Defense vs. Offense

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Again, this is my problem with breaking down players like this. The true value of a player can often be lost...or weakened....or some can be over-rated.

Until we realize that some aspects of basketball are more valuable than others, we'll be stuck in this weird area in which you can argue on paper that Pippen is better than Magic or that KG was easily better than Barkley/Dirk. A lot is lost in those breakdowns. Just my opinion though.[/QUOTE]
But its not that simple. Look at the magiic and pippen conversation we had. Honestly, what makes magic a better basketball player than pippen? Let's look at their attributes. They scored about the same even though magic did it in an era that was much more scorer friendly and played in a fast break offense. They rebounded about the same. Pippen was a better athlete. Magics jumpshot was no less or more than pippens. Id even say pippens post game was a little better than johnsons. So what it comes down to is magics passing vs. Pippens defense. We both agree magic was nowhere near the defender pippen was. You even admitted magic was a bad defender and pippen may be the best ever. And while magic is obviously the better passer, pippen was no slouch in that department either. On the dreamteam, pippen led that team in assists not magic. A lot of people feel the assist is the most overrated stat kept in basketball. And some pllayers like oscar robinson, feel that a lot of magics assists wouldn't be counted as assists back in their day. And he was passing to a bunch of players that could fill it up.

So it comes down to accomplishments and the fact that magic led his teams to 5 championships, and he won 3 mvps. Something pippen has no control over cuz his prime and jordans prime coincided with each others. And I just feel you can't fault players for the roles they're put in. But by the same token, magic is and should definately be ranked higher than pippen because magic did accomplish more than pippen did. No matter what the circumstance.

Its like in football. Bo jackson and emmit smith. Who's ranked higher? Smith. He has the ruching title, he has the mvp, the championships etc. But if you were to ask me who the better tailback was? It jackson. Even though he didn't accomoplish nearly the amount of stuff smith did. There's no doubt in my mind that if he didn't split time between baseball and football, and had the samt caliber talent built around him that smith had, and didn't have his career cut short by that injury, he'd probably be the best tailback ever.

[QUOTE=tpols]Not at all..

You were criticizing one of the posters you were arguing with before for using Bill Russel as an example of defense trumping offense.. because he was the only true example of a defensive superstar who had a GOAT level impact.

But then you turn around and use the only offensive player of all time[who didnt really play defense] who had a GOAT level impact by constantly referencing Magic Johnson. You're doing the very same thing you called others out on. Magic Johnson is the only player in anyone's top ten that didn't play any defense. So you're being a hypocrite here.

And with regards to bringing up Pippen versus Magic the comparison still works out perfectly if you break it down into parts. You have:

Offensive Impact
Defensive Impact
Intangibles[which include ability to motivate/lead, clutch ability, etc]

Magic DESTROYS Pippen in two of those categories.. which is why he's considered a much better player.

In regards to Mourning versus Barkley, Barkley beats Mourning by a fair amount offensively and defensively the gap isn't as large between the two because of Barkley's monster rebounding. Simply put, Barkley's gap in offense is bigger than his gap in defense in comparison to Mourning. Barkley actually had better intangibles too.. better in the clutch.. less of a headcase[didn't get rattled]. So thats two categories he beats Mourning in out of three. The only thing Mourning did better than Barkley was play defense not including rebounding.:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Good post.

Hakeem vs. Magic from a skills perspective just isn't debatable to me. From the games and footage I've watched, I really don't see how it is. Magic being the better overall player though..isn't something to scoff at either. When we start breaking down intangibles, no matter how difficult it is to quantify them, they [I]need[/I] to be part of the comparison.

[QUOTE=tpols]Not at all..

You were criticizing one of the posters you were arguing with before for using Bill Russel as an example of defense trumping offense.. because he was the only true example of a defensive superstar who had a GOAT level impact.

But then you turn around and use the only offensive player of all time[who didnt really play defense] who had a GOAT level impact by constantly referencing Magic Johnson. You're doing the very same thing you called others out on. Magic Johnson is the only player in anyone's top ten that didn't play any defense. So you're being a hypocrite here.

