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[QUOTE=Emile]^ Great post, I definitely see what you mean. Hopefully you also got what I was trying to say.[/QUOTE]
No...I understand. That's why I've made a conscience decision to only state opinions I can back up instead of some of the inflammatory things I said when I first joined this board.
[QUOTE]This board loves the MJ-Kobe comparisons. I try to talk about Larry Bird or Isiah Thomas and I may get 2 or 3 responses. I post video of Hakeem Olajuwon, no one responds. But when there's a Kobe to MJ comparison...[/QUOTE]
Regrettably, in this board, when it comes to retired players, Jordan is where the knowledge of the average fan starts and ends.
As for the comparison, let's get real. That's not prime Jordan. This is inexperienced, 28/6/6 Jordan who was selected 2nd all-NBA team, was not selected in an all-D team, led his team to 38 wins and finished 6th in MVP voting. And he's compared to a 12-year veteran, who's won MVP, led his team to 57 wins and is 2 wins away from the NBA finals. It's not a crime to believe/admit that Kobe at his absolute peak is not worse than [B]all [/B]Bulls' versions of Jordan.
[QUOTE=Emile]I pretty much see one common response/phrase here and not only here but pretty much wherever the topic at hand is brought up.
It's..
[B]Kobe will never be Michael Jordan[/b]
[B]Kobe will never be like Michael Jordan[/B]
[B]Kobe will never be another Michael Jordan. [/B]
[B]Kobe will never be better than Michael Jordan[/B]
And I think it's funny. There's a whole saga of youtube videos dedicated to that one premise, Kobe never being better than Michael Jordan. Not just that, countless of websites are being dedicated to that one theme, Kobe never being Michael Jordan.
I think it's ridiculous. But in a way understandable since Kobe is such a direct threat/competition to Jordan. Exact same style, mannerisms, even appearance. Take someone like LeBron or Shaq for example and they can be appreciated because they don't mimic Jordan as much.
But for Kobe, there's this huge Jordan barrier that prevents him from being appreciated. It's like, when people are finally ready to appreciate and celebrate Kobe, they just can't do it. Because the minute you praise Kobe, the question comes up, how does he stack against Jordan? And most just aren't ready to answer favorably for Kobe. They can't because the Jordan love is stronger so immediately they restore to sayings like "Kobe will never be Jordan". And go from there.
It's ridiculous and it's why Kobe gets taken for granted so much. Why is it to hard to accept him.
I remember someone in the media saying "falling in love with Kobe doesn't mean you're breaking up with Michael". I'd just like to add Doc Rivers' statement to that when he said that he wishes more people celebrated Kobe because we're all missing on how great he really is. And that is true.
Like my friend, watched the game last night, rabid Kobe hater, can't stand him and every time Kobe did something, he was impressed but held it back, his wow's were kind of wow's you see in the movies when people are frightened after being threatened at gun point.
It's silly. But is reality. People are missing out however. Players like Michael and Kobe come once a lifetime. We've been fortunate enough to live in the time when both played. One still is. And you're missing out.
Kobe's biggest mistake was breaking out just after Michael. When he memory still was fresh, when the emotions still were strong. And so on.
In a way, I do understand why Kobe has to go through so much to get his respect. But in a way I don't. So many of his feats have been undermined because people like to put a negative twist to everything he does.
" Had Shaq, did it against bad defense, didn't win, can't do this, can't do that" He really had to work harder than anyone to earn his respect IMO because people just didn't/ don't want to give it to him.
I don't expect any of this to really change, regardless of Kobe's success. Michael will still be the people's champion and a basketball icon. While Kobe will be that great player that a lot of people don't like. But at least, they"ll admit he's great.
i just think the MJ barrier is too much for many to overcome and give Kobe his props. And for one to really be celebrated, he has to be liked. Will Kobe ever get there? I dunno.
If he slips just once, commits one error, lot of people you don't see now will be back in full force. I'm not talking like it's a matter of life and death. It's just sports, fans take sides, root for players, root against players. Nothing big.
But I don't see a majority embracing Kobe and putting an extra positive twist to everything he does as was the case with Jordan, they will still try to nitpick and focus on the negative, no matter how small it is. In a way it's shame. I think only Laker fans fully understand and semi appreciate Kobe's greatness. As for the rest...they will think of this post as groupiesm, not because they necessarily disagree with the content but because they"ll be too annoyed by it to rationalize it.
