Michael Jordan Anti-clutch Log

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln]You don't get it man. It be not only Jordan fans who despise the Bryant fellators. Be it as in 1962, Chamberlain was a bullcrap goaltending call away from defeating the Celtics and surely winning the championship. In his 50 point 25 rebound season. It is inarguable that Michael Jordan be the most overhyped player ever seen. It is also inarguable that he be more lucky throughout thy career than Wilt Chamberlain was, who with a few reversed plays over the years could easily have 6 or more championships. It is inarguable Wilt Chamberlain be the unluckiest player along with the incomprable Elgin Baylor. It be inarguable the Chamberlain is the most dominant force the league has ever seen on all ends of the floor. It be inarguable that Jordan fans have insulted the likes of Chamberlain. It be inarguable that Jordan himself has insulted Chamberlain, merely calling him another Shaquille O'Neal. Just as it be inarguable that Bryant fans be the most dispicable creatures to ever roam the planet. Keep proving the wise man's point.[/QUOTE]

Yet, the "wise man" is in every thread siding with Jordan fans, aswell as Jordan stans who obviously hate Kobe...And ofcourse Kobe fans are the most dispicable creatures to ever roam the planet...:rolleyes:

you cant win them all....but he does have 6 titles to his name...and thats all that counts.

[QUOTE=mamba24]you cant win them all....but he does have 6 titles to his name...and thats all that counts.[/QUOTE]

Dispicable Kobe fan...:mad:





Just imagine if you had a MJ Hanes Underwear Avatar and said.."I don't like Kobe, he's the mst overrated piece of sh!t in the world"....Then, you would be a wise man...:D

[QUOTE=branslowski]Yet, the "wise man" is in every thread siding with Jordan fans, aswell as Jordan stans who obviously hate Kobe...And ofcourse Kobe fans are the most dispicable creatures to ever roam the planet...:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Something I'll never understand as well, but hey WILT is the Greatest player of all times young wise man...:oldlol:

[QUOTE=branslowski]Yet, the "wise man" is in every thread siding with Jordan fans, aswell as Jordan stans who obviously hate Kobe...[/QUOTE]
For the wise man depicts the morality of our true creedence, which be that the trashing of Bryant followers be not neccesarily a direct link to my apparent kindred creedence to them. The wise man defends words, not egotistical mortals. For this be the same argument I have had with many of them before, prior to the age of the internet.

[QUOTE]And ofcourse Kobe fans are the most dispicable creatures to ever roam the planet...:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]You guys have taken that title from the Jordan fans around 2003. By 2006 it was insanity.

His list of failures isnt even long enough for someone to b*tch about..maybe if it was posted by someone other than fatal...hey who knows

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln]For the wise man depicts the morality of our true creedence, which be that the trashing of Bryant followers be not neccesarily a direct link to my apparent kindred creedence to them. The wise man defends words, not egotistical mortals. For this be the same argument I have had with many of them before, prior to the age of the internet.

[B]You guys have taken that title from the Jordan fans around 2003. By 2006 it was insanity.[/B][/QUOTE]
this sentence was written normally?? :eek:

[QUOTE=catch24]Granted I don't see you really being a Wilt guy, I agree. Jordan fans are just as bad sh!tting on ERA's past. For the most part, they're better than KB homers respecting NBA greats..[/QUOTE]
For really the man must consider, who here really gives a **** about Chamberlain or his contemporaries enough to troll. 99% of the trolling here be about Jordan, Bryant, or both.

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln]For really the man must consider, who here really gives a **** about Chamberlain or his contemporaries enough to troll. 99% of the trolling here be about Jordan, Bryant, or both.[/QUOTE]

Everyone knows Wilt was great arguably the best at his position/GOAT, but you're busting a fatal9...stop :oldlol:

[QUOTE=catch24]Everyone knows Wilt was great arguably the best at his position/GOAT, but you're busting a fatal9...stop :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

The worst part is...I don't know if I wan't to comment on the Wilt/MJ debate thing...Because if I prove to him (A Wilt Fan ) that MJ is the GOAT, I don't know if he's gonna be upset, or happy...:oldlol:

