Kidd no contest
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Kidd no contest
[QUOTE=90sgoat]I take Kidd>Payton>Paul.
Jason Kidd is a player you can't judge on boxscores. If they counted hockey assists Kidd would be the all time leader. I've never seen a player like Kidd with such a chess like ability to create offense just by passing, moving, passing, moving. Kidd was like a maestro thinking 3 moves ahead, being just as valuable off ball as on ball.
The only other player I've seen with that innate understanding of the game was Magic. And Kidd in the open floor was all time best level, almost at Magic level there too. Add to that he was a tripple double machine with very good D. He is underrated because you need to see how he dominated games, not just watch highlights or boxscores. Kidd had a massive part in that Mavs championship but doesn't get the credit, next year he is gone, Mavs don't do anything since that. He took the Knicks and made them into a playoff team, again did not get praise (Melo took it), but then he is gone and Knicks suck again, that's the story of Jason Kidd, making teams much better by doing stuff that doesn't show up fully in boxscores.
Payton is second because he is an all time great defender. The Sonics 96 was suffocating, I've never seen anything like it since and it was better than Knicks that I watched in the 90s too. Payton was the man behind it all, not your typical guard impact on defense, he could shut down point guards and shooting guards completely, even almost shutting down the GOAT.
Paul has the best overall talent of the 3. No weaknesses, the best scorer of the 3, but Paul imo lacks the kind of all time skill in one area that Payton (defense) and Kidd (running an offense) have. He is elite in all areas almost, but he does not have all time great ability in any particular area. That's why I think he really is mostly suited to be 1b and not 1a. He is Stockton to a Malone, but even then I still would pick Stockton over Paul.[/QUOTE]This isn't a bad post but how is Kidd an all time great in running an offense but Paul isn't? It's the other way around if anything.
Paul might have the best combination of ballhandling and passing/court vision out of any player. And unlike Kidd who was a bad scorer and shooter, he's also a scoring threat that can shoot well from anywhere on the court on top of that. He plays faaar more efficient basketball than Kidd.
Pretty much all of the offenses Kidd ran in his prime were either below average or terrible.
On the other hand, Paul has ran two #1 offenses and on average ran better offenses over his career than Kidd even if you go back to his Hornets days.
If I wanted an efficient offense, I'd easily choose Paul and Payton over Kidd.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I think it's okay to call that end of prime Shaq...he obviously wasn't peak, but he was still an elite top 5 player in the league imo.[/QUOTE]
Dirk, Duncan, and KG imo were clearly better imo.
Then you have Amare, Tmac, Lebron, and if we're just stat following Mario was really great that year. And we could add in the guy who won the MVP in Nash.
I'd agree shaq was still great that year but other than a high PER, he didn't finish well in VORP or PER. If we go by RAMP he's 3rd but then we have to look at Manu as a contender that year.
I agree elite by the league's standards that year, but not by Shaq's standards and at least imo that wasn't a great year at the top.
[QUOTE=dhsilv]Dirk, Duncan, and KG imo were clearly better imo.
Then you have Amare, Tmac, Lebron, and if we're just stat following Mario was really great that year. And we could add in the guy who won the MVP in Nash.
I'd agree shaq was still great that year but other than a high PER, he didn't finish well in VORP or PER. If we go by RAMP he's 3rd but then we have to look at Manu as a contender that year.
I agree elite by the league's standards that year, but not by Shaq's standards and at least imo that wasn't a great year at the top.[/QUOTE]
There are always going to be guys battling for a top 5 spot...and one can argue it.
Shaq was in that range of player though...still one of the best players in the league. I think that is what people mean...nobody actually is arguing, I'd guess, that 04/05 Shaq were as good as 00 Shaq or something.
[QUOTE=Young X]This isn't a bad post but how is Kidd an all time great in running an offense but Paul isn't? It's the other way around if anything.
Paul might have the best combination of ballhandling and passing/court vision out of any player. And unlike Kidd who was a bad scorer and shooter, he's also a scoring threat that can shoot well from anywhere on the court on top of that. He plays faaar more efficient basketball than Kidd.
Pretty much all of the offenses Kidd ran in his prime were either below average or terrible.
On the other hand, Paul has ran two #1 offenses and on average ran better offenses over his career than Kidd even if you go back to his Hornets days.
