Magic Johnson vs Larry Bird. Year-by-Year.

Given their play in the post-season, I would give Magic an edge in the majority of their seasons in the league together. Furthermore, Magic could have scored considerably more had he been so inclined. Instead, he directed the most prolific offense of the 80's, with a devastating fast break that just torched the league. Hell, the '85 Lakers AVERAGED 126 ppg in the entire post-season. As great an offensive player as Kareem was, it was Magic that LED the Laker attack.

Having said, that, the fact that opinions on this subject are divided nearly down the middle is all we need to know. They were BOTH great, and they brought the NBA back from the decline that followed Wilt's retirement. (Yes, read Rosen's book on the '72 Lakers, and then take a look at where the NBA was by the 78-79 season.)

They were both among the greatest "winners" in NBA history, and are generally ranked pretty close to each other in all-time "rankings"...and that is as it should be. The two were tied together, just as Russell and Chamberlain were tied together.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Given their play in the post-season, I would give Magic an edge in the majority of their seasons in the league together. Furthermore, [B]Magic could have scored considerably more had he been so inclined[/B]. Instead, he directed the most prolific offense of the 80's, with a devastating fast break that just torched the league. Hell, the '85 Lakers AVERAGED 126 ppg in the entire post-season. As great an offensive player as Kareem was, it was Magic that LED the Laker attack.

Having said, that, the fact that opinions on this subject are divided nearly down the middle is all we need to know. They were BOTH great, and they brought the NBA back from the decline that followed Wilt's retirement. (Yes, read Rosen's book on the '72 Lakers, and then take a look at where the NBA was by the 78-79 season.)

They were both among the greatest "winners" in NBA history, and are generally ranked pretty close to each other in all-time "rankings"...and that is as it should be. The two were tied together, just as Russell and Chamberlain were tied together.[/QUOTE]

So too could Bird, really. He could score playing with or off the ball from pretty much anywhere on the floor. It came all too natural, and was within the team concept. You don't earn the title of 'Greatest Passing Forward' by being a selfish or limited player. He was just as good at setting up and feeding teammates as he was at dropping 30 or 40 on you.

[QUOTE=BlackVVaves]:applause:

I share these same thoughts, but for once didn't feel like creating a book long post, LoL.

Waiting for a rebuttal with actual evidence to combat this (Magic was the better player in 1982) from any of the posters who said/believe Bird was the better player that season.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Bird was already getting talk of being the best player of all time by '82. I don't agree with it at all, but he was better than Magic.

As I said, Moses Malone had a historically dominant '82 season which I covered here. [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272312"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272312[/URL]

And Bird, who struggled with injuries and even came off the bench for a significant stretch because of thst led Boston to 63 wins, was selected to the all-defensive second team and was still almost voted MVP.

Moses had 40 first place votes and 507 points overall, Bird had 20 first place votes and 456 points overall. Nobody else was close.

But outside of just listing accomplishments and playing paper basketball(which is the only type of case I've seen made for '82 Magic), Larry's skill set was just far above Magic's at that point. Their impact was closer than skill sets, but Larry's vastly superior half court game matters to me.

[QUOTE=juju151111]I said Magic tats were still good in 84 finals not that he outplayed him. The fact is Bird got outplayed twice. What did Bird do in 1982 then have a poor performance in the playoffs. Magic averaged a near triple double and then won finals MVP[/QUOTE]

I'm not really concerned with Magic's stats in the '84 finals, my claim was purely that Bird played better than him. Bird didn't have what I'd call bad stats in any of his finals vs the Lakers either.

Why do you keep repeating Magic's near triple double? It may seem more significant, and it's a cooler stat line, but it doesn't make you a better player.

Magic won a title, but that doesn't automatically make him better. The best player isn't always on a championship team. Moses Malone was the best player in '82, yet he lost in the first round best of 3 mini-series. Kareem was either the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league, right there with Bird.

We're not talking about '87-'91 Magic here, or '84-'86 Magic for that matter. We're talking about Magic in his 3rd year at 22 years old. A great player already, top 5 in the league, imo, but he still had a lot to add to his game.

You can list his near triple double all you want, but it doesn't mean as much to me as watching '82 Laker games and simply seeing that while he was great in transition, he wasn't a dominant half court player yet. That means a lot to me, and it's why watching the games will always help more than stats.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Yeah, Bird was already getting talk of being the best player of all time by '82. I don't agree with it at all, but he was better than Magic.