[QUOTE=catch24]Everyone knows Wilt was great arguably the best at his position/GOAT, but you're busting a fatal9...stop :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Thou has some nerve, for not only be it arguable that Chamberlain is not the best, but now it is being narrowed down to not even the best center? :roll:

[I][B][U]Wilt vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar:[/U][/B] Wilt simply was a more dominant player. He could pour on the offense to higher degrees than Kareem. Wilt is the greatest rebounder in history, and Kareem was a weak rebounder for his size. Wilt was a better passer, and I believe, a better defender. When Wilt was in his final 2 years, which corresponded with Kareem's 3rd and 4th year, Wilt was still making the first team all-defense over Kareem. None of this is a bag on Kareem, because I do believe Kareem is one of the 3 greatest centers in history, but he simply was no Wilt.

Some will try to bring up rings. This is a silly argument, since rings are a team achievement, but still, consider that during Kareem's first 10 years, he won 1 ring, and made the finals 3 times. When Wilt did this, fools call it "choking", but Kareem "didn't have the teammates." Frankly, if Kareem didn't have one of the 2 greatest point guards in history (Oscar Robertson or Magic Johnson), then his teams did extremely poorly. In 1975 and 1976, Kareem led them to losing records. In 1977, they were higher-seeded and got swept by Bill Walton's Traiblazers. In 1978, they were finished 4th place in the 5 team Pacific Division. In 1979, they finished 3rd in the 6th team Pacific Division. Did he have teammates? Well, in 1979, he had Norm Nixon, Adrian Dantley, and Jamaal Wilkes. Is that talent? So in the 5 seasons without Magic and Oscar, they won only 1 division title, and never won a game past the conference semi-finals. In 1980, Magic Johnson joined the Lakers, and they started winning titles. When Kareem retired in 1989, the Lakers replaced him with Vlade Divac and won 6 MORE games. Food for thought.

So did Kareem win titles? No. The Lakers (and Bucks) won titles. One man teams do not win titles.

Kareem did play longer, but does this make Robert Parish better than Kareem? No. Also, Kareem played less minutes than Wilt. Who couldn't play more games when they are pacing themselves? Kareem played 20 seasons to Wilt's 14. However, if you take Wilt's min/game and turn them into the number of games Kareem played, Wilt played the equivalent of 18 seasons! And consider, in Wilt's final season, he set a record for field goal percentage (72.7%), led the league in rebounds, and was first team all-defense (over Kareem). Wilt retired while he was still a star in the league. When Kareem retired, he wasn't even beating out backup Mychal Thompson in minutes. Kareem was a starter by title-only. He also hacked off Lakers' GM Jerry West by coming to work out of shape, and giving what was considered a half-hearted effort. You can read about this in Kareem's book Kareem. You can also read Kareem try to justify his poor work habit.

So once you slice through the superficial rhetoric, it comes down to who was the most dominant player and the answer was Wilt. He could fill any role on a team. Kareem could not. If you needed someone to focus on defense and clean the glass, Kareem couldn't do it.


[B][U]Wilt vs. Bill Russell:[/U][/B] Wilt. No iffs ands or butts. Russell's offensive game was very limited. According to Russell, himself, Wilt could do Russell's role better than Russell, "Wilt is playing better than I used to -- passing off, coming out to set up screens, picking up guys outside, and sacrificing himself for team play." (Great Moments in Pro Basketball, by Sam Goldaper, p.24) Russell said this while he was player-coach of the Celtics. Russell could not fulfill as many roles as Wilt, especially if he had to be first option on offense. While some of Russell's teammates try to belittle Wilt by saying if Wilt were a Celtic, they would have won a few titles, but not as many, I have yet to see anybody step forward and say that Russell could have led the Warriors to the title.

For those who say rings are the thing and want to judge a player based on what 12 players do, I ask: is Dennis Rodman better than Karl Malone? Sam Jones better than Michael Jordan? Luc Longley better than Patrick Ewing? Magic Johnson better than Larry Bird (that always makes Celtic fans cringe!)?