Either way, respect or no respect, love or no love, whatever. It doesn't matter. Kobe just gotta keep going strong. His best is only yet to come and the window is open for quite a while.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but it doesn't help when u have people who grow up with Kobe saying MJ was noting compared to Kobe.I think kobe is great, but he just does so many things like MJ.Why is he shaking head and wagging his fingers??I think i saw a vid where he tapped the floor too.I understand kobe tho.If i was a Nba player i would do everything Mj did.I would probably pump fist after every shot.LOL
[QUOTE=Emile]I'm not talking about the thread question but how things are generally. Comparing a rookie Jordan to a 12 year vet Kobe is ridiculous IMO but it just really proves my point. And on top of that, you still had dozens of "Kobe will never be Jordan/Kobe was never better than Jordan replies".
I think it's ridiculous, always have.
It just proves though, people will not give Kobe an ounce more credit than they absolutely have to. Whereas for Jordan, they"ll melt and decorate everything nicely. Therefore, it's extremely hard for Kobe to win really anything. It's hard to even give Kobe props without digressing with a but...but this...but that...
It's really like Milton said, the mind is it's own place and in itself, can make heaven out of hell or hell out of heaven.
It is why the comparison of Kobe vs Jordan is incredibly unfair to Kobe. You may not think so, all the anti Kobe reasons may actually be legitimate to the Kobe detractors, you've convinced yourself of it but some of the reasons were beyond absurd and illogical. While for Jordan, everything still ends up so much more sugarcoated and gets that legendary feel to it when a legend is told and it's so amazing, flawless, perfect..
Not saying it's wrong or that people don't have right to feel or think however they want however, personally...I feel these comparisons come incredibly unfair to hm and common tendencies always make him look worse.
What I want to say is that if I wanted to put a negative twist to many things Jordan, I certainly could. And believe it, too. Jordan always wins his could-should-would's though..trait of love. As opposed to Kobe.
What tendencies I'm speaking of? Legend of Jordan, sugarcoating and putting the negative twist to all that's Kobe.
For example, when the Bulls win 55 games, it's ignored. When Kobe finally has good teammates, he's crucified for it. Not to mention the Shaq factor.
When Jordan would have huge scoring games he was the king and it was so hard at the time. When Kobe has them, it's a weak era, it's a bad team, he got too many FT's, didn't have enough assists.. There are so many things, it's not even funny.
Everything Kobe does, a negative twist it put to it. Everything Jordan got was celebrated. Just like Jalen Rose said.
It's just a lot of those natural tendencies. Comparisons are unfair to Kobe simply because the Jordan bias is too strong. I'm not calling out anyone, we're all just people after all. And fans at that.[/QUOTE]
LOL wats with the 55 win season.U guys like to point out that in 93 they had less.Let me tell u how the 93 season went.In the summer of 92 pippen and Mj played for the Dream team which wore them out and Mj had a wrist problem the whole season.The arguement is also flawed because in 1992 they had a 60 win season.The 94 team was an experience team led by scootie in his prime.87-92 Scottie didn't really help in the playoffs series.Go look at his stats.u will see alot of 6-22.Scottie helped in the most improtant part tho was his defense.
[QUOTE=Da_Realist][B]2007/08 Kobe[/B] -- [B]28.3 pts[/B], 6.3 rbs, 5.4 asts, 1.8 stls, 0.5 blks, 45.9%
[B]1984/85 MJ[/B] -- 28.2 pts, [B]6.5 rbs, 5.9 asts, 2.4 stls, 0.8 blks, 51.5%[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure you can base your argument simply on numbers. We're trying to compare 2008 to 1985, a 23 year span. A lot of changes have occured and there are a lot of differences between the two eras.
For example, teams in 1984-1985 game up 110.8 points per game on average. Teams today give up 99.9 points per game on average. The pace was much different with more fast break basketball and more possessions per game. You cannot accurately support an argument with stats without taking into account the various factors that serve to influence those stats.
[QUOTE=MaxFly]I'm not sure you can base your argument simply on numbers. We're trying to compare 2008 to 1985, a 23 year span. A lot of changes have occured and there are a lot of differences between the two eras.
For example, teams in 1984-1985 game up 110.8 points per game on average. Teams today give up 99.9 points per game on average. The pace was much different with more fast break basketball and more possessions per game. You cannot accurately support an argument with stats without taking into account the various factors that serve to influence those stats.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but the asts,blks,rebs stay the same.The PPg has been decreasing since the 80s.The 90s had like 100PPG averge i think.I don't know why because the only thing that was changed from the 80s and 90s was the flagrant fouls 3 second rules.
