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[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14971890]Since when did RRR3 become a Jokic hater? :lol[/QUOTE]
Last year rr3 discovered that Jokic is a “fascist” and the poor guy had no choice after that. He is morally obligated to fight fascism. Tearing down “Fatkic” every chance he gets is rr3’s version of punching a nazi. The basketball arguments don’t really matter; the entire thing is psychological for him like 3ball vs lebron.
[QUOTE=sd3035;14972042]At what point does he start entering the GOAT discussions?[/QUOTE]
No reason why we can't start talking about his place in history now and over the next 3-4 years. He's been in the league 10 years, has 3 MVPs, 1 ring/FMVP, 6 time All-NBA. There are guys we consider top 20 right now who neither peaked as high nor have the same level of accolades people deem important for these discussions.
[QUOTE=sd3035;14972042]At what point does he start entering the GOAT discussions?[/QUOTE]
Never....
If anything the discussion is how much BS the MVP's become when a 1 time champ who only made the finals once is being put in GOAT conversation.
Jerry made the finals 7 times in his first 10 seasons never got an MVP and he was by far the best two way player in the game.
Jokic will never crack my top four (Wilt, KAJ, Russell, Mikan)
[QUOTE=John8204;14972136]Never....
If anything the discussion is how much BS the MVP's become when a 1 time champ who only made the finals once is being put in GOAT conversation.
Jerry made the finals 7 times in his first 10 seasons never got an MVP and he was by far the best two way player in the game.
Jokic will never crack my top four (Wilt, KAJ, Russell, Mikan)[/QUOTE]
You have the worst top 4 I've ever seen.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14971550]Almost everyone in mainstream media when I made this thread in December 2022. Nick Wright was also a MASSIVE Jokic hater. Same with Brian Windhorst.
Im not going to dig up all the stuff I was seeing from 2021-2022, but so many people were skeptical about Jokic in the media (unfairly), and so many people tried to hang the "no rings" argument on Jokic's head.
EVERYTHING changed after Embiid won his pity-MVP in 2023 and when Jokic won his first ring shortly after. Jokic literally made the haters been the knee the same way Lebron has done.[/QUOTE]
Windhorst legitimately gave Jokic first place votes for MVP. I don't think you can call him a hater even if he was critical of Jokic after a bad game as an unbiased sports reporter does from time time.
I think Stephen A, Perk and Wright are hardly "Almost everyone in mainstream media ". I have no problem with your OP premise in that Joker could be considered underrated in 2022 but to say he was widely hated in the media is horse shit.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14972137]You have the worst top 4 I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about centers...my top four is MJ, Lebron, Wilt, Larry
KAJ, Magic, Bill, Mikan, Kobe, Oscar, Jerry, Duncan, Moses, Curry, Hakeem, Stockton, Dr. J, Dirk, Hondo, Pettit
PG - Magic, Oscar, Curry, Stockton (Frazier, CPIII, Kidd, Thomas, Archibald, Payton)
SG - MJ, Kobe, West (Gervin, Iverson, Wade, Maravich, Miller, Harden, Doncic)
SF - Bird, Dr. J, Hondo (Baylor, Barry, Durant. Kwahi, Arizin, Pierce, Pippen)
PF - Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, Pettit (Garnett, Barkley, Giannis, Malone, Mchale, Hayes)
C - Wilt, KAJ, Bill, Mikan, Moses, Hakeem, (Shaq, Jokic, Robinson, Thurmond)
[QUOTE=John8204;14972170]I'm talking about centers...my top four is MJ, Lebron, Wilt, Larry
KAJ, Magic, Bill, Mikan, Kobe, Oscar, Jerry, Duncan, Moses, Curry, Hakeem, Stockton, Dr. J, Dirk, Hondo, Pettit
PG - Magic, Oscar, Curry, Stockton (Frazier, CPIII, Kidd, Thomas, Archibald, Payton)
SG - MJ, Kobe, West (Gervin, Iverson, Wade, Maravich, Miller, Harden, Doncic)
SF - Bird, Dr. J, Hondo (Baylor, Barry, Durant. Kwahi, Arizin, Pierce, Pippen)
PF - Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, Pettit (Garnett, Barkley, Giannis, Malone, Mchale, Hayes)
C - Wilt, KAJ, Bill, Mikan, Moses, Hakeem, (Shaq, Jokic, Robinson, Thurmond)[/QUOTE]
Sorry but it's time to have two sets of top 10 GOATs. Pre-1980 (no 3-point line, mostly pre-ABA/NBA merger/expansion) and post-1980 (3-point line/modern evolution/global game).
It's literally impossible to come up with any standard criteria that can compare what was happening in the 50s/60s/70s to what happened in the last 30 years.
Feel free to do some exciting rankings that include Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Jerry, Elgin, Dr. J etc., but they are stuck in the "pre-modern" NBA.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14972330]Sorry but it's time to have two sets of top 10 GOATs. Pre-1980 (no 3-point line, mostly pre-ABA/NBA merger/expansion) and post-1980 (3-point line/modern evolution/global game).
It's literally impossible to come up with any standard criteria that can compare what was happening in the 50s/60s/70s to what happened in the last 30 years.
Feel free to do some exciting rankings that include Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Jerry, Elgin, Dr. J etc., but they are stuck in the "pre-modern" NBA.[/QUOTE]
I think dr j sneaks in modern, but I don’t have him ranked haha.
-Smak
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14972330]Sorry but it's time to have two sets of top 10 GOATs. Pre-1980 (no 3-point line, mostly pre-ABA/NBA merger/expansion) and post-1980 (3-point line/modern evolution/global game).