[B][U]Wilt vs. Magic Johnson:[/U][/B] I'll take Oscar Robertson over Magic, simply because he can do more things, and I already have Wilt ahead of Oscar. Both are excellent at running teams, but Oscar never had the luxury of playing on teams as deep in talent as the 1980s Lakers. Wilt could score, rebound, and defend better than Magic. Magic could throw more assists, but Wilt led the league in assists, and Magic never came close to leading the league in rebounds. Wilt was also a superior defender.

For those who try to say that rings are things (see Russell), I ask: how many championships did Magic win without a hall of fame center? Was Jordan's Bulls clearly better than Magic's Lakers in 1991, or do you think the injuries to James Worthy and Byron Scott contributed? Do you believe that Mark Aguirre was better than James Worthy in 1989, since his team won the championship? And what about "Tragic Magic" in the 1984 finals?



[B][U]Wilt vs. Larry Bird:[/U][/B] Once again, Wilt reigns over Bird because Wilt was simply more dominating. Larry Bird wasn't nearly the defender that Wilt was. While Larry was crafty on defense, he didn't have the ability to dominate a game on the defensive end. Unless they are going to have a free-throw contest, Wilt is going to dominate nearly every category, even passing, as Bird never led the league in assists.



[B][U]Wilt vs. Michael Jordan:[/U][/B] Once more, Wilt is simply more dominating. While Jordan fans are quick to point out Wilt's flaw (free throws), I can equally point out that Jordan was not that great of a 3 point shooter, unless the line is moved in (the league's attempt to help inferior players score more).

Jordan averaged 1 asst/game more than Wilt during his career, and this is while he has been enjoying the luxury of looser rules governing assists. Had the rulebook been the same back then as it now, governing assists, this number would be even.

Jordan's took more shots than Wilt, yet both averaged 30.1 ppg during their careers. As far as who was the better scorer, there is no question: During Wilt's first 7 years, he scored like no man in history. Jordan never had a 70+ point game. Wilt had 4. Jordan never averaged 38+ ppg for a season. Wilt did it 3 times. I've seen Jordan make ridiculous claims that Wilt was another Shaq, yet Jordan flaunts his ignorance. Wilt came into the league with a jump shot and used the finger-roll and fade-away as go-to moves, whereas Shaq has never developed these shots and spent years with a very raw offensive game made up of dunks. Wilt was stronger than Shaq, a better leaper, and far more schooled in the fundamentals. Furthermore, Cavs GM Wayne Embry disagrees with Jordan. He says Wilt would have no problems against today's defenses. Nearly every rules change has been made to help the defense. Against these rules, Wilt would clearly dominate.

Jordan was also much more selfish. When Wilt's coaches asked him to score, he did. When they asked him to sacrificed his scoring titles, he did. Jordan fought any attempt to cut back his shot attempts. Read about Jordan's spats with Phil Jackson. Read about how he put down Tex Winter and the triangle! Even his own teammate Horace Grant said that Jordan cared more about his points than the team. If Wilt had that selfish attitude, there is no telling how many more points he would have. Also, if you take Wilt's scoring through the same number of career games, his scoring average is higher.

Wilt is a vastly superior rebounder, and while Jordan fans will point out that "Wilt should have more, since he is a center", I counter that Jordan should have a lot more assists, since he is a guard, but the numbers do not support him. Wilt is one of the greatest passers ever at center, but Jordan isn't as dominating at his position with respect to rebounds (Oscar and Magic, for instance, are both better rebounders). And while Jordan does have more 1st team all defensive selections, keep in mind that #1) the team wasn't created until Wilt's 10th year in the league and #2) Only one center is selected vs. 2 guards. If Jordan were the greatest defensive guard ever, there would be a point, but as long as Walt Frazier is remembered, Jordan could never be better than #2.

Jordan has also received the benefit of rules changes that have been implemented to help offensive players, such as well-defined rules concerning zones, rules against hand checking, and flagrant fouls. He's been spoiled by the luxuries given to the modern player, such as chartered planes, first class hotels, superior athletic shoes, and modern sports medicine (and he still hasn't approached Wilt's minutes per game!). Jordan has benefited from the joke that has become NBA officiating, in which superstars receive preferential treatment, and Jordan has probably received more than any player in history. The steps and the fouls he gets away with are ridiculous!

