What is Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami's big 3 in the finals?

Barring the near impossible...I don't see Kobe surpassing Russell or MJ on any all-time list. IMHO, even two more rings would not be enough. Realistically I believe he could finish as high as #3...but even that is a stretch.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Barring the near impossible...I don't see Kobe surpassing Russell or MJ on any all-time list. IMHO, even two more rings would not be enough. Realistically I believe he could finish as high as #3...but even that is a stretch.[/QUOTE]


What does your top 10 All time list look like?

[QUOTE=jlauber]Barring the near impossible...I don't see Kobe surpassing Russell or MJ on any all-time list. IMHO, even two more rings would not be enough. Realistically I believe he could finish as high as #3...but even that is a stretch.[/QUOTE]

didn't you know that kobe is magical. he can shoot 21% more shots per game and maintain his fg% and winning.....

where are these extra 4 shots per game coming from? that is my question. are they coming from shaq and gasol and fisher? why does kobe average only 20 shots per game in the playoffs if he would be just as effective shooting 23?

have you ever seen kobe be shy about shooting? it just doesn't make any sense.

[QUOTE=Heilige]What does your top 10 All time list look like?[/QUOTE]

i'll bite:

1. jordan
2. russell
3. magic
4. kareem
5. wilt
6. duncan
7. shaq
8. bird
9. hakeem
10. kobe

[QUOTE=jlauber]Barring the near impossible...[B]I don't see Kobe surpassing Russell or MJ on any all-time list.[/B] IMHO, even two more rings would not be enough. Realistically I believe he could finish as high as #3...but even that is a stretch.[/QUOTE]

Didn't you initially have Kobe ranked higher than Jordan? :oldlol:

Ginobli....If Jordan shot the ball over 27 times pg for about 7 straight yrs and avg 49% shooting during that span...Then yes, I would assume BEING the num 1 option and taking that many shots, he would be able to do it over an entire career.

If every since Kobe's been shooting over 20 shots per game his fg% is at 45-46%...Then I assure you he would still shoot it if he avg over 20 shots for an entire career.


And I know as it shows right now...His fg shots per game at 19 and his fg% which is 45%...Draws you to an conclusion that his % would go down if the shots went up...But why dismiss the FACT that when his shots have been up over 20pg over the last 6 season that his fg% is at 46% throughout it?..It gives a clear indication that once he starts getting up shots, he can actually get in a groove and keep his fg% at 45-46%.

I know your stance on this player wont open your eyes and atleast intake this perspective, but c'mon dude.

[QUOTE=Heilige]What does your top 10 All time list look like?[/QUOTE]

Mine has changed some since I came to ISH. There are a number of quality posters here, and after reading their takes, and doing my own research, this is MY current list...

1. Russell
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Hakeem
10. Bird

Now, some will wonder why I have Wilt at #4 with "only" two rings. The fact was, Wilt was brilliant in the majority of his post-seasons. He had two teams, the 61-62 Warriors and the 64-65 Sixers that he almost carried to titles. He had three other teams that either came within a few points of winning it all (the '68 76ers and the '69 Lakers)...and the third was cheated out of a game in the Finals (game five of the '70 Finals.) So, Wilt came within an eye-lash of winning up to five more titles. Furthermore, Wilt either outplayed, or dominated his opposing centers in virtually every post-season.

Those that claim that Wilt was a "choker" or a "failure" obviously have NO CLUE about his play in the post-season. Russell was a "winner" and a "clutch" player, to be sure...but H2H, at BEST, he neutralized Wilt just enough for his TEAM's to win. Had Wilt put up a 4-3 game seven and been outscored and outrebounded by 21-24, then I would say that he was a choker. But, he put up the 21-24 game, basically on one leg, against Reed's 4-3 game in that game seven of the '70 Finals (yes, Reed was on one leg too...and only played a half.) Or how about Wilt's game seven in the 65 ECF's? He took a 40-40 team to a game seven, one-point loss against the 62-18 Celtics, and in the process he outscored Russell (who admittedly played well), 30-15, outshot Russell, 12-15 to 7-16, and outrebounded Russell, 32-29. I could list MANY more BIG games that Chamberlain had in his post-season career, but I won't bother now. Needless to say, though, that...(A), he faced a HOF center in 112 of his 160 post-season games,...and (B), his teams were outgunned by HOFers in EVERY post-season he played. BTW, his CAREER game seven numbers, in NINE games? 24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and .626 shooting.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Ginobli....If Jordan shot the ball over 27 times pg for about 7 straight yrs and avg 49% shooting during that span...Then yes, I would assume BEING the num 1 option and taking that many shots, he would be able to do it over an entire career.

If every since Kobe's been shooting over 20 shots per game his fg% is at 45-46%...Then I assure you he would still shoot it if he avg over 20 shots for an entire career.


And I know as it shows right now...His fg shots per game at 19 and his fg% which is 45%...Draws you to an conclusion that his % would go down if the shots went up...But why dismiss the FACT that when his shots have been up over 20pg over the last 6 season that his fg% is at 46% throughout it?..It gives a clear indication that once he starts getting up shots, he can actually get in a groove and keep his fg% at 45-46%.