And with regards to bringing up Pippen versus Magic the comparison still works out perfectly if you break it down into parts. You have:

Offensive Impact
Defensive Impact
Intangibles[which include ability to motivate/lead, clutch ability, etc]

Magic DESTROYS Pippen in two of those categories.. which is why he's considered a much better player.

In regards to Mourning versus Barkley, Barkley beats Mourning by a fair amount offensively and defensively the gap isn't as large between the two because of Barkley's monster rebounding. Simply put, Barkley's gap in offense is bigger than his gap in defense in comparison to Mourning. Barkley actually had better intangibles too.. better in the clutch.. less of a headcase[didn't get rattled]. So thats two categories he beats Mourning in out of three. The only thing Mourning did better than Barkley was play defense not including rebounding.:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
I was with all the way up until you said magic detroys pippen in the intangibles/clutch area. Pippen has had his share of big games as well as clutch moments. Along with his share of flounders. The same aplies for magic. It just comes down to magic had ample opportunities where as pippen didn't.


As far as mourning/barkley. Barkley was just as much a malcontent as mourning was a headcase. And the only player that really brought that out of mourning was rodman.

But the rest off your post is spot on. There really very few players that are in the top 50 that weren't really two way players.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]I was with all the way up until you said magic detroys pippen in the intangibles/clutch area. Pippen has had his share of big games as well as clutch moments. Along with his share of flounders. The same aplies for magic. It just comes down to magic had ample opportunities where as pippen didn't.
[/QUOTE]
We cant start subbing in hypotheticals here.. both Magic and Pippen played on great teams capable of winning titles. Both were very successful. But Magic had many more dominant playoff runs than Pippen and many more clutch moments. He was also a much better leader and motivator.. he talked better and had a more colorful personality. Bullshit on pippen didn't have a chance. Pippen played on title contenders his whole career and never took over to the extent Magic did[and dont give me the MJ excuse because Magic came onto a team with a still prime Kareem and bested him].

Magic Johnson had better intangibles than Scottie Pippen. He was one of the biggest personalities and best talkers the NBA has ever seen.. and his character completely translated onto the court.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]
As far as mourning/barkley. Barkley was just as much a malcontent as mourning was a headcase. And the only player that really brought that out of mourning was rodman. [/QUOTE]

Both were emotional players.. you're right. But Barkley was undoubtedly the better take over player and he was better at carrying teams/playing in the clutch. He was a better intangibles player.

[QUOTE=tpols]We cant start subbing in hypotheticals here.. both Magic and Pippen played on great teams capable of winning titles. Both were very successful. But Magic had many more dominant playoff runs than Pippen and many more clutch moments. He was also a much better leader and motivator.. he talked better and had a more colorful personality. Bullshit on pippen didn't have a chance. Pippen played on title contenders his whole career and never took over to the extent Magic did[and dont give me the MJ excuse because Magic came onto a team with a still prime Kareem and bested him].

Magic Johnson had better intangibles than Scottie Pippen. He was one of the biggest personalities and best talkers the NBA has ever seen.. and his character completely translated onto the court.



Both were emotional players.. you're right. But Barkley was undoubtedly the better take over player and he was better at carrying teams/playing in the clutch. He was a better intangibles player.[/QUOTE]
Magic was definately much more charismatic than pippen ever could've been. But I've had this conversation before. When you say magic had more dominant playoff runs, in what context are you referring to? Statictically? Kinda hard to say that because of the era that magic played in. Taking over games? Magic johnson best playoff game came in his rookie year. Not saying he didn't have some amazing playoff runs but so did pippen. And while its true magic did play with kareem, that wasn't kareem of the 70s. Kareem was in his late 30s when magic became the best player on that team. Pippens prime unfortunately for him happened at the same time jordan had his.

Now you can call it fantasy, conjecture, what if? etc. But your comparing two players that didn't play under the same circumstances. And its funny, cuz this only happens with basketball fans. Boxing fans realize that while mike tyson was probably the most dominant heavy weight ever, he didn't really fight anyone of significance. And thus isn't ranked ahead of ali. Not to mention the pound for pound best fighter which takes into consideration the size of a boxer.