[B]It's literally impossible to come up [/B]with any standard criteria that can compare what was happening in the 50s/60s/70s to what happened in the last 30 years.
Feel free to do some exciting rankings that include Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Jerry, Elgin, Dr. J etc., but they are stuck in the "pre-modern" NBA.[/QUOTE]
I think it's pretty easy...divide the generations and positions
50-70 Wilt, Bill, Mikan, Oscar, West, Pettit. Havicek, Elgin, Arizin, Schayes
70-90 Bird, KAJ, Magic, Moses, Dr. J, Frazier. Barry, Gervin, Archibald, Thurmond
90-10 MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Stockton, Dirk, KG, Shaq, Barkley Iverson
10-25 Lebron, Curry, CPIII, Giannis, Durant, Jokic, Kwahi, Wade, Doncic, Carmello
The game changes every ten years...Jordan only had to play against US players. Lebron was able to move whenever his contract ran out. Kareem only had to play against half the best players in the world because of the ABA. The early generation guys had to be more well rounded because they had less than 100 jobs. The only constant in basketball is change you might not care about what came before you started watching but it still exists and has value.
[QUOTE=John8204;14972534]I think it's pretty easy...divide the generations and positions
50-70 Wilt, Bill, Mikan, Oscar, West, Pettit. Havicek, Elgin, Arizin, Schayes
70-90 Bird, KAJ, Magic, Moses, Dr. J, Frazier. Barry, Gervin, Archibald, Thurmond
90-10 MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Stockton, Dirk, KG, Shaq, Barkley Iverson
10-25 Lebron, Curry, CPIII, Giannis, Durant, Jokic, Kwahi, Wade, Doncic, Carmello
The game changes every ten years...Jordan only had to play against US players. Lebron was able to move whenever his contract ran out. Kareem only had to play against half the best players in the world because of the ABA. The early generation guys had to be more well rounded because they had less than 100 jobs. The only constant in basketball is change you might not care about what came before you started watching but it still exists and has value.[/QUOTE]
nah this new shit different. Some people have had success like old Bran and Curry, but there isn't really a superstar. There is a flawed guy like Giannis, but Jokic is on his own level. He isn't at all competing against anyone on that list except Giannis and Don. Even tho guys are still in the NBA, they aren't still GOAT level in any way. Some of them never were.
-Smak
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14971924]Other posters have acknowledged the era difference too. In fact when I made this three over 3 years ago, I made multiple posts noting the era differences that had been forming since 2020, but really since 2017 too. 2017-2019 was sort of a transition phase, 2020 and beyond has been a true explosion of offensive efficiency.[/QUOTE]
Yea but RRR3 doesn't. It's just interesting that he now is, but in a way to support his argument. I've tried to adjust for era in previous discussions with him and he just dismisses it. But for some reason, now it sticks.
[QUOTE=John8204;14972534]I think it's pretty easy...divide the generations and positions
50-70 Wilt, Bill, Mikan, Oscar, West, Pettit. Havicek, Elgin, Arizin, Schayes
70-90 Bird, KAJ, Magic, Moses, Dr. J, Frazier. Barry, Gervin, Archibald, Thurmond
90-10 MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Stockton, Dirk, KG, Shaq, Barkley Iverson
10-25 Lebron, Curry, CPIII, Giannis, Durant, Jokic, Kwahi, Wade, Doncic, Carmello
The game changes every ten years...Jordan only had to play against US players. Lebron was able to move whenever his contract ran out. Kareem only had to play against half the best players in the world because of the ABA. The early generation guys had to be more well rounded because they had less than 100 jobs. The only constant in basketball is change you might not care about what came before you started watching but it still exists and has value.[/QUOTE]
How do you come up with a top 4 of MJ, Lebron, Wilt and Larry when by your own admission the game changes every decade( I would push that to about 15 years but the main point holds), and these guys were all at their best in different eras?
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14972676]How do you come up with a top 4 of MJ, Lebron, Wilt and Larry when by your own admission the game changes every decade( I would push that to about 15 years but the main point holds), and these guys were all at their best in different eras?[/QUOTE]
You've had enough interactions with that poster by now to know he's a troll, Seriously, look at that retarded array of rankings, why are you even asking him serious questions :lol
[QUOTE=John8204;14972534]I think it's pretty easy...divide the generations and positions
50-70 Wilt, Bill, Mikan, Oscar, West, Pettit. Havicek, Elgin, Arizin, Schayes
70-90 Bird, KAJ, Magic, Moses, Dr. J, Frazier. Barry, Gervin, Archibald, Thurmond
90-10 MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Stockton, Dirk, KG, Shaq, Barkley Iverson
10-25 Lebron, Curry, CPIII, Giannis, Durant, Jokic, Kwahi, Wade, Doncic, Carmello
The game changes every ten years...Jordan only had to play against US players. Lebron was able to move whenever his contract ran out. Kareem only had to play against half the best players in the world because of the ABA. The early generation guys had to be more well rounded because they had less than 100 jobs. The only constant in basketball is change you might not care about what came before you started watching but it still exists and has value.[/QUOTE]
I meant that you can't come up with a criteria that neatly fits all nba players within a top 10 list, which you seem to agree with. At a minimum we need two separate top 10 lists for old era and more modern era.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14972678]You've had enough interactions with that poster by now to know he's a troll, Seriously, look at that retarded array of rankings, why are you even asking him serious questions :lol[/QUOTE]
Yeah I know, it wasn't genuine engagement. Its like when I ask 3ball a 'serious' question, I do it more so I can laugh at the reply than any interest in actually discussing the topic. Or I like pointing out the contradictions within their own talking points. What can I say, it amuses me. :oldlol:
That John poster lost me at Stockton> Shaq.