I have no problem with those that have him as the GOAT.


But, of course, this topic is not about how great MJ played in the post-season, but rather about just how much help he had.

When he had poor-to-average rosters, he couldn't win. When he had rosters that could win 55+ games and were serious title contenders without him, yes, he won.

30->22->18 guy is not in any contention for being the best playoffs performer of all time. Maybe best in choking but leflop will pass him soon. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Asukal]30->22->18 guy is not in any contention for being the best playoffs performer of all time. Maybe best in choking but leflop will pass him soon. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

A prime Wilt with a 30-27-5-8 and shooting a full 10% above the post-season league average is undeniably the PEAK GOAT playoff performer...especially when 60% of his playoff games came against the greatest defensive force in NBA history.

.
[B][COLOR="Red"]Jordan's shot better than Curry from inside 20 feet:[/COLOR][/B]



[B][COLOR="White"].....................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]MJ 1997[/url][COLOR="White"]...................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Curry 2015[/Url][/B][COLOR="White"]............ [/COLOR][b][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/]Curry 2016[/url][/B] <--- links to data

[B]5-9 ft[/B].......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 52.9%, 34 fga

[B]10-14 ft[/B]....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 52.0%, 25 fga

[B]15-19 ft[/B]....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 40.8%, 49 fga



[b]Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)[/b]

JORDAN 1997: 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2015: 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2016: 45.3%, 86 fga
LEBRON 2015: 37.0%, 343 fga
LEBRON 2016: 34.3%, 137 fga

[COLOR="red"][I]
DATA UPDATED AS OF 1/6/16[/I][/COLOR]
.

[QUOTE=3ball]I'm still waiting on this one..

I guess I'll never get an answer... which IS the answer.. :rockon:

MJ carried the largest load of all time.[/QUOTE]

Why should anyone bother? Jordan never played GOAT level defense in any of the bulls championship runs. You are asking people to provide something that your own guy never even did.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]Why should anyone bother? Jordan never played GOAT level defense in any of the bulls championship runs. You are asking people to provide something that your own guy never even did.[/QUOTE]
He did on all his championship runs and this is common knowledge.

Everyone knows MJ is a top 3 perimeter defender of all time.

You're just trying to revise history 25 years after the fact.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]He did on all his championship runs and this is common knowledge.[/B]

[B]Everyone knows MJ is a top 3 perimeter defender of all time.[/B]

You're just trying to revise history 25 years after the fact.[/QUOTE]

When does being a top 3 perimeter defender all time become GOAT level defense?

[QUOTE=Smoke117]When does being a top 3 perimeter defender all time become GOAT level defense?[/QUOTE]
Well just use the top 3 level defense then.

Alright let's put this theory of yours to the test, shall we 3ball? Michael Jordan vs Scottie Pippen in the playoffs during all six champion runs:

91 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 101drating, 3.0 DBPM 1.5 DWS
Pippen - [B]100drating[/B], [B]3.7 DBPM[/B] [B]1.7 DWS[/B]

92 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 104 drating 1.4 DBPM 1.7 DWS
Pippen - [B]102 drating 3.9 DBPM 1.8 DWS[/B]

Anyone else starting to notice a trend?...

93 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 105 drating 1.9 DBPM 1.1 DWS
Pippen - 105 drating [B]2.9 DBPM[/B] 1.1 DWS

96 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 101 Drating 0.0 DBPM 1.3 DWS
Pippen - [B]96 drating 4.2 DBPM 1.7 DWS [/B]

97 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 101 drating 1.9 DBPM [B]1.5 DWS[/B]
Pippen - 101 drating [B]2.2 DBPM[/B] 1.4 DWS

98 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 103 drating [COLOR="Red"][B]-0.9 DBPM[/B][/COLOR] 1.2 DWS
Pippen - [B]99 drating 3.1 DBPM 1.5 DWS[/B]

I don't think your theory is holding up very well?

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I could argue Magic, who was one pass away from winning a ring in '84, and an injury in '89 from possibly winning another.[/QUOTE]

If Thomas doesn't get hurt or the BS foul isn't called Laimbeer the Pistons win the '88 Finals. If the Celtics weren't hurt they potentially win the '87 Finals. It works both ways.

[QUOTE]The problem with Jordan's "success" is that it came in the watered down 90's, and with the best supporting cast in the league. Where are his signature wins against great teams?[/QUOTE]

If the 90s are watered down, what are the 60s? Jordan beat plenty of great teams.

[QUOTE]When he had poor-to-average rosters, he couldn't win. When he had rosters that could win 55+ games and were serious title contenders without him, yes, he won.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

The fact that his Lakers didn't lose a beat after KAJ retired

[/quote]
How many championships did the Lakers win WITHOUT Kareem?