As I said, Moses Malone had a historically dominant '82 season which I covered here. [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272312"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272312[/URL]

And Bird, who struggled with injuries and even came off the bench for a significant stretch because of thst led Boston to 63 wins, was selected to the all-defensive second team and was still almost voted MVP.

Moses had 40 first place votes and 507 points overall, Bird had 20 first place votes and 456 points overall. Nobody else was close.

[B]But outside of just listing accomplishments and playing paper basketball(which is the only type of case I've seen made for '82 Magic), [/B]Larry's skill set was just far above Magic's at that point. Their impact was closer than skill sets, but Larry's vastly superior half court game matters to me.
[/QUOTE]

Who was the better playoff performer? Whose level of play went down considerably the bigger the games got their first four years? Whose level of play got better the bigger the games got their first 4 years? Who was the better clutch player til that point? You need paper for that? In 1982 the league was very excited about Bird looking like he was as ready, and when Magic got caught up in that coach mess the league needed somebody to concentrate on because it had definitely built up some momentum with Magic and Bird. Malone wasn't the man you could turn to - and Bird was ripe. Otherwise, Magic gets significantly more votes than he ended up with. Afterall, Magic was proven on the big stage. That MVP count was much like DH's last year - it wasn't about the play.

Bird did have a better skill set... until the playoffs hit. All of a sudden Magic shoots 100 percentage points better and even shoots a better FT percentage and they score an almost identical amount per game. Magic executes significantly better, shows better judgement of when to shoot or pass, and rebounds pretty much at the same clip. Who handled the ball better? Who passed better? Which player could play at two speeds? Whose team looked more organized under pressure? Who created more chaos for the other team?

Which player was affected by good defenses more? Which player found more ways to win?

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Yeah, Bird was already getting talk of being the best player of all time by '82. I don't agree with it at all, but he was better than Magic.

But outside of just listing accomplishments and playing paper basketball(which is the only type of case I've seen made for '82 Magic), Larry's skill set was just far above Magic's at that point. Their impact was closer than skill sets, but Larry's vastly superior half court game matters to me.[/QUOTE]

wow

what type of skillset produces

17/12/5 on .427 in 12 playoff games after avg

23/11/6 on .503 during the regular season

show me anyone that said bird was best ever in 82
and i'll show you an idiot . . . was he even the
most dominant on his team ... parish avg
21/11 on .488 and 4blk in the playoffs

17/12 on .427 = far above magic?

.

was mr. skillset his team's best player 81 finals

was he even better than the doctor in 82
H2H doc avg 27 to bird's 19 during rs
and knocked him from the playoffs

magic in 82

18/9/9/3 on .537 in rs
17/11/9/3 on .529 in ps
16/11/8/2 on .533 and fmvp

led the league in steals

but bird's halfcourt game was vastly superior

incredible

.

first 4 years

bird
rs 22/11/5/2 on 48% ........ 18/8/9 on 53%
ps 20/12/5/2 on 45% ........ 18/10/10 on 50%
fin 15/15/7/2 on 42% ......... 19/11/8 on 55% 2f

1 title / zero fmvp ................. 2 titles / 2 fmvp

the only rookie ever to be named fmvp

. . . . . . . but that bird skillset

.

.

.

.

best ever

in 1986 a panel of 60 experts chose

kareem as the best player ever

oscar got 14 votes

bird got 4

from

red , cousy , kc jones and tommy heinsohn

[QUOTE=aau]in 1986 a panel of 60 experts chose

kareem as the best player ever

oscar got 14 votes

bird got 4

from

red , cousy , kc jones and tommy heinsohn[/QUOTE]

Not to Hi-jack the thread. This just show how underated Oscar has become on this board.

I'm not white and I'm not black.

I'm not a Laker fan and I'm not a Celtics fan.

I don't have bias in this argument. I really like Magic, but Bird is better. I don't understand how anyone can say Magic is better.

Magic is an amazing player, but Bird has a GOAT argument. Magic doesn't...

Well, you can say I am biased because Bird is one of my favorite players ever. But that's just because while watching him I am constantly amazed at what he does. I wonder if people who don't really understand basketball realize how well Larry played the game.

-Smak

I am a big Bird fan but how can you say Magic doesn't have a case?

I really love Bird's game - I wish players coming up tried to model themselves on him more than trying to imitate Jordan for example. He was a much more cerebral player, playing chess when everybody else is playing checkers. Magic has a very high basketball IQ too but IMO he lacked Bird's offensive threat when it came to shouldering the scoring himself. I also identify more with Bird's attitude towards the game too.