Consider also that Jordan benefited from the dilution of talent in the 1990s that came from expansion, giving him inferior talent to play against, compared to the 1980s. It is no coincidence that Jordan's teammate, Dennis Rodman, said that the 1996 Bulls could not have won 70 games playing against 1980s teams. While Jordan has many accomplishments, they cannot compare to Wilt's, and while the press and the Jordan radicals try to rationalize Wilt's numbers, as you can see, it's equally easy to rationalize Jordan's, and when it comes down to it, Wilt is still the most dominating player in history, and Jordan has never came close to threatening Wilt's 100 point game or 50.4 PPG average, and scoring is supposed to be Jordan's specialty, let alone Wilt's 8.6 APG in a season, or his rebounding numbers, or his 72.7% field goal percentage.

Finally, consider each player's ability to carry a team. Wilt came into the league and carried a bad team to immediate contention. He took the 1962 Warriors, not a great team, to the 7th game of the conference finals, where they lost by 2 points on a controversial call, to the champion Celtics. Jordan, on the other hand, came into the league and joined a losing team and after 3 years, they were STILL a losing team. He was 1-9 in the playoffs and posted 3 consecutive losing seasons. The truth is, Jordan played 5 seasons without Scottie Pippen and in each of those 5 seasons, he could not win more games than he lost, and in the final 2 years, he failed to get Washington to the playoffs. Yes, he was older than Wilt when Wilt retired, but Wilt played MANY more minutes, because Jordan retired 3 times. The fact is, without great teammates, Jordan was a loser. Wilt, on the other hand, could carry a poor team much farther than Jordan, showing just how much more dominant he was.
[/I]

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln]Thou has some nerve, for not only be it arguable that Chamberlain is not the best, but now it is being narrowed down to not even the best center? :roll:

[I][B][U]Wilt vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar:[/U][/B] Wilt simply was a more dominant player. He could pour on the offense to higher degrees than Kareem. Wilt is the greatest rebounder in history, and Kareem was a weak rebounder for his size. Wilt was a better passer, and I believe, a better defender. When Wilt was in his final 2 years, which corresponded with Kareem's 3rd and 4th year, Wilt was still making the first team all-defense over Kareem. None of this is a bag on Kareem, because I do believe Kareem is one of the 3 greatest centers in history, but he simply was no Wilt.

Some will try to bring up rings. This is a silly argument, since rings are a team achievement, but still, consider that during Kareem's first 10 years, he won 1 ring, and made the finals 3 times. When Wilt did this, fools call it "choking", but Kareem "didn't have the teammates." Frankly, if Kareem didn't have one of the 2 greatest point guards in history (Oscar Robertson or Magic Johnson), then his teams did extremely poorly. In 1975 and 1976, Kareem led them to losing records. In 1977, they were higher-seeded and got swept by Bill Walton's Traiblazers. In 1978, they were finished 4th place in the 5 team Pacific Division. In 1979, they finished 3rd in the 6th team Pacific Division. Did he have teammates? Well, in 1979, he had Norm Nixon, Adrian Dantley, and Jamaal Wilkes. Is that talent? So in the 5 seasons without Magic and Oscar, they won only 1 division title, and never won a game past the conference semi-finals. In 1980, Magic Johnson joined the Lakers, and they started winning titles. When Kareem retired in 1989, the Lakers replaced him with Vlade Divac and won 6 MORE games. Food for thought.

So did Kareem win titles? No. The Lakers (and Bucks) won titles. One man teams do not win titles.

Kareem did play longer, but does this make Robert Parish better than Kareem? No. Also, Kareem played less minutes than Wilt. Who couldn't play more games when they are pacing themselves? Kareem played 20 seasons to Wilt's 14. However, if you take Wilt's min/game and turn them into the number of games Kareem played, Wilt played the equivalent of 18 seasons! And consider, in Wilt's final season, he set a record for field goal percentage (72.7%), led the league in rebounds, and was first team all-defense (over Kareem). Wilt retired while he was still a star in the league. When Kareem retired, he wasn't even beating out backup Mychal Thompson in minutes. Kareem was a starter by title-only. He also hacked off Lakers' GM Jerry West by coming to work out of shape, and giving what was considered a half-hearted effort. You can read about this in Kareem's book Kareem. You can also read Kareem try to justify his poor work habit.