[QUOTE=Emile]I pretty much see one common response/phrase here and not only here but pretty much wherever the topic at hand is brought up.
It's..
[B]Kobe will never be Michael Jordan[/b]
[B]Kobe will never be like Michael Jordan[/B]
[B]Kobe will never be another Michael Jordan. [/B]
[B]Kobe will never be better than Michael Jordan[/B]
And I think it's funny. There's a whole saga of youtube videos dedicated to that one premise, Kobe never being better than Michael Jordan. Not just that, countless of websites are being dedicated to that one theme, Kobe never being Michael Jordan.
I think it's ridiculous. But in a way understandable since Kobe is such a direct threat/competition to Jordan. Exact same style, mannerisms, even appearance. Take someone like LeBron or Shaq for example and they can be appreciated because they don't mimic Jordan as much.
But for Kobe, there's this huge Jordan barrier that prevents him from being appreciated. It's like, when people are finally ready to appreciate and celebrate Kobe, they just can't do it. Because the minute you praise Kobe, the question comes up, how does he stack against Jordan? And most just aren't ready to answer favorably for Kobe. They can't because the Jordan love is stronger so immediately they restore to sayings like "Kobe will never be Jordan". And go from there.
It's ridiculous and it's why Kobe gets taken for granted so much. Why is it to hard to accept him.
I remember someone in the media saying "falling in love with Kobe doesn't mean you're breaking up with Michael". I'd just like to add Doc Rivers' statement to that when he said that he wishes more people celebrated Kobe because we're all missing on how great he really is. And that is true.
Like my friend, watched the game last night, rabid Kobe hater, can't stand him and every time Kobe did something, he was impressed but held it back, his wow's were kind of wow's you see in the movies when people are frightened after being threatened at gun point.
It's silly. But is reality. People are missing out however. Players like Michael and Kobe come once a lifetime. We've been fortunate enough to live in the time when both played. One still is. And you're missing out.
Kobe's biggest mistake was breaking out just after Michael. When he memory still was fresh, when the emotions still were strong. And so on.
In a way, I do understand why Kobe has to go through so much to get his respect. But in a way I don't. So many of his feats have been undermined because people like to put a negative twist to everything he does.
" Had Shaq, did it against bad defense, didn't win, can't do this, can't do that" He really had to work harder than anyone to earn his respect IMO because people just didn't/ don't want to give it to him.
I don't expect any of this to really change, regardless of Kobe's success. Michael will still be the people's champion and a basketball icon. While Kobe will be that great player that a lot of people don't like. But at least, they"ll admit he's great.
i just think the MJ barrier is too much for many to overcome and give Kobe his props. And for one to really be celebrated, he has to be liked. Will Kobe ever get there? I dunno.
If he slips just once, commits one error, lot of people you don't see now will be back in full force. I'm not talking like it's a matter of life and death. It's just sports, fans take sides, root for players, root against players. Nothing big.
But I don't see a majority embracing Kobe and putting an extra positive twist to everything he does as was the case with Jordan, they will still try to nitpick and focus on the negative, no matter how small it is. In a way it's shame. I think only Laker fans fully understand and semi appreciate Kobe's greatness. As for the rest...they will think of this post as groupiesm, not because they necessarily disagree with the content but because they"ll be too annoyed by it to rationalize it.
Either way, respect or no respect, love or no love, whatever. It doesn't matter. Kobe just gotta keep going strong. His best is only yet to come and the window is open for quite a while.[/QUOTE]
I don't love Jordan, I don't like Jordan, I was never a fan of his and I never rooted for the Bulls.
Like, dislike, love, hate... none of these matter.
Nobody to be taken seriously compares the two in the sense of actually thinking Kobe might be at that level or better.
Jordan was better. [B][U][I]By far.[/I][/U][/B] Get the **** over it.
[QUOTE=juju151111]LOL wats with the 55 win season.U guys like to point out that in 93 they had less.Let me tell u how the 93 season went.In the summer of 92 pippen and Mj played for the Dream team which wore them out and Mj had a wrist problem the whole season.The arguement is also flawed because in 1992 they had a 60 win season.The 94 team was an experience team led by scootie in his prime.87-92 Scottie didn't really help in the playoffs series.Go look at his stats.u will see alot of 6-22.Scottie helped in the most improtant part tho was his defense.[/QUOTE]
My point exactly. I don't care. Don't need to get all defensive. I'm not trying to dethrone MJ. Just wanted to illustrate that there's plenty of good, bad and whatever you want to make it look like in everything. Therefore, if you'd put a negative twist to everything about Jordan, decide to focus on the negative, decide to highlight each bad thing, you very well could make him look worse.
