Anyone believe Covid is very serious but at same time the vaccine ain't doing shit?

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14433398]I don't know me and tontoz just had a long debate/discussion about it and we don't agree but he was cool for the most part. I don't think he's much different from us. He has his media outlets and studies he likes that supports his views and we have ours. Sure they're the majority and they're shaming and name calling and telling untruths but let's be honest so are the minority that we align more with. I don't blame people like tontoz for feeling as strongly as they do because the media has been brainwashing and fear mongering people since day 1. Why wouldn't people believe the cdc, government and media who they believe is trustworthy and honest. It's natural for people to want to believe their government, healthcare system and media is good by nature and that they are honest and have the best intentions for the everyday citizens well being. This is why they're so easily mislead. It comes from qn honest place. Calling them brainwashed tools is no more productive than them calling us antivaxed conspiracy nuts. I think we both are operating from pure good intentions It's just that our belief that our side is right lets us get emotional qnd then frustrated and then unsympathetic to where the other side is coming from. Again i blame the media, cdc and government for this. They've intentionally created a divide to try to scare and shame people into getting the vaccine and it's worked.[/QUOTE]

That reply was mainly for Fultz, but thanks for the response.

The other replies are more in tune with the general discussion regarding the data and the costs and benefits of forced masking, forced lockdowns, forced vaccinations, forced travel bans, and supposed "overwhelmed" hospitals.

For example, this post:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497308-Anyone-believe-Covid-is-very-serious-but-at-same-time-the-vaccine-ain-t-doing-shit&p=14433362&viewfull=1#post14433362[/url]

[QUOTE=SATAN;14433403]You're here to argue. Just admit it. :lol[/QUOTE]

Changing plans from repeatedly dumping stuff off facebook to asking people to work for him instead :oldlol:

[QUOTE=tontoz;14433390]Sorry but this doesn't pass the sniff test. The US govt has a lot of leverage when negotiating prices with the drug companies due to their buying power.

Even if that $1.20 production cost number was true, which i doubt, production is only one of the costs of bringing a vaccine to market. R&D, testing, storage, distribution... probably forgetting some things. Over time the cost will come down but that is not a believable number.

Do you really think our govt is so weak that they are willing to give the drug companies roughly an 85% profit margin in an emergency situation, especially when there has been so much talk about cutting drug prices in recent years?

I don't buy it.[/QUOTE]

The government has proven themselves to be highly incompetent on a range of issues time and time again throughout history so nothing would surprise me. I mean there's tons of articles on this though and almost show a ridiculous profit margin.

You may not buy it but they certainly are

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14433413]The government has proven themselves to be highly incompetent on a range of issues time and time again throughout history so nothing would surprise me. I mean there's tons of articles on this though and almost show a ridiculous profit margin.

You may not buy it but they certainly are[/QUOTE]

Just remember that tontoz is a supporter of forced masking, forced lockdowns, forced vaccinations, etc. These are the major issues (IMO, and I think you'd agree). Those are the things he needs to make his case on. Remember that.

What the gov't should do with leftover vaccine, the precise difference between natural immunity & immunity through vaccination, what the governor of WV said on YouTube, etc, are comparatively minor issues. I notice you're smart enough to recognize supposed "private" drug companies make their money BECAUSE of gov't, and there's a lot of corruption in that industry, but again, these issues are separate from the major issues I listed above.

[QUOTE=Cleverness;14433404]That reply was mainly for Fultz, but thanks for the response.

The other replies are more in tune with the general discussion regarding the data and the costs and benefits of forced masking, forced lockdowns, forced vaccinations, forced travel bans, and supposed "overwhelmed" hospitals.

For example, this post:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497308-Anyone-believe-Covid-is-very-serious-but-at-same-time-the-vaccine-ain-t-doing-shit&p=14433362&viewfull=1#post14433362[/url][/QUOTE]

Yeah i'm not with forced anything. I think if u wanna mask, vaccinate or whatever to protect yourself you should go for it just don't project your fears on me. That said the govt, cdc and media are doing their best to get people to do just that so i try to be understanding and have rational debates with that in mind. It's tough though for both sides. It's causing issues with friends and family that I've never had any issues with before. They probably feel the same and it just makes both sides more frustrated and angry at each other. The shit sucks man.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14433419]Yeah i'm not with forced anything. I think if u wanna mask, vaccinate or whatever to protect yourself you should go for it just don't project your fears on me. That said the govt, cdc and media are doing their best to get people to do just that so i try to be understanding and have rational debates with that in mind. It's tough though for both sides. It's causing issues with friends and family that I've never had any issues with before. They probably feel the same and it just makes both sides more frustrated and angry at each other. The shit sucks man.[/QUOTE]

Right.

And these guys want to force hundreds of millions of people to do those things. Thus, the burden of proof is on them to make their case for locking people up and forcing medical intrusions into their bodies. When people advocate for that sort of thing, they better have a rock-solid case which can withstand some of the toughest scrutiny. What I've done is ask basic followup questions to those people and they all folded like a house of cards.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14433379]I see Cleverness popping in from time to time. If anyone is wondering why i don't respond to him i put him on the ignore list awhile back. He is literally the only person i ever put on ignore that i never even argued with. :oldlol:

The reasons should be obvious.[/QUOTE]
Never knew he'd be obsessed with covid in such great heights. :roll:

[QUOTE=Cleverness;14433434]Right.