So once you slice through the superficial rhetoric, it comes down to who was the most dominant player and the answer was Wilt. He could fill any role on a team. Kareem could not. If you needed someone to focus on defense and clean the glass, Kareem couldn't do it.


[B][U]Wilt vs. Bill Russell:[/U][/B] Wilt. No iffs ands or butts. Russell's offensive game was very limited. According to Russell, himself, Wilt could do Russell's role better than Russell, "Wilt is playing better than I used to -- passing off, coming out to set up screens, picking up guys outside, and sacrificing himself for team play." (Great Moments in Pro Basketball, by Sam Goldaper, p.24) Russell said this while he was player-coach of the Celtics. Russell could not fulfill as many roles as Wilt, especially if he had to be first option on offense. While some of Russell's teammates try to belittle Wilt by saying if Wilt were a Celtic, they would have won a few titles, but not as many, I have yet to see anybody step forward and say that Russell could have led the Warriors to the title.

For those who say rings are the thing and want to judge a player based on what 12 players do, I ask: is Dennis Rodman better than Karl Malone? Sam Jones better than Michael Jordan? Luc Longley better than Patrick Ewing? Magic Johnson better than Larry Bird (that always makes Celtic fans cringe!)?


[B][U]Wilt vs. Magic Johnson:[/U][/B] I'll take Oscar Robertson over Magic, simply because he can do more things, and I already have Wilt ahead of Oscar. Both are excellent at running teams, but Oscar never had the luxury of playing on teams as deep in talent as the 1980s Lakers. Wilt could score, rebound, and defend better than Magic. Magic could throw more assists, but Wilt led the league in assists, and Magic never came close to leading the league in rebounds. Wilt was also a superior defender.

For those who try to say that rings are things (see Russell), I ask: how many championships did Magic win without a hall of fame center? Was Jordan's Bulls clearly better than Magic's Lakers in 1991, or do you think the injuries to James Worthy and Byron Scott contributed? Do you believe that Mark Aguirre was better than James Worthy in 1989, since his team won the championship? And what about "Tragic Magic" in the 1984 finals?



[B][U]Wilt vs. Larry Bird:[/U][/B] Once again, Wilt reigns over Bird because Wilt was simply more dominating. Larry Bird wasn't nearly the defender that Wilt was. While Larry was crafty on defense, he didn't have the ability to dominate a game on the defensive end. Unless they are going to have a free-throw contest, Wilt is going to dominate nearly every category, even passing, as Bird never led the league in assists.



[B][U]Wilt vs. Michael Jordan:[/U][/B] Once more, Wilt is simply more dominating. While Jordan fans are quick to point out Wilt's flaw (free throws), I can equally point out that Jordan was not that great of a 3 point shooter, unless the line is moved in (the league's attempt to help inferior players score more).

Jordan averaged 1 asst/game more than Wilt during his career, and this is while he has been enjoying the luxury of looser rules governing assists. Had the rulebook been the same back then as it now, governing assists, this number would be even.

Jordan's took more shots than Wilt, yet both averaged 30.1 ppg during their careers. As far as who was the better scorer, there is no question: During Wilt's first 7 years, he scored like no man in history. Jordan never had a 70+ point game. Wilt had 4. Jordan never averaged 38+ ppg for a season. Wilt did it 3 times. I've seen Jordan make ridiculous claims that Wilt was another Shaq, yet Jordan flaunts his ignorance. Wilt came into the league with a jump shot and used the finger-roll and fade-away as go-to moves, whereas Shaq has never developed these shots and spent years with a very raw offensive game made up of dunks. Wilt was stronger than Shaq, a better leaper, and far more schooled in the fundamentals. Furthermore, Cavs GM Wayne Embry disagrees with Jordan. He says Wilt would have no problems against today's defenses. Nearly every rules change has been made to help the defense. Against these rules, Wilt would clearly dominate.