Its widely understood that if barry sanders had emmit smiths line and recievers that he would've obliterated the rushing record book.

Your typical good reciever nowadays catches about 90 balls a year. But we know jerry rice is still the greatest ever. The nfl is just a passing league now.

Why is it so hard to acknowledge the circumstances of basketball players?

[QUOTE=tpols]Not at all..

You were criticizing one of the posters you were arguing with before for using Bill Russel as an example of defense trumping offense.. because he was the only true example of a defensive superstar who had a GOAT level impact.

But then you turn around and use the only offensive player of all time[who didnt really play defense] who had a GOAT level impact by constantly referencing Magic Johnson. You're doing the very same thing you called others out on. Magic Johnson is the only player in anyone's top ten that didn't play any defense. So you're being a hypocrite here.

And with regards to bringing up Pippen versus Magic the comparison still works out perfectly if you break it down into parts. You have:

Offensive Impact
Defensive Impact
Intangibles[which include ability to motivate/lead, clutch ability, etc]

Magic DESTROYS Pippen in two of those categories.. which is why he's considered a much better player.

In regards to Mourning versus Barkley, Barkley beats Mourning by a fair amount offensively and defensively the gap isn't as large between the two because of Barkley's monster rebounding. Simply put, Barkley's gap in offense is bigger than his gap in defense in comparison to Mourning. Barkley actually had better intangibles too.. better in the clutch.. less of a headcase[didn't get rattled]. So thats two categories he beats Mourning in out of three. The only thing Mourning did better than Barkley was play defense not including rebounding.:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Not true. That is merely one of my examples. I have listed about 10 others. He can only list one player. And he listed Hakeem. A top ten player ever....absolutely should be compared to an elite player of all time like a magic or bird...or even shaq if you want to get realistic.

Doesn't have to be just magic. I could use Bird as well for that comparison. Or even Jerry West......West vs Hakeem is totally debatable. Which once again proves that individual offense is more important than defense. Nobody would laugh at someone saying jerry west was close to or better than hakeem....or oscar for that matter. All debatable.

I can rattle off a ton of players that fit this...he can only list the GOAT defensive player that played 50 years ago.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]But its not that simple. Look at the magiic and pippen conversation we had. Honestly, what makes magic a better basketball player than pippen? Let's look at their attributes. They scored about the same even though magic did it in an era that was much more scorer friendly and played in a fast break offense. They rebounded about the same. Pippen was a better athlete. Magics jumpshot was no less or more than pippens. Id even say pippens post game was a little better than johnsons. So what it comes down to is magics passing vs. Pippens defense. We both agree magic was nowhere near the defender pippen was. You even admitted magic was a bad defender and pippen may be the best ever. And while magic is obviously the better passer, pippen was no slouch in that department either. On the dreamteam, pippen led that team in assists not magic. A lot of people feel the assist is the most overrated stat kept in basketball. And some pllayers like oscar robinson, feel that a lot of magics assists wouldn't be counted as assists back in their day. And he was passing to a bunch of players that could fill it up.

So it comes down to accomplishments and the fact that magic led his teams to 5 championships, and he won 3 mvps. Something pippen has no control over cuz his prime and jordans prime coincided with each others. And I just feel you can't fault players for the roles they're put in. But by the same token, magic is and should definately be ranked higher than pippen because magic did accomplish more than pippen did. No matter what the circumstance.

Its like in football. Bo jackson and emmit smith. Who's ranked higher? Smith. He has the ruching title, he has the mvp, the championships etc. But if you were to ask me who the better tailback was? It jackson. Even though he didn't accomoplish nearly the amount of stuff smith did. There's no doubt in my mind that if he didn't split time between baseball and football, and had the samt caliber talent built around him that smith had, and didn't have his career cut short by that injury, he'd probably be the best tailback ever.[/QUOTE]

I'm not talking about rankings. I'm talking solely about who I thought the better basketball players were.