But amongst the top candidates for GOAT, it gets a bit subjective so I can see how people vote for Magic and he's got a fine case. Admittedly, on this forum there seems to be more clamour for Kareem than Magic from that Lakers team.

[QUOTE=aau]in 1986 a panel of 60 experts chose

kareem as the best player ever

oscar got 14 votes

bird got 4

from

red , cousy , kc jones and tommy heinsohn[/QUOTE]
Is this a joke?

At any rate the same people who trump up Bird are likely to be the same people that trump up Kareem. It's called downing Magic. Its the exact same agenda poster's here use.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Is this a joke?

At any rate the same people who trump up Bird are likely to be the same people that trump up Kareem. It's called downing Magic. Its the exact same agenda poster's here use.[/QUOTE]

Big Bird fan here and I'd take Magic over Kareem.

honestly

what does it really mean that kevin mchale led bird
in points and rebounds in both the 85 & 86 finals

what it means is that bird was outscored by a
teammate in 3 of his 5 final appearances

81 cornbrd 17 on .568 . . . bird 15 on .419
85 mchale 26 on .598 . . . bird 23 on .449
86 mchale 26 on .573 . .. bird 24 on .482

84 bird 27 on .484 . . . . no one was close
87 bird 24 on .445 . . . . dj 21 on .481

.

bird better than magic in 85?

84 was bird's absolute best season ........ magic's 85

rs 24/10/6 on .492 mvp .................. 18/6/12 on .561
ps 27/11/6 on .524 ......................... 17/7/15 on .513
fin 27/14/3 on .484 fmvp ................. 18/6/14 on .494

.

no doubt bird's best rs was in 85

28/10/6 on .522 . . . only oscar has done that

but again , , he str8 no-showed in the finals after coming
to the aid of a friend who was talking to another guy's
girl in a bar after G3 - knocked dude out cold with
one punch - - - but injured his right index finger

.

seeing that only a few can truly understand the ultrally-unique
impact he was having , , let's contextualize magic's numbers
knowing that not even the league understood their meaning

.

using basketball reference's game and season index
(final numbers since 1985 only)

to keep it somewhat close i'll use bird's 84 avgs

enter bird's rs 24/10/6 . . . . 3 names pop up - oscar bird wilt
enter bird's ps 27/11/6 . . . . one name pops up , twice - - oscar
bird's final avg 27/14/3 . . . . 6 names pop up incl td worthy lebron

somewhat rare performances indeed . . . just not moreso than magic's

.

enter magic's rs 18/6/12 . . . one name appears , 4x - magic
enter magic's ps 17/7/15 . . . one name appears , 2x - magic
magic's final avg 18/6/14 . . . one name appears , 2x - magic

that's individual finals games - - not finals averages

.

what really blows bird away is that this wasn't
even close to magic's best performance

1987

rs 24/6/12 on .522
ps 21/7/12 on .539
fin 26/8/13 on .541

no need to index these being that no one was
even close to his more pedestrian numbers

.

but strictly for schitts n giggles
let's remove an assist from his finals average

just 3 new names pop up

jordan had 36/8/12 game in 91 finals
lebron had 26/11/13 game vs thunder
mr.bird had 29/11/12 game vs rockets

.

that's all folks

[QUOTE=LeBird]Big Bird fan here and I'd take Magic over Kareem.[/QUOTE]

You haven't posted much but from what I see of you, I never see an agenda. You are uncommonly balanced.

[QUOTE=LeBird]Big Bird fan here and I'd take Magic over Kareem.[/QUOTE]

I think the thing with Magic Johnson is a 6'9" point guard is just so disruptive and creates crazy matchup problems. Bird used to create match-up problems on offense too, as the guys tall enough to guard him, usually weren't quick enough on the perimeter. Then if you put a smaller guy on him, he would take them inside. But this is still not nearly the matchup problems that Magic caused.

Magic was a threat to go coast-to-coast after any missed shot. Then in a half-court set, he almost always could see over or pass over the top of the defense. And once Magic's outside shot improved, he was just an offensive threat from virtually anywhere.

Magic's height and mobility allowed him to get so many easy baskets in his career. If the defense wasn't set, he could pretty much get to the rim on anyone. His FG% for his career is .520. That is pretty crazy for a point guard. Steve Nash is a crazy shooter now, but his career percentage is still under 50%. John Stockton's is .515 and he took 4 shots less per game than Magic.

Is there any top 15 point guard with a higher FG%?

Even Penny Hardaway at 6'7" never shot .520 for a single season, let alone a career.