I know your stance on this player wont open your eyes and atleast intake this perspective, but c'mon dude.[/QUOTE]


why is this so hard to understand. we are talking about [B]23[/B] shots per game. kobe has only shot over this number twice...not 7 times. so i have no idea what you are talking about. i have already stated this "if we are just talking about kobe's last 6 years or his prime....i think he could shoot right at his current career fg%"....i totally agree with you on that

here is your problem:

what about kobe's first 4 years? do you realize how many more shots he would have had to take during that time? during his first 8 years.....where are these extra 4 shots coming from?

here are the years that kobe would have had no chance to take 23 or more shots and shoot 45.5%

97
98
99
00
04
05

that is 6 years of his career. also....you keep referencing 20 shots. we are talking about 23 shots. this is a huge difference.....

and again...the initial debate was not only about shot volume but was about maintaining winning as well. so again.....how are the lakers going to win the first title in 00 with kobe shooting close to 25% more shots? it just does not compute.

and if kobe did not take any more shots early on and back loaded them all late in his career....he would be averaging around 29 or 30 shots per game. and there is no way in hell he could maintain his fg% or win while shooting so much.

sorry....i think its very fair to say an increase of 21% more shots per game for his career would result in at least a 2% drop in fg%.

side note. kobe's three highest shooting attempts per game of his career resulted in two first round exits and a 2nd round exit. not counting an injury plagued 05 season and his first 2 years. those years are the worst three years (success wise) of kobe's career.

:lol

At the moment...I really dont feel like debating ppl's player Rankings..

But lol Jblur...Russel over Jordan??...Bird at 10?...Magic that high ahead of Bird?...

[QUOTE=branslowski]:lol

At the moment...I really dont feel like debating ppl's player Rankings..

But lol Jblur...Russel over Jordan??...Bird at 10?...Magic that high ahead of Bird?...[/QUOTE]

What is so drastically wrong about Russell over Jordan? I mean yeah, I have Jordan over Russell, but I see nothing wrong with having it the other way around. It is, after all, an OPINION.

Ginobli...I do understand where your coming from..And I wasn't talking about Kobe with an career of 29 shots pg....I was more talking about him being at 23...And I def think he would still be at 46% shooting.

It isn't like 46% shooting on 23 shots would be some insane number for Kobe..


Anyway...I really dislike debating "If" factors...Things that wont happen or didn't happen...Hypothetical opinions and such...


In the end...Kobe leading his team to 3 straight Finals shooting over 20 shots pg is just alright with me..:cheers:

[QUOTE=Poochymama]What is so drastically wrong about Russell over Jordan? I mean yeah, I have Jordan over Russell, but I see nothing wrong with having it the other way around. It is, after all, an OPINION.[/QUOTE]

IDK...Im prob really Bias against the 60's...Cause I don't think too highley of Wilt or Russel...I watched some games of theirs on youtube, ESPN Classics, NBATV, exc...Just not feeling the epic competition they had...Not fair, I know, but still...

I eliminate myself from Russel/Wilt convo's.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Ginobli...I do understand where your coming from..And I wasn't talking about Kobe with an career of 29 shots pg....I was more talking about him being at 23...And I def think he would still be at 46% shooting.

It isn't like 46% shooting on 23 shots would be some insane number for Kobe..


Anyway...I really dislike debating "If" factors...Things that wont happen or didn't happen...Hypothetical opinions and such...


In the end...Kobe leading his team to 3 straight Finals shooting over 20 shots pg is just alright with me..:cheers:[/QUOTE]

and that is fine. i don't really understand where you are coming from because there are just as many years where the evidence supports my side.

the main problem i have with your argument is that you think all shots would be the same quality. and that could not be further from the truth. at some point (in terms of an entire career)....just lumping on 21% more shots is going to result in a higher number of those added shots being of bad quality.

that is our big difference. where are these shots coming from? kobe would have to take at least 2 more bad shots per game to get to 23 for his career. and also....i think your numbers are way off. kobe has only shot over 21 shots per game 5 times in his career. he's only shot 23 or more twice in his career. that just isn't enough evidence to support you at all.

i simply don't think any player could take that many more shots per game and maintain efficiency levels....especially players that already shoot the ball around 20 times a game.

i'm out. i respect your opinions....but i really think you are way off on this one.

[QUOTE=branslowski]IDK...Im prob really Bias against the 60's...Cause I don't think too highley of Wilt or Russel...I watched some games of theirs on youtube, ESPN Classics, NBATV, exc...Just not feeling the epic competition they had...Not fair, I know, but still...

I eliminate myself from Russel/Wilt convo's.[/QUOTE]


Overall, I would say the athleticism/skill of the average player back then was a notch below the players of today, but don't confuse that with the athleticism/skill of the elite players back then, which IMO hasn't really changed at all.

[QUOTE=Poochymama]Overall, I would say the athleticism/skill of the average player back then was a notch below the players of today, but don't confuse that with the athleticism/skill of the elite players back then, which IMO hasn't really changed at all.[/QUOTE]

Agreed...But while watching it...I just can't help but to say to myself..."Man, Wilt is dominating these slow unathletic f*cks...Man, LeBron would dunk on these lames all day...LeBron would prob avg 50ppg 15reb 17ast against these guy's"....Which is totally wrong of me, but...