And these guys want to force hundreds of millions of people to do those things. Thus, the burden of proof is on them to make their case for locking people up and forcing medical intrusions into their bodies. When people advocate for that sort of thing, they better have a rock-solid case which can withstand some of the toughest scrutiny. What I've done is ask basic followup questions to those people and they all folded like a house of cards.[/QUOTE]

Yeah i think the burden of proof thing is tricky because there's data, experts and articles out there that support their reasons why everyone one should mask, vaccine or whatever. Sure these experts, data and articles may be untruthful or just plain wrong but they don't know that. They believe it's forthright. They believe they have the burden of truth just like we can sight contradictory articles, data and experts that claim otherwise. That's the problem with this shit. There's so much misinformation and conflicting data it's hard to tell what to believe. I was raised to question authority and think for yourself so i just look at data and things being said and apply common sense and or science to it and often the answer is there. Certain basic principles like natural antibodies are as good or more effective than the vaccine. This has always been common knowledge until covid where the media and cdc managed to scare people into abandoning science and common sense and believe antibodies didn't matter with covid.

The crazy shit is i think if all these entities were honest and understanding and didn't tell lies or unknown truths from jump and just allowed for honest open debate and discussion way more people would of taken the vaccine. Or maybe if they allowed open debate and discussion it would be clear that alot of what they're saying is b.s. i really don't know what to believe anymore.

Just took another look at the AstraZeneca vaccine. Apparently the FDA won't even allow it to be used here in the US even though the government bought millions of doses.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14433570]Just took another look at the AstraZeneca vaccine. Apparently the FDA won't even allow it to be used here in the US even though the government bought millions of doses.[/QUOTE]

What a waste. This is part of the reason for my hesitancy with the vaccine. Who knows if the other vaccines have some kind of long term effects that don't show up until a year or 2 after. This shit is still in its infancy and knowledge of covid and vaccines are constantly changing.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14433588]What a waste. This is part of the reason for my hesitancy with the vaccine. Who knows if the other vaccines have some kind of long term effects that don't show up until a year or 2 after. This shit is still in its infancy and knowledge of covid and vaccines are constantly changing.[/QUOTE]


From what i have read vaccines never have long term effects. The only side effects are short term. Problem is that they can be severe in the short term.

The link from Manny, if i remember right, mentioned 72 dead attributed to the AstraZeneca vaccine.

Another story i looked at said the threat of death from the vaccine is 1 in a million. Not much of an endorsement imo. The chance of a case of TTS, which sometimes ends in death, is 30 in a million. The tone of the article is of trying to minimize the risk. To me that much risk just isn't acceptable given that through history vaccines have been pretty safe and there are much safer options available now

[QUOTE]

What is TTS?
Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) is a rare condition reported in some people who have received adenoviral vector COVID-19 vaccines [such as the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine]. The syndrome is characterised by blood clot formation (thrombosis) combined with low platelet levels (thrombocytopenia).

TTS is different to other more commonly diagnosed blood clotting conditions as it is triggered by an immune response that causes the combination of both clots and low platelets.

[/QUOTE]

[url]https://www.science.org.au/curious/people-medicine/astrazeneca-vaccine-risk-death-1-million-what-does-mean[/url]

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14433588]What a waste. This is part of the reason for my hesitancy with the vaccine. Who knows if the other vaccines have some kind of long term effects that don't show up until a year or 2 after. This shit is still in its infancy and knowledge of covid and vaccines are constantly changing.[/QUOTE]

Studies to evaluate myocarditis and pericarditis following administration of the Pfizer shot are not set to be complete until 2022-2026. Pages 6-8: [url]https://www.fda.gov/media/151710/download[/url]

This is from Manny's link in the other thread about the AstraZeneca vaccine:



[QUOTE]
Tests were carried out and blood clots were found in her brain, prompting her to be moved to the neurology specialist unit at Newcastle's Royal Victoria Infirmary (RVI).

The clots are considered extremely rare - there have been [B]417 reported cases and 72 deaths - after 24.8 million first doses and 23.9 million second doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine in the UK.
[/B]
Dr Christopher Johnson, a consultant in anaesthetics and intensive care at the RVI, said Ms Shaw had been conscious for several days and had been treated for the clots with drugs which seemed to be successful.


[/QUOTE]

[url]https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796[/url]


So 72 deaths for 24 million people who got both doses, 3 deaths per million people fully vaccinated. Ugh

[QUOTE=tontoz;14433601]From what i have read vaccines never have long term effects. The only side effects are short term. Problem is that they can be severe in the short term.

The link from Manny, if i remember right, mentioned 72 dead attributed to the AstraZeneca vaccine.

Another story i looked at said the threat of death from the vaccine is 1 in a million. Not much of an endorsement imo. The chance of a case of TTS, which sometimes ends in death, is 30 in a million. The tone of the article is of trying to minimize the risk. To me that much risk just isn't acceptable given that through history vaccines have been pretty safe and there are much safer options available now



[url]https://www.science.org.au/curious/people-medicine/astrazeneca-vaccine-risk-death-1-million-what-does-mean[/url][/QUOTE]

Yeah i here u but this is the firsr mrna vaccine from what i understand. It's a bit different from most vaccines. Generally your right though vaccines don't usually cause long term effects.

13-Year-Old Dies in Sleep After Receiving Pfizer COVID Vaccine; CDC Investigating

[url]https://www.newsweek.com/13-year-old-dies-sleep-after-receiving-pfizer-covid-vaccine-cdc-investigating-1606529[/url]