Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=BIZARRO]This is the second time in the thread where you have brought this point of "accomplishments" up between Bird and Shaq and I've got to call you on it. Which I would assume to mean championships as [B]Bird has 3 MVP's [/B]to Shaq's 1. (Though Shaq has 3 Finals MVP's to Bird's 2.)
But the "accomplishments" meaning "championships" argument when comparing Shaq and Bird is absolute B.S. because Bird played in an an absolutely killer era where [B]EVERY[/B] championship team was an all time great team.
3 titles in an era with the early '80's Sixers, Bad Boy Pistons, Showtime Lakers is = or > than 4 against an era with NBA Finals teams like 2000 Pacers, 2001 Sixers, and 2002 Nets and 2006 Mavericks making the Finals.
So Bird's accomplishments match up just fine, while playing fewer seasons.
P.S. I won't go into the fact that you actually said Bill Russell isn't truly great.
You may not think he is top 5 ever and that is fine.
But the guy doesn't have enough fingers for his rings, [B]MEANING 11 [/B], on a team he was the best player on. Please don't insult him by saying he isn't truly great. Especially considering you never saw him play.
Or Wilt and Oscar for that matter.[/QUOTE]
I've watched enough of Bill Russel. He is in my top 10, though not top 5.
Furthermore stop bringing up the era in which Bird played in. I can bring up Wilts era and say it was utter trash bar a few great players.
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Showtime]I'm not complaining, just listing why I don't feel he's a top 5 player of all time. Do you think Lebron is top 5 all time?
Yeah, he's efficient with his 14/9 a game. I'm talking about if he's such a great player, then why isn't he more effective when he's in great shape now? Why can't he do more for a team?
KAJ, at 35, was putting up 22/8/3/2 on .588 FG%
Shaq at 35, last year total, put up 14/9/2/1 on .593 FG%
I don't expect Shaq to put up 33/15 ever night, but if he really is as good as people think he is, and better than KAJ, then why, when he's in good shape, can't he be more effective? With that being said, his current production isn't my only point.
In my mind, it's not enough to be top 5 all time, because it still doesn't make up for his own ego getting in the way of fulfilling his potential.
I didn't say he's useless, only that for a top 5 player of all time, he should be more productive and have more impact on his team.
14/8 is 3rd best center? Hell, Brad Miller put up 13/10/4 last year and was the west's best shooting center. Does that mean Miller is a top 5 center?
That's not what I said. I said he was never the league's elite post defender despite his unmatched size and athleticism.
He wasn't a great individual defender, and his post defense that you describe is mainly on reputation, because perimeter players knew that if they attacked Shaq, they were probably going to get hammered by the 350+lb monster. Shaq was, again, never the elite post defender in the league. That doesn't mean he couldn't change shots or impact the post.
So you feel that there are, at most, only 4 players that have ever lived that could be considered better?[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying Lebron is top 5 ever. Are you dense? I said Lebron scores in a similar fashion to Shaq. Brute strength. So I guess Lebron isn't top 5 in the league due to not being as skilled as the other players and not being a great freethrow shooter.
You can be in good shape at 35, though its not the same as in good shape and 25. Shaq still shots 60% from the field. What more do you want him to do? He is 35 and a lot heavier.
So 14 seasons of 20 and 10 is not enough to put you in the top 5. A decade and a half of dominance and always being in the elite group of players and at times the greatest player. Well then, do you consider Wilt better then Shaq? If you do, you are a hypocrite as Wilt had the same longevity as Shaq pretty much.
KAJ was only a double double man for 12 seasons. Less then Shaq and Wilt.
Furthermore all 3 centers have very similar stats over 36 minutes with Shaq being the best scorer and really not too far off on the defensive end with Kareem only averaging .2 blocks more.
Are you saying that Brad Miller impacts the game as much as Shaq?
That's exactly what a good defender is. One that alters shots and movements. Shaq did that. Shaq played lazy D, though it was still good defense and he often led great centers to shoot poor numbers when playing against him.
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=juju151111]LOL Shaq was asked of his all-time team and he put Hakeem in it.Hakeem is the only Center shaq doesn't bad mounth.He evn bad mounths kareem, but he no the deal with The dream.He can't keep up with him.[/QUOTE]
He also put Barkley on their ahead of Bird.
I guess Barkley>Bird now?
Also Hakeem> KAJ and Wilt.
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=plowking]I've watched enough of Bill Russel. [B]He is in my top 10, though not top 5.[/B]
Furthermore stop bringing up the era in which Bird played in. I can bring up Wilts era and say it was utter trash bar a few great players.[/QUOTE]
And top 10 of all time doesn't make Russell
"truly great"? :confusedshrug:
Secondly, my point about Bird's era is absolutely pertinent. It is harder to go through Doctor, Moses, The Bad Boys, Showtime, etc. than Dirk Nowitzki. :pimp:
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Psileas]Wilt-Jordan-Kareem-Russell-Magic, followed by Bird, Shaq, Oscar.