Zero.. How many WITH Kareem - 5

[I]So they were a 5-time champion WITH Kareem, and nothing without.. Those are the historical facts (in b4 you try to change them).[/I]


[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

and dragged a declining and injury-plagued team to a Finals in his last season was also a testament.

[/QUOTE]
[SIZE="3"][I]The 1991 Lakers had better supporting talent than the Bulls:[/I][/SIZE]


[COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][B]Playoff PPG[/B]

[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [U]91' Bulls[/U][COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR] [U]91' Lakers[/U]

Jordan[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 31.1[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Magic[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 21.8

Pippen[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 21.6[COLOR="white"]........[/COLOR] Worthy[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 21.1
Grant[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 13.3[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Perkins[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 17.7
Cartwright[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 9.5[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Divac[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 13.3
Paxson[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 8.2[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Scott[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 13.2
Armstrong[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 5.5[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Green[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 6.5



[I][SIZE="3"]Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 and top 5 all-time player, but he got destroyed by Jordan in the Finals heads-up:[/SIZE][/I]


[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]JORDAN[/I]: 31.2 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 55.8 fg[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Indigo"][I]MAGIC[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 18.6 ppg.. 8.0 rpg.. 12.4 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 0.0 bpg.. 43.1 fg[/COLOR]


[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

Where are his signature wins against great teams?

[/QUOTE]
Show me where another player DESTROYED a top 5 all-time player and runner up for MVP (Magic) heads-up in the Finals?.. This is especially remarkable considering MJ was Magic's primary defender, while Magic guarded Paxson.

Accordingly, 1991 was a signature win for Jordan - he had a weaker supporting cast, and destroyed a top 5 player heads-up - the stats between MJ and Magic weren't REMOTELY close.

The Bulls also beat the 1992 Blazers, who were more stacked and made the Finals in 1990 as well... The 1992 Blazers were the most athletic and most stacked team in the league - this is common knowledge.

The Bulls also beat the 1993 Suns, who were the most stacked team in recent MEMORY at that time.... Ditto the 1996 Sonics, who had a legit big 3 of perennial all-stars (Payton/Kemp/Schrempf... along with McMillan & Hersey Hawkins, who destroy Paxson, Armstrong)

Then they beat the championship-caliber Knicks, who SNAP-made the Finals each time MJ retired.

Then there's the Utah Jazz.. In 1998 playoffs, they swept Shaq's 4-all-star Lakers, beat Hakeem's Rockets, and destroyed Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs... This is the most talent any team has ever defeated to make the Finals.. Yet the Bulls beat them TWICE in 1997 and 1998 (in very close series).

These are all signature wins, in part because the opposing team had a better supporting talent after their #1 option... The reality is that the mere PRESENCE of Jordan makes people think the Bulls were stacked.


[quote=LAZERUSS]

When he had rosters were serious title contenders without him, yes, he won.

[/QUOTE]
The Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc walk-off miracle).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.
.

[QUOTE=sundizz]1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?[/QUOTE]

1. You're combining teams. These guys didn't all play together.

2. Horace Grant was good on a good day. Average overall.

3. BJ Armstrong was good on a good day. Average overall.

4. Charles Oakley was good on a good day. Thug overall.

5. Rodman was past his prime by the time he joined Chicago.



.

[QUOTE=3ball]How many championships did the Lakers win WITHOUT Kareem?

Zero.. How many WITH Kareem - 5

[I]So they were a 5-time champion WITH Kareem, and nothing without.. Those are the historical facts (in b4 you try to change them).[/I]



[SIZE="3"][I]The 1991 Lakers had better supporting talent than the Bulls:[/I][/SIZE]


[COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][B]Playoff PPG[/B]

[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [U]91' Bulls[/U][COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR] [U]91' Lakers[/U]

Jordan[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 31.1[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Magic[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 21.8

Pippen[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 21.6[COLOR="white"]........[/COLOR] Worthy[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 21.1
Grant[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 13.3[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Perkins[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 17.7
Cartwright[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 9.5[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Divac[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 13.3
Paxson[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 8.2[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Scott[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 13.2
Armstrong[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 5.5[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Green[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 6.5



[I][SIZE="3"]Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 and top 5 all-time player, but he got destroyed by Jordan in the Finals heads-up:[/SIZE][/I]


[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]JORDAN[/I]: 31.2 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 55.8 fg[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Indigo"][I]MAGIC[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 18.6 ppg.. 8.0 rpg.. 12.4 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 0.0 bpg.. 43.1 fg[/COLOR]



Show me where another player DESTROYED a top 5 all-time player and runner up for MVP (Magic) heads-up in the Finals?.. This is especially remarkable considering MJ was Magic's primary defender, while Magic guarded Paxson.