I'd take both Magic and Bird quite easily over Hakeem. No doubt Hakeem played significantly better defense. I'd take Shaq over Hakeem as well...quite easily....Hakeem played significantly better defense.

I'd take Barkley over Mourning...easily. I'd take Barkley over David Robinson...although that is close. I'd take Dirk over both of those guys as well.

I'd take thomas and bird and magic and barkley and dirk and west and baylor and a whole host of other players like wade and kobe over pippen...a player in pippen that was probably the best and most complete perimeter defender ever.....along with a very skilled offensive force.

I'd take Barkley and Dirk over Ewing.

I'd take Nash over Payton....close though. But the fact that its close is more evidence that supports my side. How could it be close if defense matters more? Payton is one of the best pg defenders ever...Nash is one of the worst. How could it be close if defense matters more?

i'd take dirk currently over dwight howard. if individual defense matters more...howard should easily be the better player. he's simply not if you are being at all honest with yourself.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Not true. That is merely one of my examples. I have listed about 10 others. He can only list one player. And he listed Hakeem. A top ten player ever....absolutely should be compared to an elite player of all time like a magic or bird...or even shaq if you want to get realistic.

Doesn't have to be just magic. I could use Bird as well for that comparison. Or even Jerry West......West vs Hakeem is totally debatable. Which once again proves that individual offense is more important than defense. Nobody would laugh at someone saying jerry west was better than hakeem....or oscar for that matter. All debatable.

I can rattle off a ton of players that fit this...he can only list the GOAT defensive player that played 50 years ago.[/QUOTE]
Jerry west was known as a very good defender. Bird made the all defense 2nd team 3 times. Your only two players are magic and barkley.

I completely shut you down for 48 minutes.... you score 0 points...

You cant stop me from scoring at least 1 basket during those 48 minutes...

hence... Defense > Offense

:lol

nah.. but seriously.. Offense > Defense... a good defense can never stop a good offense...

if that good defensive team cant score... they can never win...

but.. if that good offensive team cant defend... they can still win... trading baskets if u may...

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm not talking about rankings. I'm talking solely about who I thought the better basketball players were.

I'd take both Magic and Bird quite easily over Hakeem. No doubt Hakeem played significantly better defense. I'd take Shaq over Hakeem as well...quite easily....Hakeem played significantly better defense.

I'd take Barkley over Mourning...easily. I'd take Barkley over David Robinson...although that is close. I'd take Dirk over both of those guys as well.

I'd take thomas and bird and magic and barkley and dirk and west and baylor and a whole host of other players like wade and kobe over pippen...a player in pippen that was probably the best and most complete perimeter defender ever.....along with a very skilled offensive force.

I'd take Barkley and Dirk over Ewing.

I'd take Nash over Payton....close though. But the fact that its close is more evidence that supports my side. How could it be close if defense matters more? Payton is one of the best pg defenders ever...Nash is one of the worst. How could it be close if defense matters more?

i'd take dirk currently over dwight howard. if individual defense matters more...howard should easily be the better player. he's simply not if you are being at all honest with yourself.[/QUOTE]
But again, what are you basing your picks on? Id assume winning. And as Catch24 said, that winning has a lot to do with them having the best team in the league.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Jerry west was known as a very good defender. Bird made the all defense 2nd team 3 times. Your only two players are magic and barkley.[/QUOTE]

very good is different from being an all time great defender like the people you are listing.....not to mention that these players you are listing also played great offense as well. especially the centers and pippen and payton. all high high high impact defenders.

guys like bird simply weren't forces defensively like that.

take hakeem vs bird. hakeem's defensive impact was huge....much greater than bird's. and he also was a beast offensively. and i'd take bird....quite easily.

i've given you so many examples and you just refuse them all.

dirk vs howard. nash vs payton. magic/bird/shaq vs hakeem. magic/bird/shaq vs duncan. barkley vs kg/pippen. pippen vs thomas. payton vs thomas. barkley/dirk vs robinson. i could go on and on.

if defense matters more, those defensive players above would simply be much better players.

only magic and barkley? hardly. sorry.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm not talking about rankings. I'm talking solely about who I thought the better basketball players were.