If I wanted an efficient offense, I'd easily choose Paul and Payton over Kidd.[/QUOTE]
Your point guard doesn't have to be a scorer to be effective. If Kidd had even Magic's jumpshot he'd be counted as the greatest point guard ever.
Paul is not close to the mastery of Kidd in setting up teammates, there is no one except Magic to match that, yes I count him as better than Stockton too.
You're probably confusing scoring ability with offensive ability, have you actually watched Kidd in his prime full games? Kidd is on another planet in getting teammates involved and finding their spots. It was a thing of beauty and honestly something only Magic did as good.
Kerry Kittles, Richard Jefferson and Kenyon Martin, what did they do without Kidd? Nothing. Paul in Hornets played with David West who is far superior to any of those 3. Kenyon Martin had the offensive arsenal of Deandre Jordan.
[QUOTE=90sgoat]Your point guard doesn't have to be a scorer to be effective. If Kidd had even Magic's jumpshot he'd be counted as the greatest point guard ever.
Paul is not close to the mastery of Kidd in setting up teammates, there is no one except Magic to match that, yes I count him as better than Stockton too.
You're probably confusing scoring ability with offensive ability, have you actually watched Kidd in his prime full games? Kidd is on another planet in getting teammates involved and finding their spots. It was a thing of beauty and honestly something only Magic did as good.
Kerry Kittles, Richard Jefferson and Kenyon Martin, what did they do without Kidd? Nothing. Paul in Hornets played with David West who is far superior to any of those 3. Kenyon Martin had the offensive arsenal of Deandre Jordan.[/QUOTE]
paul is so much better at shooting off the dribble and scoring with live dribble, which allows his teams ortg to always be so high.. but I agree, Kidd got guys going. An alley oop is just 2 points but it gets the big man pumped.. and ready for defense on the other end. Just hitting guys in their spots to give them confidence and make them play harder.. its hard to quantify.
[QUOTE=tpols]paul is so much better at shooting off the dribble and scoring with live dribble, which allows his teams ortg to always be so high.. but I agree, Kidd got guys going. An alley oop is just 2 points but it gets the big man pumped.. and ready for defense on the other end. Just hitting guys in their spots to give them confidence and make them play harder.. its hard to quantify.[/QUOTE]
I should say that its hard to qualify who is actually the better player, because none of them have multiple rings or MVPs. Kidd is the only one with a ring and he has the most finals (3 to 1 and 0) which really should count for something. Besides that it's about which game you like to watch more and Kidd is on top for me, because all his teams were exciting to watch.
Again, I simply can't see how you can put Paul over either of the others when you factor in all skills and see Paul's lack of playoff success. Losing to the Rockets last year was a massive scratch on his resume. They beat the Spurs and then lose to Harden and Dwight, that's just not elite, whether it's mental or something else.
As for Kidd even as an old man he made Melo a scoring leader and in the running for MVP, which again was ignored but Melo's play since Kidd left shows the impact clearly. Kidd really does make his teammates play to their best.
You can't just ignore the huge gap in scoring ability because they're PG's. Scoring is still the most important part of the game no matter what position at the end of the day.
If we're comparing 2 players offensively. The bottom line is who helps their team score more points. Who is better at turning possessions into points.
Paul is definitely better than Kidd at this. If you gave them the same teammates under the same circumstances, Paul's team would easily be more efficient.
And if you really think Paul isn't close to Kidd at setting up teammates then I don't know what to say. You either don't watch him play or are extremely biased. He's one of the best distributors/passers/playmakers to ever play (as is Kidd). There's no one he's "not close to" in this area.
For someone so good at setting up his teammates, his assist averages are fairly low.
He also got a ring at 37... and you know if Paul doesn't get one until 32 or later that WILL be held against him as everyone will say he was "carried" etc etc.
Kidd was a taller Rajon Rondo, only scored when forced into it, 40% career fg and 38% playoff fg tell you why.
Yes he was a good rebounder and assist turret.. but he had to be coz he didn't/wouldn't score.
Agree that he was a better defender though.
imo - Paul-Kidd-Payton
Payton doesn't really belong in the conversation though, great defender, but his story seems to grow with every year he's retired. In his prime he was an erratic malcontent that thought his offense was a lot better than it was. Amazing defender though.