Jordan was also much more selfish. When Wilt's coaches asked him to score, he did. When they asked him to sacrificed his scoring titles, he did. Jordan fought any attempt to cut back his shot attempts. Read about Jordan's spats with Phil Jackson. Read about how he put down Tex Winter and the triangle! Even his own teammate Horace Grant said that Jordan cared more about his points than the team. If Wilt had that selfish attitude, there is no telling how many more points he would have. Also, if you take Wilt's scoring through the same number of career games, his scoring average is higher.

Wilt is a vastly superior rebounder, and while Jordan fans will point out that "Wilt should have more, since he is a center", I counter that Jordan should have a lot more assists, since he is a guard, but the numbers do not support him. Wilt is one of the greatest passers ever at center, but Jordan isn't as dominating at his position with respect to rebounds (Oscar and Magic, for instance, are both better rebounders). And while Jordan does have more 1st team all defensive selections, keep in mind that #1) the team wasn't created until Wilt's 10th year in the league and #2) Only one center is selected vs. 2 guards. If Jordan were the greatest defensive guard ever, there would be a point, but as long as Walt Frazier is remembered, Jordan could never be better than #2.

Jordan has also received the benefit of rules changes that have been implemented to help offensive players, such as well-defined rules concerning zones, rules against hand checking, and flagrant fouls. He's been spoiled by the luxuries given to the modern player, such as chartered planes, first class hotels, superior athletic shoes, and modern sports medicine (and he still hasn't approached Wilt's minutes per game!). Jordan has benefited from the joke that has become NBA officiating, in which superstars receive preferential treatment, and Jordan has probably received more than any player in history. The steps and the fouls he gets away with are ridiculous!

Consider also that Jordan benefited from the dilution of talent in the 1990s that came from expansion, giving him inferior talent to play against, compared to the 1980s. It is no coincidence that Jordan's teammate, Dennis Rodman, said that the 1996 Bulls could not have won 70 games playing against 1980s teams. While Jordan has many accomplishments, they cannot compare to Wilt's, and while the press and the Jordan radicals try to rationalize Wilt's numbers, as you can see, it's equally easy to rationalize Jordan's, and when it comes down to it, Wilt is still the most dominating player in history, and Jordan has never came close to threatening Wilt's 100 point game or 50.4 PPG average, and scoring is supposed to be Jordan's specialty, let alone Wilt's 8.6 APG in a season, or his rebounding numbers, or his 72.7% field goal percentage.

Finally, consider each player's ability to carry a team. Wilt came into the league and carried a bad team to immediate contention. He took the 1962 Warriors, not a great team, to the 7th game of the conference finals, where they lost by 2 points on a controversial call, to the champion Celtics. Jordan, on the other hand, came into the league and joined a losing team and after 3 years, they were STILL a losing team. He was 1-9 in the playoffs and posted 3 consecutive losing seasons. The truth is, Jordan played 5 seasons without Scottie Pippen and in each of those 5 seasons, he could not win more games than he lost, and in the final 2 years, he failed to get Washington to the playoffs. Yes, he was older than Wilt when Wilt retired, but Wilt played MANY more minutes, because Jordan retired 3 times. The fact is, without great teammates, Jordan was a loser. Wilt, on the other hand, could carry a poor team much farther than Jordan, showing just how much more dominant he was.
[/I][/QUOTE]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

I don't agree with Wilt being better than KAJ and MJ...But Im sold on Abe being a Wilt Fan...I guess I apologize for thinking otherwise...

[QUOTE=branslowski]:applause: :applause: :applause:

I don't agree with Wilt being better than KAJ and MJ...But Im sold on Abe being a Wilt Fan...I guess I apologize for thinking otherwise...[/QUOTE]


Real talk though Abe, You > fatal as a poster :D

gone through all pats on here
[B]branslowski[/B]
is the voice of wisdom

[QUOTE=Jacks3]I love the Jordan stans getting their panties in a bunch and bringing up Kobe in a thread that has nothing to do with him.:oldlol:[/QUOTE]



Wrong Fatal wrote about kobe vs hakeem...