I'd take both Magic and Bird quite easily over Hakeem. No doubt Hakeem played significantly better defense. I'd take Shaq over Hakeem as well...quite easily....Hakeem played significantly better defense.

I'd take Barkley over Mourning...easily. I'd take Barkley over David Robinson...although that is close. I'd take Dirk over both of those guys as well.

I'd take thomas and bird and magic and barkley and dirk and west and baylor and a whole host of other players like wade and kobe over pippen...a player in pippen that was probably the best and most complete perimeter defender ever.....along with a very skilled offensive force.

I'd take Barkley and Dirk over Ewing.

I'd take Nash over Payton....close though. But the fact that its close is more evidence that supports my side. How could it be close if defense matters more? Payton is one of the best pg defenders ever...Nash is one of the worst. How could it be close if defense matters more?

i'd take dirk currently over dwight howard. if individual defense matters more...howard should easily be the better player. he's simply not if you are being at all honest with yourself.[/QUOTE]
good thing nobody really cares about who u would take because you're a phucking moron

[QUOTE=97 bulls]But again, what are you basing your picks on? Id assume winning. And as Catch24 said, that winning has a lot to do with them having the best team in the league.[/QUOTE]

I'm picking them on their ability to play basketball. My opinion of how good those players were.

Are you seriously questioning the validity of saying someone like Dirk or Barkley is better than Robinson or Howard?

Or magic/bird better than Duncan/Hakeem? Or Nash better than Payton. Wade better than Pippen?

I'd lean towards the offensive players in all of them...but at the very least they are debatable. Throw out "winning"....just in terms of being the better basketball player.

Its amazing how much of the true impact of all time great players is lost on here with these absurd breakdowns. I've got people telling me that they "can't see a reason" to say Magic was a better basketball player than Hakeem. I guess you guys feel the same way about Bird.

Kobe vs Hakeem is another absolutely debatable comparison in terms of ability to play. I go with Hakeem, but its not like Hakeem was twice as good or something.

[QUOTE=pauk]I completely shut you down for 48 minutes.... you score 0 points...

You cant stop me from scoring at least 1 basket during those 48 minutes...

hence... Defense > Offense

:lol

nah.. but seriously.. Offense > Defense... a good defense can never stop a good offense...

if that good defensive team cant score... they can never win...

but.. if that good offensive team cant defend... they can still win[/QUOTE]
Both are of equal importance. Maybe another way to put it is that it depends largely on what side of the ball your on.

Even in the clucth. I believe on 82games, the league avg for clutch baskets was in the low 40s. Meaning that the defense wins out more often than not.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm picking them on their ability to play basketball. My opinion of how good those players were.

Are you seriously questioning the validity of saying someone like Dirk or Barkley is better than Robinson or Howard?

Or magic/bird better than Duncan/Hakeem? Or Nash better than Payton. Wade better than Pippen?

I'd lean towards the offensive players in all of them...but at the very least they are debatable. Throw out "winning"....just in terms of being the better basketball player.

Its amazing how much of the true impact of all time great players is lost on here with these absurd breakdowns. I've got people telling me that they "can't see a reason" to say Magic was a better basketball player than Hakeem. I guess you guys feel the same way about Bird.

Kobe vs Hakeem is another absolutely debatable comparison in terms of ability to play. I go with Hakeem, but its not like Hakeem was twice as good or something.[/QUOTE]
Lol how can you throw out winning? You're basing your pov on the consensus ranking of these players. And the rankings are made according to who the best players are. It goes by who has accomplished the most in the nba. Who is the most decorated player. Who's won thee most championships, mvp, dpoys, allnba, alldenfense, the records, etc. All of which are handed out to the BEST PLAYER ON THE BEST TEAMS.

If the league gave the mvp to the best player, jordan would've won it every year from 87 to 98. Lebron james woulldve won it last year over derrick rose.