This still makes him the most injury-prone among all players (in their prime, since you only included Orlando-Lakers Shaq) that I rank so high. Even Bird, with all his back issues, rarely missed games in his prime (27 in his first 9 years, to be exact). Magic Johnson, also a player who faced a few injuries here and there, once missed 45 games, but, apart from this, played in 92.8% of his games. Young and prime Shaq played in 85% of his available games. The only player whom I rank even close to Shaq and was as injury-prone is Jerry West, and I rank him below Shaq.
That's the case with big intimidating centers and Shaq was a great intimidator, but that doesn't mean he was a great individual defender. At least, not in the ranks of Hakeem/Mutombo/Robinson/Ben Wallace, just to include the best defenders of his own era.
If you said so,
1) you'd be lying, because Wilt won 2 championships, not 1.
2) with competition at its worst, Wilt still had to face Russell (and the Celtics) for like 15% of his regular season games and for more than 50% of his playoff games year after year, Clyde Lovelette for plenty of games and, by his 3rd year, Walt Bellamy. You can't compare this to facing Ben Wallace and past-prime Robinson as your best competitors (EDIT: yes, I know Robinson had Duncan next to him, but I didn't include him due to the position matter, and even if I did, I'd have to do the same with Lovelette and include Bob Pettit to Wilt's competition, as well).
Actually, regardless of competition, whenever Wilt lost the title, it was [B]always [/B]against the eventual champions (except once).
3) Wilt was still in his prime when he won his first title.[/QUOTE]
From watching Shaq over his career and his 2.5 blocks over his career tells me that he is a decent, above average defender.
Also you know what I meant about the Wilt thing. I meant win one championship as the main guy, which is all he has. The other one he was not the best player.
You are not dominant if you can't win titles and Wilt couldn't win unless he was on the best team (you said it yourself in another thread).
The fact that you put Wilt over Jordan is an outrage. How so? Jordan has better number, more accomplishments, was a better defender.
Also don't bring up all these names from the 60's and 70's saying they were better then the centers Shaq had to face simply because they are in the hall of fame. A lot of them are there simply for paving the way for basketball. The only center that was better then the competition Shaq had to face was Russel.
I mean centers such as Unseld are considered great from that period of time.
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=BIZARRO]And top 10 of all time doesn't make Russell
"truly great"? :confusedshrug:
Secondly, my point about Bird's era is absolutely pertinent. It is harder to go through Doctor, Moses, The Bad Boys, Showtime, etc. than Dirk Nowitzki. :pimp:[/QUOTE]
Who did Wilt have to beat in the NBA finals? An injured Willis Reed?
Well MJ didn't have to face the same sort of competition as Bird either.
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=plowking]Who did Wilt have to beat in the NBA finals? An injured Willis Reed?
Well MJ didn't have to face the same sort of competition as Bird either.[/QUOTE]
Wilt had to beat the greatest dynasty in NBA History almost every year.
And you're right MJ didn't face the same sort of competition as Bird either, but he has [B]6 titles as the 1st option[/B]. Whereas Bird and Shaq both have 3.
In truth, I don't measure players just by the "championships" or "MVP's", I do it just by [B]watching them play[/B], and then coming to a conclusion.
You may be right. Shaq at his best may have been better than Bird. Maybe.
But it isn't because of the Miami championship, etc. Or Bird isn't better because of his 3 MVP's. All this helps, but is secondary. It is because one was better by opinion from just watching them over a lot of time. It is only arguable as well if one has seen both play.
However, I would like to point out that it is almost impossible to get a clear truthful opinion of someone we never saw play. And to keep that in mind.
Anyway, IMO there are probably 10-12 players who can make a case for top 5if we include the old timers we didn't see play. And most have good arguments.
Other than MJ, everyone else of the next 10 or so seem pretty close IMO.
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=plowking]He also put Barkley on their ahead of Bird.
I guess Barkley>Bird now?
Also Hakeem> KAJ and Wilt.[/QUOTE]
[B]Barkley had way more impact than Bird but Bird was more skilled. They are both Greates [/B]
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Wilt had to beat the greatest dynasty in NBA History almost every year.
And you're right MJ didn't face the same sort of competition as Bird either, but he has [B]6 titles as the 1st option[/B]. Whereas Bird and Shaq both have 3.
In truth, I don't measure players just by the "championships" or "MVP's", I do it just by [B]watching them play[/B], and then coming to a conclusion.
You may be right. Shaq at his best may have been better than Bird. Maybe.
But it isn't because of the Miami championship, etc. Or Bird isn't better because of his 3 MVP's. All this helps, but is secondary. It is because one was better by opinion from just watching them over a lot of time. It is only arguable as well if one has seen both play.
However, I would like to point out that it is almost impossible to get a clear truthful opinion of someone we never saw play. And to keep that in mind.
Anyway, IMO there are probably 10-12 players who can make a case for top 5if we include the old timers we didn't see play. And most have good arguments.
Other than MJ, everyone else of the next 10 or so seem pretty close IMO.[/QUOTE]
Who would you pick on your team first now knowing the way that each of their careers played out. I'd pick Shaq. Soo many times to the finals and great numbers each time.