That 94 season is one thing I don't get. Why being so defensive about it and unable to admit that it happened? Doesn't take anything away from Jordan. That simply was a great Bulls team with a great coach. Basketball is a team sport. No one can win by themselves. Wilt couldn't do it. Neither could Jordan. Neither could Kobe. Neither could Shaq. Neither could Duncan. No one. It's 5 on 5 plus benches plus coaching.
In contrast to Kobe, 94 season is ignored or debated. But a few years ago, perhaps even now, it was a fact that Shaq could've won titles win just about everyone, basically to take credit away from Kobe. And it grew from a perception to reality. Even though 2 seasons before, Shaq would get swept, with other all star players on his team as well.
But slowly, credit from Kobe was taken away. On counterfactual.
It's like everything with him, there's a way to put a negative twist to all he does. And since people generally want to believe that more than the Bulls actually being great even without Jordan, they do. While the 94 Bulls is rarely brought up. Only by Kobe fans, basically. And is still considered a blasphemy to bring it up.
So basically, like Jalen Rose said....when Kobe does something, everyone are like ummmm "did they win, how many assists he had", basically trying to take away while Jordan would just get celebrated. And I do think that's more of a general thing, not just MJ/Kobe thing. Everyone is a MJ fan after all.
LeBron fans, VC fans, T Mac fans..whoever. But Kobe is that connection between the past, recent past, present and the future, being compared to all from Jordan to LeBron, thus automatically almost being disliked by them. And generally had a bad image for quite a while.
I realize how you guys get annoyed by people saying Kobe > MJ. Those however are kids, kids who don't know better. But other than a few of them claiming that, I do think generally the bias for Jordan is so strong that it's unfair to Kobe. Not a whole lot of people I think can be counted on for being level headed about it.
I personally am a Kobe fan but I feel MJ was a better and more talented individual. Not by as much many would like to think though. I feel if MJ is 99, Kobe is 95. However, in terms of accomplishments it isn't even close. Who knows though, I hope it will be some day.
[QUOTE=Emile]I personally am a Kobe fan but I feel MJ was a better and more talented individual. [B]Not by as much many would like to think though.[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh for ****'s sake. It has nothing to do with "would like to think" and it has everything to do with reality. The reality is that it's not some small gap in difference. It's rather large. Just like every other perimeter player in history has a large gap between them and Jordan.
[QUOTE=Vendetta]I don't love Jordan, I don't like Jordan, I was never a fan of his and I never rooted for the Bulls.
Like, dislike, love, hate... none of these matter.
Nobody to be taken seriously compares the two in the sense of actually thinking Kobe might be at that level or better.
Jordan was better. [B][U][I]By far.[/I][/U][/B] Get the **** over it.[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah, you're the one to be a voice of reason here.
[QUOTE=Emile]My point exactly. I don't care. Don't need to get all defensive. I'm not trying to dethrone MJ. Just wanted to illustrate that there's plenty of good, bad and whatever you want to make it look like in everything. Therefore, if you'd put a negative twist to everything about Jordan, decide to focus on the negative, decide to highlight each bad thing, you very well could make him look worse.
That 94 season is one thing I don't get. Why being so defensive about it and unable to admit that it happened? Doesn't take anything away from Jordan. That simply was a great Bulls team with a great coach. Basketball is a team sport. No one can win by themselves. Wilt couldn't do it. Neither could Jordan. Neither could Kobe. Neither could Shaq. Neither could Duncan. No one. It's 5 on 5 plus benches plus coaching.
In contrast to Kobe, 94 season is ignored or debated. But a few years ago, perhaps even now, it was a fact that Shaq could've won titles win just about everyone, basically to take credit away from Kobe. And it grew from a perception to reality. Even though 2 seasons before, Shaq would get swept, with other all star players on his team as well.
But slowly, credit from Kobe was taken away. On counterfactual.
It's like everything with him, there's a way to put a negative twist to all he does. And since people generally want to believe that more than the Bulls actually being great even without Jordan, they do. While the 94 Bulls is rarely brought up. Only by Kobe fans, basically. And is still considered a blasphemy to bring it up.