Accordingly, 1991 was a signature win for Jordan - he had a weaker supporting cast, and destroyed a top 5 player heads-up - the stats between MJ and Magic weren't REMOTELY close.

The Bulls also beat the 1992 Blazers, who were far more stacked and made the Finals in 1990 as well... The 1992 Blazers were the most athletic and most stacked team in the league - this is common knowledge.

The Bulls also beat the 1993 Suns, who were way more stacked and the most stacked team in recent MEMORY at that time.... Ditto the 1996 Sonics, who had a legit big 3 of perennial all-stars (Payton/Kemp/Schrempf... along with McMillan & Hersey Hawkins, who destroy Paxson, Armstrong)

Then they beat the championship-caliber Knicks, who SNAP-made the Finals each time MJ retired.

Then there's the Utah Jazz.. In 1998, they swept Shaq's 4-all-star Lakers, beat Hakeem's Rockets, and destroyed Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs... This is the most talent any team has ever defeated to make the Finals.. Yet the Bulls beat them TWICE in 1997 and 1998 (in very close series).

All of these are signature wins, in part because the opposing team had a better supporting talent after their #1 option... The reality is that the mere PRESENCE of Jordan makes people think the Bulls were stacked.



The Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc walk-off miracle).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.[/QUOTE]

A PRIME MAGIC DESTROYED MJ in their '87 H2H's. Just CRUSHED him. And that was an MJ in his peak scoring season. Just ANNIHILATED the worthless shot-jacking MJ.

As for Kareem.

MAGIC led them to a title in his ROOKIE SEASON, and with KAJ watching the title-clinching game at home from his couch.

MAGIC led them to their '82 title, and with McAdoo contributing as much in the Finals as KAJ did, but in far less minutes.

MAGIC was b y FAR the Lakers BEST PLAYER in their '87 title run, and in fact, KAJ was a third wheel.

MAGIC led them to a title in '88, and with KAJ and absolute WORTHLESS POS in the post-season, even worse in the Finals, and a complete joke in game seven. BTW, MAGIC deserved the FMVP, not Worthy. #4 for Magic.

And you comparing a broken down Lker team in '91, with Worthy crippled and a shell of what he had been (and basically done...his last semi-decent season_), and without Kareem mind you...and with a declining Magic...against a peak Jordan, with FAR greater surrounding personnel in Piipen and Grant (BOTH of whom WIPED the floor with the Lakers in the Finals)...with a PRIME Magic who DOMINATED in the ENTIRE DECADE of the 80's, and was a mere pass away from #6, an injury away from #7, a Worthy injury away from #8 in '83, and a rusty Magic injury away from '81 from #9.

NINE Finals in 12 seasons, and an eyelash away from NINE rings. Never came close to a losing season in his 12 seasons, and had a higher winning percentage without Kareem, than with him. BTW, Kareem's winning percentage without magic was WAY below Magic's CAREER W-L %. Led Kareem-LESS teams to records of 62-17 and 57-22. Took a Kareem-LESS player past the heavily-favored Blazers in '91, and to his NINTH Finals.

But thanks for playing.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]

Alright let's put this theory of yours to the test, shall we 3ball? Michael Jordan vs Scottie Pippen [B][COLOR="Red"]DPBM and DWS[/COLOR][/B] in the playoffs during all six champion runs:

[/quote]

[B]My theory is that MJ played goat defense, which your stats don't refute.. But let me demonstrate how dumb you are for using DPBM and DWS:[/B]


[COLOR="Green"][I]Bird[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Career DPBM[/I]: 2.5[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]Pippen Career DPBM[/I]: 2.4[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"][I]Bird[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Career DRtg[/I]: 101[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]Pippen Career DRtg[/I]: 102[/COLOR]


I'm too lazy to do the math right now, but Bird had higher DWS too.. So WHY does Bird have higher defensive stats than Pippen???... Because these stats are based on individual defensive rating (DRtg), which is based on TEAM performance.. This is from basketball-reference:


[INDENT]"[I]Out of necessity (due to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), [COLOR="Navy"]individual Defensive Ratings are [B]heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency[/B]. They assume that all teammates are equally good at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses[/COLOR], as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.[/I]"[/INDENT]


I've had to post the above definition many times to educate posters about DRtg, and subsequently DPBM and DWS... Now you know.. These stats results in hundreds if not thousands of similarly erroneous conclusions like Bird > Pippen defensively.
.