I think people are hesitant to put Shaq in their top 5 either due to his attitude or the fact that he is still playing. Once he is said and done, people will realize the greatness that was once infront of them.
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Barkley had way more impact than Bird but Bird was more skilled. They are both Greates [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't kid yourself Sir Charles. Bird impacted the game far more then Barkley.
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
1. MJ
2. Hakeem
3. Jabbar
4. Bird
5. Magic
Wilt, West, Duncan, Zeke, and then maybe Shaq. I'm probably being too hard on Shaq, but I absolutely hate his "game" and his attitude. Horrible for the game of basketball.
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=RonySeikalyFTW]1. MJ
2. Hakeem
3. Jabbar
4. Bird
5. Magic
Wilt, West, Duncan, Zeke, and then maybe Shaq. I'm probably being too hard on Shaq, but I absolutely hate his "game" and his attitude. Horrible for the game of basketball.[/QUOTE]
Hakeem number 2? Are you serious?
Furthermore Duncan ahead of Shaq?
Just explain to me how you came to these conclusions.
Furthermore aren't you a Heat fan like myself. You would have seen Shaq in his first year here still a dominant force, even at his age at the time.
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=plowking]Hakeem number 2? Are you serious?
Furthermore Duncan ahead of Shaq?
Just explain to me how you came to these conclusions.
Furthermore aren't you a Heat fan like myself. You would have seen Shaq in his first year here still a dominant force, even at his age at the time.[/QUOTE]
1 -- Jordan
YouTube - Michael Jordan - Stop the Comparisons
I read a book a few years ago, Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball? by Elliott Kalb, that ranked the top 50 players of all time. He had Jordan ranked #3. LOL. Highest career ppg, 5MVPs, 6 championships, 10 time All-NBA First Team, 9 time All-Defensive First Team. But hey, if you're gonna write a book that tells everyone what they already know -- that Jordan is the best player in history without a close second -- you probably aren't going to sell many copies.
If you want to understand Michael Jordan, try to understand domination. If you want to understand domination, here's a snapshot of Jordan dominating one of the top five shooting guards to ever play the game:
YouTube - Michael Jordan vs Clyde Drexler and Portland Trail Blazers
2 -- Hakeem Olajuwon
YouTube - Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwons Greatest Hits
I know this is a controversial choice, I just don't know why. Hakeem, along with Tim Duncan, has to be one of the most underrated and underappreciated legends in the history of sports. He spent the majority of his career dominating the league both offensively AND defensively, a career played during the golden era of juggernaut centers. Hakeem faced them all and defeated them all. In the playoffs, no center has scored at a higher rate. And no center has ever played better D. Olajuwon also had the footwork and moves that most All-Star forwards envy:
"The best footwork I've ever seen from a big man." -- Pete Newell
"Hakeem has five moves then four countermoves, that gives him 20 moves." -- Shaq O'Neal
"Hakeem? You don't solve Hakeem." -- David Robinson
YouTube - Olajuwon dominates Robinson
He was a basketball prodigy, he really didn't have a single weakness. The ONLY player in NBA history to finish a season top 10 in points, rebounds, blocks, and steals. The ONLY player in NBA history to win MVP, Finals MVP, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season. The fact that no one criticizes Houston for taking Hakeem #1 when Jordan was on the board speaks volumes about The Dream.
3 -- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
After Lew Alcinder's sophomore year at UCLA, the NCAA outlawed dunking. The rule wasn't intended to make Alcinder a better professional player, but it did. He was forced to work on other shots. So Alcinder developed the impossible-to-defend ambidextrous Sky Hook which to this day remains the game's most unstoppable move, a shot that has only ever been blocked by Wilt Chambelain and Hakeem Olajuwon. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar would go on score more career points than anyone before or after him, and win 6 MVPs and 6 championships. He utterly dominated the 70s and won multiple rings in the 80s.
The only knock I have against Jabbar is that he never convincingly overcame a legit challenge from a fellow 7-footer at a time when both centers were in their prime. His Lakers lost to Bill Walton's Trailblazers in 1977. He faced Wilt Chamberlain 27 times, winning 13 times. Through the first 11 games, they played to a virtual standstill. But by their 12th encounter, Wilt was fading into retirement, and Kareem put it on him. In his 1983 autobiography, Kareem wrote:
Toward the end of his career, when he was 36 and I was 25, I had it any way I wanted. The Bucks would play the Lakers at the Forum, and I'd be getting 50 points against him; he'd try the fadeaway, but I'd be there to block it, and he'd storm out to halfcourt. With his career being closed in his face, he must have taken the defeat to heart.
Much like Chamberlain in the 70s, Kareem was the one on the downside of his career when he faced Hakeem Olajuwon in the 1986 Playoffs. And Olajuwon ate his lunch.
Flame away
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
And Duncan > Shaq for my honest opinion. Shaq is great when everything is going great, but the guy crumbles when faced with adversity.
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=RonySeikalyFTW]And Duncan > Shaq for my honest opinion. Shaq is great when everything is going great, but the guy crumbles when faced with adversity.[/QUOTE]
Shaq has better career stats, better playoff stats, is more of an icon then Tim Duncan has ever been, way better finals stats.