So basically, like Jalen Rose said....when Kobe does something, everyone are like ummmm "did they win, how many assists he had", basically trying to take away while Jordan would just get celebrated. And I do think that's more of a general thing, not just MJ/Kobe thing. Everyone is a MJ fan after all.
LeBron fans, VC fans, T Mac fans..whoever. But Kobe is that connection between the past, recent past, present and the future, being compared to all from Jordan to LeBron, thus automatically almost being disliked by them. And generally had a bad image for quite a while.
I realize how you guys get annoyed by people saying Kobe > MJ. Those however are kids, kids who don't know better. But other than a few of them claiming that, I do think generally the bias for Jordan is so strong that it's unfair to Kobe. Not a whole lot of people I think can be counted on for being level headed about it.
I personally am a Kobe fan but I feel MJ was a better and more talented individual. Not by as much many would like to think though. I feel if MJ is 99, Kobe is 95. However, in terms of accomplishments it isn't even close. Who knows though, I hope it will be some day.[/QUOTE]
I am sorry i sounded defensive.U and a few other people are the only one who post things that make sense.I ushally get Mj era was soft,kobe more athlethic etc...I do think it's unfair for kobe because he doesn't really compare his self to mj.The media does most of that.When was the last time u seen Kobe do something amazing without one commentator saying mj name.They did it yesterday too.
Thanks for the compliment.
Well, the way I see it, I don't see anything wrong with commentators bringing up MJ because they're right IMO. Let's face it, those things that Kobe can do and does them, only MJ could, they're amazing from will to degree of difficulty to the amazement factor. So I guess it's natural for them to be reminded of MJ in an instant. It's not a bad thing IMO. It's just incredible skill that in all years of the league has only been seen perhaps in those two players and a few more but those two happen to play the same style.
I don't generally see a problem with that, I think it's just fan sensitivity. I remember when Gilbert Arenas got on fire last year. scored a lot of 3's and commentators were saying it reminded them of Kobe, in fact he was doing it against Kobe. They went nuts at lakersground calling it a fluke and luck and marking days until Kobe can pay him back. Arenas did score like 60 points that game and that's rare. So really, instead of giving props, they hated it and put a bad twist to it.
It's silly IMO. We're witnessing greatness yet can't enjoy it and get annoyed for those silly things and side taking. Takes away the beauty of basketball.
I mean, as a Kobe fan I definitely do want him to accomplish more than anyone when it's all said and done but it's pretty obvious what a longshot that is and how long it will take. I'm hoping though.
[QUOTE=MaxFly]I'm not sure you can base your argument simply on numbers. We're trying to compare 2008 to 1985, a 23 year span. A lot of changes have occured and there are a lot of differences between the two eras.
For example, teams in 1984-1985 game up 110.8 points per game on average. Teams today give up 99.9 points per game on average. The pace was much different with more fast break basketball and more possessions per game. You cannot accurately support an argument with stats without taking into account the various factors that serve to influence those stats.[/QUOTE]
yeah..you can....MJ took less shots to get his points than Kobe did even in the higher scoring era and shot a higher percentage...even Wade and Tony Parker can shoot over 50%..why can't Kobe ??...this era is high scoring as well considering what teams like the Nuggets did this year...
[QUOTE=deion2123]yeah..you can....MJ took less shots to get his points than Kobe did even in the higher scoring era and shot a higher percentage...even Wade and Tony Parker can shoot over 50%..why can't Kobe ??...this era is high scoring as well considering what teams like the Nuggets did this year...[/QUOTE]
The answer is wade and parker drive the ball and take mid range shots.
[QUOTE]yeah..you can....MJ took less shots to get his points than Kobe did even in the higher scoring era and shot a higher percentage...even Wade and Tony Parker can shoot over 50%..why can't Kobe ??...this era is high scoring as well considering what teams like the Nuggets did this year...[/QUOTE]
I accept the first part, but, about percentages:
-Wade and Parker take very few long range shots. Parker was taking quite a few 3's more in the beginning of his career and his percentage never got as high as when he stopped. Kobe last year shot 49.7% in 2-point shots.
-Wade and Parker are quicker when driving to the basket.
-Parker never had to score as much as Kobe and wouldn't shoot 50% if he did.
-Technically, Wade never shot 50%.
-Similarly to your argument, Magic in 1985 shot 56%, Bernard King shot 53% and Dantley 53.1%. So why didn't Jordan?