Scoring is not the most important thing necessarily. It can be, but every facet of the game is important. I do agree that given equal offensive talent Paul will lead a better regular season offense than kidd. But his team will still be paper soft come playoff time due to no leadership being provided in every other area of basketball.. kidd provided A+ leadership in defense rebounding and passing that made his teams much tougher and better than they should've been. Paul's game is sexier individually, but it doesn't have as much substance
Kidd's game didn't seem to have much "substance" either when he didn't play in the eastern conference...
Kidd and CP3 are interchangeable IMO. Payton was no slouch but I also don't think he had the impact the other two did. Close enough though.
[QUOTE=Young X]Kidd's game didn't seem to have much "substance" either when he didn't play in the eastern conference...[/QUOTE]
He was the starting pointguard for a western conference team who won their first and ONLY title in their franchises history. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Young X]You can't just ignore the huge gap in scoring ability because they're PG's. Scoring is still the most important part of the game no matter what position at the end of the day.
If we're comparing 2 players offensively. The bottom line is who helps their team score more points. Who is better at turning possessions into points.
Paul is definitely better than Kidd at this. If you gave them the same teammates under the same circumstances, Paul's team would easily be more efficient.
And if you really think Paul isn't close to Kidd at setting up teammates then I don't know what to say. You either don't watch him play or are extremely biased. He's one of the best distributors/passers/playmakers to ever play (as is Kidd). There's no one he's "not close to" in this area.[/QUOTE]
I don't disrespect Paul, but here's the thing, it's about how many points your team score compared to how many they allow. Not how many points your point guard scores. It doesn't matter who scores as long as the points are scored.
Spurs don't even have a 20 point scorer, they have a couple of guys scoring 17.
Stackhouse, Gilbert Arenas, Melo, they score and their teams are crap.
And if Paul was really a top 3 point guard of all time then he would have sniffed a finals, all the other great point guards did:
Magic
Kidd
Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Oscar Robertson
Steve Nash had godly stats that didn't translate and he was twice MVP, no one in their mind picks Nash over any of the above.
He has the team good enough, they beat the former champs Spurs for gods sake. Then they go and meltdown and lose to James Harden.
There's something missing with Paul and you won't like it if I tell you what I think it is, but I will say it anyway, Paul is too focused on pick and roll game and taking the big shots. He dribbles in the same spot for too long and does too much iso. He flops too much, doesn't have the warrior's heart like Isiah and Stockton.
Losing to Rockets last year can't be excused it was simply bad and it falls on Paul who played great against Spurs.
He is still an all time great in terms of skill but he can't translate it to a fully effective playstyle.
Kidd has 107 tripple doubles, that's 3rd all time and that's more than TWICE as many Lebron James. Think about that. Kidd is 6'5'' and 205lbs. That's only behind Magic and Oscar Robertson ALL TIME.
People gush over the trip dub impact of Lebron, but Kidd has TWICE as many as Lebron.
He averages almost 9apg and 2spg over an 18 year career.
Jason Kidd won that Mavs championship:
wagesofwins.com/2011/05/26/jason-kidd-is-an-all-time-great-point-guard/
[QUOTE]There
[QUOTE=Young X]Kidd's game didn't seem to have much "substance" either when he didn't play in the eastern conference...[/QUOTE]
it did though.. he revitalized Tyson chandlers career, pretty much made him a max level player out of nowhere. Kidd is the most under appreciated part of the 2011 Mavs title team. It was his defense along with Marions that locked down all the "stars" they faced. It was him that pushed the pace and always dictated proper flow.
90% of kidd's prime was spent in the east.. so be it, he did the absolute best with what he was given. When given a chance in the west, he of course, also produced.
[QUOTE=tpols]it did though.. he revitalized Tyson chandlers career, pretty much made him a max level player out of nowhere. Kidd is the most under appreciated part of the 2011 Mavs title team. It was his defense along with Marions that locked down all the "stars" they faced. It was him that pushed the pace and always dictated proper flow.
90% of kidd's prime was spent in the east.. so be it, he did the absolute best with what he was given. When given a chance in the west, he of course, also produced.[/QUOTE]
Look above, Kidd had the most winshares on that team.